Hopefully this will not cause a "thread drift" or "discussion creep " ; but do any here recall something from the old Makarov.com website detailing a proprietary catridge from NAA??IIRC;it was either a .380 or a 9X18 necked down to accommodate a .32 auto bullet...when fired frm a 4 inchconversion barrel on a Makarov it was fairly impressive;sort of a short cased Tokarev that couldalso be a "pocket rocket"...
Can a .32 ACP CC gun have enough balls to be a respectable defense gun?
- Thread starter wbond
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It was a 380 necked down to 32 cal.
1200fps from a guardian pistol.
Manufactured by CorBon and very expensive!
By the way it only has a 60gr bullet. Makes me wonder what the advantage be? With a 380 in gr, probably not that much slower and a bigger hole.
1200fps from a guardian pistol.
Manufactured by CorBon and very expensive!
By the way it only has a 60gr bullet. Makes me wonder what the advantage be? With a 380 in gr, probably not that much slower and a bigger hole.
Sure it can, if the shooter can place those little .32 bullets where they belong. Even if he/she can't, I think there are few circumstances where a mugger, robber, or other goblin is going to stick around to shoot it out with an armed opponent, regardless of caliber.
If I had a choice on what handgun to bring to a shootout, it'd be a hi-cap 45 auto. But realistically, they're a bear to carry and even worse to conceal except in a cold winter climate. Here in Texas, we never get that kind of winter. A light jacket is all I ever use and only that on occasion. The weather and associated clothing pretty much dictate compact pocket carry. And a .38 snubby or a .32ACP fill that need. Besides, I figure the probability of me ever needing to fire a shot in anger approaches zero. If that situation arises, I'll have something to defend myself with that in all likelihood will make the goblin stop, one way or another. I can also carry a bigger weapon in my vehicle, if need be.
For those who feel underarmed with a .32 or a .38, by all means carry a bigger more powerful weapon. Each of us needs to find his comfort zone for concealed carry.
If I had a choice on what handgun to bring to a shootout, it'd be a hi-cap 45 auto. But realistically, they're a bear to carry and even worse to conceal except in a cold winter climate. Here in Texas, we never get that kind of winter. A light jacket is all I ever use and only that on occasion. The weather and associated clothing pretty much dictate compact pocket carry. And a .38 snubby or a .32ACP fill that need. Besides, I figure the probability of me ever needing to fire a shot in anger approaches zero. If that situation arises, I'll have something to defend myself with that in all likelihood will make the goblin stop, one way or another. I can also carry a bigger weapon in my vehicle, if need be.
For those who feel underarmed with a .32 or a .38, by all means carry a bigger more powerful weapon. Each of us needs to find his comfort zone for concealed carry.
JR47
Member
The Italian Air Force issued the .32 ACP by choice, as did the Navy.
The German POLICE, whom you were addressing in the first place, used the Model 1934 Mauser, the Walther Model PP and PPk, all in .32 ACP. The German military also used large numbers of the Mauser HsC, the Walther PP and PPk. The German ARMY also issued large numbers of the Czech Vz-27, in .32 ACP. Source, the 2007 Standard catalog of Firearms by Dan Shideler.
The Glisenti pistol that you mentioned was accepted first, in 1906, by the Italian Army, in 7.65mm (.32ACP0, then in 1910 in 9mm Glisenti. They had been declared obsolete by the Italian Army in the 1930's, and replaced with the .32 ACP and .380 ACP pistols. They were used, along with even older Bodeo revolvers, as the war went poorly for them in Africa, and everywhere else. (2007 Standard Catalog of Firearms, page 511)
Also in the same book, page 460, "This model was adopted by police forces around the world." Caliber .32 ACP, Model 1910 New Model FN.
Again, on Page 993. "Pistol Sauer Model 1913, Police variations. These will be of the standard German Commercial configuration but nearly always having the Zusatzsicherung added to the pistol. Police used both calibers 6.35 and 7.65, but the 7.65 was predominant.
Then, they speak of the Imperial Military variations, Paramilitary marked pistols of the 1932-35 period, the Norwegian Police contracts of POST WWII.
On page 995, the 1930 variation, in 7.65mm (32ACP0 was used by the Dutch Police, the Amsterdam Police, the Dutch Navy, the S.M.N., and the Department of Finance.
Page 996, the Sauer Behorden Model, in 7.65mm. Police Model two Sunburst Acceptance models, and a Diamond in Sunburst Police Acceptance Model.
Page 997, Model 38H, in 7.65mm, two different Police Acceptance versions, and two separate military acceptance versions.
For pistols chambered in .32 ACP to be so "rare" in Police and military use, there sure are a lot of them cataloged and identified for collectors. I even left OUT the ones categorized as Rare.
Today, it's the main chambering. However, it was developed around the 7.65mm cartridge, and saw service in Europe mainly in that caliber. The 9x17 has always been mostly an American caliber.
My father, and all but one younger brother also fought in WWII. They do not presuppose to know what weapons, Model numbers, or calibers, were in use anywhere but in the theaters they fought in. He's still alive.
Really? The German's used the .32 and 9mm. The Italians used the .32, .380, 9mm Glisenti, and the 10.4 mm Bodeo Model 1889 revolver.
Russia used the 7.62x25. France used the 7.65 French Long. Spain used the 9mm Bergman. Britain issued the Webley and Enfield revolvers in .380/200 caliber. The Norwegians issued the license built Colt Model 1911 in .45 ACP. The Czechs used the CZ24 and CZ27, in 7.65mm.
The Scandinavian country of Sweden used the Lahti in 9x19. Denmark used the Model 1910-21 Bergman-Bayard, in 9mm B-B (9x23). Finland used the Lahti in 9x19 beginning in 1935. Poland used the Vis35 in 9x19, and the NG30 in 7.62 Nagant. Sweden used the Browning 1907 in a peculiar 9x29 Browning Long cartridge, and the Lahti in 9x19. America used the .45 ACP, and various .38 Special revolvers. General officers used the Remington in .32 or .380, depending on availability. Canada, Australia, British Indian and African militaries used the .38/200 revolvers.
It would seem that the larger participants, except for the Germans, used the 9x19 as the "substitute standard". NONE of them, except for the Italians used the .380 9x17 caliber for general issue.
I will certainly place more faith in multiple books than I ever would on the recollections of three men in their 80's. I applaud their service, though, and am thankful that they lived through the war.
Altogether, the .32 ACP, or 7.65mm Browning WAS used for decades by the Police of Europe. It wasn't until after the Munich Olympics debacle of 1972 that even the German Police standardized on the 9x19 caliber, though. In Europe, until that time, Police routinely issued rifles and sub-machineguns to Police officers in assignments where they might need additional firepower. You still see that in evidence in many European air-ports, even today. The European Police, like many in the European military, viewed the pistol as a badge of rank, or identification as part of the uniform.
Phil DeGraves
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Correct. However, the Beretta M1935, identical to the m1934 except in .32 ACP was in use with the Italian Navy during the time specified (Pre WW2).
JR47
Member
Careful or you'll be asked if you were in the Italian Armed Forces, too.
The model denomination is different so it's not a 1934
Choice for some departments when they could put their hand on the 1934model because of the war effort.
Source: "Le Armi Da Fuoco" by Ugo Venturoli, Sansoni editor 1972
A pistol can be not rare but it can be rare the use in police forces.
Since its introduction, in 1929, the Walther PP was chambered in .380 auto (9 mm Kurz in German)
So overall, can you tell me, in percentage, how many police and military forces in Europe used a caliber below the .380 auto versus the rest?
Maybe in the pistols you mentioned, they were also chambered in .32 ACP (i.e. the Walther PP) but that doesn't necessarely means that the police force used the 32 ACP version...do you find the specific information of the chambering used???
JR47
Member
No, just as you can't tell me the number of Police Forces in existence in Europe. I have posted more than enough examples of the .32 ACP pistol as accepted by the Police and military. It wasn't rare.
FYI, the .380 ACP PP and PPK were accepted into the German Army only in the closing days of the war. There is a single example of a Waffenamt Proof contract. "Standard catalog of Military Firearms, 3rd Edition, by Ned Schwing. Pages 138-146.
I actually listed the calibers employed by the Axis and Allies in WWII, and the .380 was used by SOME Italian forces for the years that they were combatants. The 9mm was also used by few WWII combatants as standard issue, predominantly the Germans, who issued the .32 ACP in a bewildering number of types that included those manufactured by captured plants.
I have no vested interest in how many Police Forces used what pistol, but, until the 1970s, it was not a standard issue cartridge in European Police Departments. Perhaps you, who made this claim, would deign to actually provide some proof?
I will respect it when it's in other's hand, because it can kill me.
I won't use it myself unless I have no choice, because it's far less likely to immediately stop a criminal than other calibers, even if it can kill the criminal hours after being hit.
I won't use it myself unless I have no choice, because it's far less likely to immediately stop a criminal than other calibers, even if it can kill the criminal hours after being hit.
Oh, and forget what Europians or some other countries are issuing. A lot of them makes choices based on totally stupid things.
Japanese patrol officer not being issued a gun at all does not mean that is a wise thing for people in US to do.
Korean police carrying their M10 with first and second cylinder either filled with blanks or nothing does not mean that's a smart practice.
I can't care less what Italian Military issued.
Just keep in mind that there are many agencies and many countries that makes equipment choices not based on what works best when the equipement actually get used.
At least countries like German and France learned the hard way and at least now they issue 9mm like they should have.
Only Europian governmental entitiy gun choices that interest me are choices made by people who actually depend on the performance of their weapon, such as GSG-9, SEK, GIGN, etc.
Japanese patrol officer not being issued a gun at all does not mean that is a wise thing for people in US to do.
Korean police carrying their M10 with first and second cylinder either filled with blanks or nothing does not mean that's a smart practice.
I can't care less what Italian Military issued.
Just keep in mind that there are many agencies and many countries that makes equipment choices not based on what works best when the equipement actually get used.
At least countries like German and France learned the hard way and at least now they issue 9mm like they should have.
Only Europian governmental entitiy gun choices that interest me are choices made by people who actually depend on the performance of their weapon, such as GSG-9, SEK, GIGN, etc.
Here it is some proof
You said the .380 was used by SOME Italian Forces...well just look at the production numbers:
The Beretta 1934 was produced in circa 1.5 million of pieces.
The Model 1935 just shy of half million.
(Source: le Armi da Fuoco, Ugo Venturoli Sansoni Editor 1972, Armi e Tiro the premier gun magazine in Italy, The Bolaffi Catalog, one of the major firearm publication in Europe)
In addition to the fact that the Model 1934 outproduced the Model 1935 by 3 to 1, The M1935 was sold also in the civilian market and was by far the most popular civilian pistol in Italy, with the later Model 70 (32 ACP) and one of the most popular self-defense civilian pistol in Europe with the Walther PP.
Beretta sold huge numbers of them to civilians. I do not have the actual figures, but I would bet that the civilian market outnumbered the military/police market by far.
Up the mid 90's the .380 Auto was considered a military caliber in Italy (and elsewhere in Europe too) so it was banned from civilian ownership
The civilian market for the M1934 opened up only for used pistols once the caliber was "demilitarized".
The Model 1935 was also extensively used by the municipal police.
In Italy there are 3 national police forces: Carabinieri, Polizia di Stato and Guardia di Finanza, then every city has what is called municipal police, Vigili Urbani in Italian, mainly for urban traffic regulation and municipal law administration, they do not have heavy law enforcement duties...for example, they give you a ticket for parking in the wrong place.
Being the local municipal force considered civilian personnel, they were banned from using the .380 auto or any other military caliber.
Same thing for the Forestal Service....they wre considered a civilian force so banned from using militay caliber....they did use the model 1935 extensively.
So I confirm, again, (you are free to believe it or not) that the 32 ACP saw limited service in Italy's armed forces or national police forces (excluding municipal police or forestal service, as I said).
However, the 32 ACP was the most popular civilian defensive round in Italy (along with the 38 Special for revolvers) with the 25 ACP a distant second, before the advent of the 9 X 21 IMI and the liberalization of the .380 Auto for civilians.
The rule for military calibers, at least in Italy has been relaxed during the years.
Up to 30 and more years ago, any caliber (rifle or pistol) that was at some point used by any official military force in the world was banned from civilian ownership, except for former police or military officers. The antique service rifles with tampered bolt mechanism and permanent plugged breech in order to be sold to civilians were a sad thing of that time.
Later on, the rule was eliminated for rifle calibers, then, one by one, for pistol calibers (45 ACP, .380 Auto, etc..)
Today only the 9 mm Luger (universally known as 9 mm Parabellum over there) is banned from civilian ownership in Italy, and this is the reason of the enormous success of the 9 X 21 IMI chambering in the Italian civilian market for pistols.
The rationale for this surviving limitation is that the 9 mm caliber is used in highly concealable sub-machine guns (for example UZIs) which is a big no-no for civilians.
I'm sure, one day, even this last barrier will crumble.
In France, instead, there is still a strict "no military caliber of the past or present for civilians" rule...., for example, you cannot own a 30-06 rifle in France....or a Mosin Nagant for that matter.
However, as some people believe in USA, this has nothing to do with the power itself of the caliber (I read all the time comments like: In Europe governments do not trust civilians owning too much powerful calibers)
It is just a limitation intended to prevent civilians to use military weaponry they could put their hands on.
In Italy, or France, you still can own a Desert Eagle .50 AE, a 460 Weatherby Magnum or a 44 Magnum Revolver.
For example, the 8 X 64S Brenneke is a very popular high power rifle round in France, once it was never used by any military force, it is allowed.
You said the .380 was used by SOME Italian Forces...well just look at the production numbers:
The Beretta 1934 was produced in circa 1.5 million of pieces.
The Model 1935 just shy of half million.
(Source: le Armi da Fuoco, Ugo Venturoli Sansoni Editor 1972, Armi e Tiro the premier gun magazine in Italy, The Bolaffi Catalog, one of the major firearm publication in Europe)
In addition to the fact that the Model 1934 outproduced the Model 1935 by 3 to 1, The M1935 was sold also in the civilian market and was by far the most popular civilian pistol in Italy, with the later Model 70 (32 ACP) and one of the most popular self-defense civilian pistol in Europe with the Walther PP.
Beretta sold huge numbers of them to civilians. I do not have the actual figures, but I would bet that the civilian market outnumbered the military/police market by far.
Up the mid 90's the .380 Auto was considered a military caliber in Italy (and elsewhere in Europe too) so it was banned from civilian ownership
The civilian market for the M1934 opened up only for used pistols once the caliber was "demilitarized".
The Model 1935 was also extensively used by the municipal police.
In Italy there are 3 national police forces: Carabinieri, Polizia di Stato and Guardia di Finanza, then every city has what is called municipal police, Vigili Urbani in Italian, mainly for urban traffic regulation and municipal law administration, they do not have heavy law enforcement duties...for example, they give you a ticket for parking in the wrong place.
Being the local municipal force considered civilian personnel, they were banned from using the .380 auto or any other military caliber.
Same thing for the Forestal Service....they wre considered a civilian force so banned from using militay caliber....they did use the model 1935 extensively.
So I confirm, again, (you are free to believe it or not) that the 32 ACP saw limited service in Italy's armed forces or national police forces (excluding municipal police or forestal service, as I said).
However, the 32 ACP was the most popular civilian defensive round in Italy (along with the 38 Special for revolvers) with the 25 ACP a distant second, before the advent of the 9 X 21 IMI and the liberalization of the .380 Auto for civilians.
The rule for military calibers, at least in Italy has been relaxed during the years.
Up to 30 and more years ago, any caliber (rifle or pistol) that was at some point used by any official military force in the world was banned from civilian ownership, except for former police or military officers. The antique service rifles with tampered bolt mechanism and permanent plugged breech in order to be sold to civilians were a sad thing of that time.
Later on, the rule was eliminated for rifle calibers, then, one by one, for pistol calibers (45 ACP, .380 Auto, etc..)
Today only the 9 mm Luger (universally known as 9 mm Parabellum over there) is banned from civilian ownership in Italy, and this is the reason of the enormous success of the 9 X 21 IMI chambering in the Italian civilian market for pistols.
The rationale for this surviving limitation is that the 9 mm caliber is used in highly concealable sub-machine guns (for example UZIs) which is a big no-no for civilians.
I'm sure, one day, even this last barrier will crumble.
In France, instead, there is still a strict "no military caliber of the past or present for civilians" rule...., for example, you cannot own a 30-06 rifle in France....or a Mosin Nagant for that matter.
However, as some people believe in USA, this has nothing to do with the power itself of the caliber (I read all the time comments like: In Europe governments do not trust civilians owning too much powerful calibers)
It is just a limitation intended to prevent civilians to use military weaponry they could put their hands on.
In Italy, or France, you still can own a Desert Eagle .50 AE, a 460 Weatherby Magnum or a 44 Magnum Revolver.
For example, the 8 X 64S Brenneke is a very popular high power rifle round in France, once it was never used by any military force, it is allowed.
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Hollywood Marine
Member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2008
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- 84
Well, I once knew a bodyguard for an arab sheik who carried a colt woodsman match target. When I asked about the .22's effectiveness, he lined up 8 coke bottles on a fence rail, necks facing him, walked about 20 feet, turned, drew, and shot the bottoms out of all eight, rapid fire.
As for me, I'll stick to my 1911 and my shotgun.
As for me, I'll stick to my 1911 and my shotgun.
JR47
Member
You are the expert in Italian arms, then. However, Italy isn't Europe. You are aware that Beretta sold the Spanish .32 ACP semi-auto pistols to the civilian population? Or that many of the Model 1889 Bodeo revolvers still in service in WWII were actually manufactured by Spain's Orbea Hermanos, as the Model 1916? Or that Italy bought and issued the Spanish Ruby pistols prior to, and again, during WWII? These were also in .32 ACP. Source is Spanish Hanguns by Gene Gangarosa, Jr., 2001.
How large were the Italian municipal or forestal services?
If, as you say, the Municipal Police aren't involved in actual law enforcement, why are they armed, at all?
Your proof is appreciated, but it's really not what you were talking about. Again, Italy isn't Europe. You stated that the .32 ACP wasn't accepted into national or military service in Europe. Even as you do so, you acknowledge that even the Italian Armed Forces used it. The German Army's non-infantry standard was the .32 ACP. The German and Dutch Police, along with the Belgians, French, Spanish, and many other police forces used the .32 ACP. The parsing of even the Italian police into National and Municipal is a manipulation of your statement. The Italian Municipal Police do much the same thing as out Local LEOs in many cases. Smaller Departments all over the United States do little more than control non-violent crime, calling in better-equipped forces to deal with serious criminal cases.
The simple fact remains that the .32 ACP WAS a common issue for Police in Europe for decades.
How large were the Italian municipal or forestal services?
If, as you say, the Municipal Police aren't involved in actual law enforcement, why are they armed, at all?
Your proof is appreciated, but it's really not what you were talking about. Again, Italy isn't Europe. You stated that the .32 ACP wasn't accepted into national or military service in Europe. Even as you do so, you acknowledge that even the Italian Armed Forces used it. The German Army's non-infantry standard was the .32 ACP. The German and Dutch Police, along with the Belgians, French, Spanish, and many other police forces used the .32 ACP. The parsing of even the Italian police into National and Municipal is a manipulation of your statement. The Italian Municipal Police do much the same thing as out Local LEOs in many cases. Smaller Departments all over the United States do little more than control non-violent crime, calling in better-equipped forces to deal with serious criminal cases.
The simple fact remains that the .32 ACP WAS a common issue for Police in Europe for decades.
The Italian municipal police forces are armed more as an ornament than real need. No serious law enforcement....at most they stop you for speeding. It is more an administrative corp than anything else. Some of these "policemen" (yes it is a stretch to call these department "police" because their duties are different than the accepted word for Police in USA) are not even armed in some occasion and circumstances.
Every city has one...you can go from literally a one man force for very very small villages to thousands for cities with more than a million residents.
Italy has thousands of cities. So, in the aggregate is not a small numbers of men, however is a SMALL percentage compared to the 3 national police forces and the armed forces
I don't know how many in the forestal service, but for sure they are in the several thousands
As I said, these corps could not be issued with a .380 ACP or a 9 mm sidearms because they were considered a military caliber and so banned from civilian use.
My clarification about the municipal police is not a "manipulation" just a detailed explanation.
And no, the Municipal Police cannot be compared to your local LEO even in the smallest city in the US.
If a bank robbery happen in "anytown USA population 5000", probably if you dial 911 the call go to the small city police force or the county sheriff...a local LEO would get involved in a potential standout or chase.
The same in an homicide scene.....the local police would get involved at least initially and/or support the investigation.
The Italian Vigili Urbani (Municipal Police) NEVER EVER get involved in something like that. They are not connected to an emergency number at all.
The correct translation of Vigili urbani should really be "Traffic Police"
If a robbery suspect car would literally cross their way they would call the national police and absolutely, not get involved in a chase. They could get in trouble for doing this as overstepping their authorities. They have no power to arrest anyway...more of this later.
Every small town in Italy, not matter how small, has a local national police force to carry out law enforcement duties (and "heavy" traffic regulation too like speeding control....yes they do overlap with the municipal police in that regard except that the national police will never give you a ticket for parking) and sometimes more than one station for the other of the 3 national police forces. If the city is even a little bit bigger, you will have stations for all 3 national police forces. If a citizen from that city call an emergency number, for any reason, even just a noisy neighbour, the call would go directly to the local national police station or the fire department if is appropriate for the type of emergency. The Municipal police is out of the loop.
As I said before, they do not even have the power to arrest..they can stop you within the limit of their duties (traffic control) but to carry out an actual arrest they need to call the National Police. They work 9 to 5 then go home, unless they need to regulate traffic for some events. Outside of their duties and service hours they are regular citizens.
I don't know if we have something like that in the US...Italy can be a bit byzantine when it comes to laws and regulations.
Yes Beretta sold tons of 32 ACP pistols everywhere in the civilian market in Europe. In Italy the word "7,65" and "Beretta" were synonyms.
And I never said the 32 ACP was not accepted, I said, initially, extremely rare and I was wrong, so I corrected myself and say not that common.
At this point would be interesting to see in what percentage the caliber was used in the past for police/military work in Europe. it would be an interesting figure to look at.
If it is 30% or less, in my opinion, it would still support the "not that common" statement.
Every city has one...you can go from literally a one man force for very very small villages to thousands for cities with more than a million residents.
Italy has thousands of cities. So, in the aggregate is not a small numbers of men, however is a SMALL percentage compared to the 3 national police forces and the armed forces
I don't know how many in the forestal service, but for sure they are in the several thousands
As I said, these corps could not be issued with a .380 ACP or a 9 mm sidearms because they were considered a military caliber and so banned from civilian use.
My clarification about the municipal police is not a "manipulation" just a detailed explanation.
And no, the Municipal Police cannot be compared to your local LEO even in the smallest city in the US.
If a bank robbery happen in "anytown USA population 5000", probably if you dial 911 the call go to the small city police force or the county sheriff...a local LEO would get involved in a potential standout or chase.
The same in an homicide scene.....the local police would get involved at least initially and/or support the investigation.
The Italian Vigili Urbani (Municipal Police) NEVER EVER get involved in something like that. They are not connected to an emergency number at all.
The correct translation of Vigili urbani should really be "Traffic Police"
If a robbery suspect car would literally cross their way they would call the national police and absolutely, not get involved in a chase. They could get in trouble for doing this as overstepping their authorities. They have no power to arrest anyway...more of this later.
Every small town in Italy, not matter how small, has a local national police force to carry out law enforcement duties (and "heavy" traffic regulation too like speeding control....yes they do overlap with the municipal police in that regard except that the national police will never give you a ticket for parking) and sometimes more than one station for the other of the 3 national police forces. If the city is even a little bit bigger, you will have stations for all 3 national police forces. If a citizen from that city call an emergency number, for any reason, even just a noisy neighbour, the call would go directly to the local national police station or the fire department if is appropriate for the type of emergency. The Municipal police is out of the loop.
As I said before, they do not even have the power to arrest..they can stop you within the limit of their duties (traffic control) but to carry out an actual arrest they need to call the National Police. They work 9 to 5 then go home, unless they need to regulate traffic for some events. Outside of their duties and service hours they are regular citizens.
I don't know if we have something like that in the US...Italy can be a bit byzantine when it comes to laws and regulations.
Yes Beretta sold tons of 32 ACP pistols everywhere in the civilian market in Europe. In Italy the word "7,65" and "Beretta" were synonyms.
And I never said the 32 ACP was not accepted, I said, initially, extremely rare and I was wrong, so I corrected myself and say not that common.
At this point would be interesting to see in what percentage the caliber was used in the past for police/military work in Europe. it would be an interesting figure to look at.
If it is 30% or less, in my opinion, it would still support the "not that common" statement.
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lefteyedom
Member
I beleave that a 32 acp and a Louiville Slugger have the same effective range,,,,,
usp9
Member
Yes, 500 feet and a home run!
dpatten
Member
I have a feeling that the .32 cal pistols issued by the militaries of Europe were primarily to Officers rather than enlisted men and were more in the way of a "badge of authority" than something intended for combat. The same with the police issued weapons. Prior to WW1 an officer might have carried a sword, for the same purpose, " Hey, look at me I'm in charge."
springer7676
Member
Hatcher Ratings/interesting
THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
2/22/2003
Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 11:34:22 PM by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.
You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.
Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating
.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1
.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7
.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3
*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8
.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6
*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5
.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54
*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80
10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3
10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1
.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4
.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4
.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7
*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7
**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7
**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5
.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6
.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2
9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3
9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9
.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3
.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1
.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7
.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2
* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.
* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round
THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
2/22/2003
Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 11:34:22 PM by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.
You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.
Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating
.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1
.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7
.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3
*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8
.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6
*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5
.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54
*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80
10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3
10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1
.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4
.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4
.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7
*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7
**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7
**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5
.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6
.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2
9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3
9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9
.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3
.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1
.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7
.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2
* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.
* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round
I'm not a cop and am not going to corner a BG to where he has to shoot his way out.
A self defense gun needs to end an attack and I believe that 99 times out of a hundred, if you punch a hole clean through someone, with a 32, 380 or just about any caliber they are going to retreat if they can.
I think this perpetual caliber argument is way overblown when it comes to self defense.
A self defense gun needs to end an attack and I believe that 99 times out of a hundred, if you punch a hole clean through someone, with a 32, 380 or just about any caliber they are going to retreat if they can.
I think this perpetual caliber argument is way overblown when it comes to self defense.
thunder173
Member
Carried a Walther PP in .32 for many years. Never felt undergunned with it within it's limitations. It was my cc and occasional back up. I avoided firefights whenever possible. Not as good as some,...but a whole lot better than many. YMMV
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