Can a .32 ACP CC gun have enough balls to be a respectable defense gun?

[mljdeckard]

Duke is illustrating this perfectly.

A LOT has changed in the hundred years that people originally started carrying the .32. Back than, if for some reason you HAD to carry a very small concealable gun, (When again, I doubt any of you NEED a gun that small, you are just unwilling to adjust your lifestyle and wardrobe for the most important piece of equipment you can carry, and you think being a teeny bit more comfortable is more important than being alive,) it was the only choice, a very small caliber handgun. THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE. There are MANY compact and subcompact options in many brands which are much more likely to stop the actions of the person you are shooting at.

And yes, there are many accounts of .25 failing to penetrate clothing, skin, and bone. Especially various combinations of the three. If you ever have to try to put someone down, with their side to you, weird angle, thick clothing, your chance of doing anything other than making them mad is pretty much zero. I don't PLAY with guns at all, but if you could somehow envision a situation where I were forced to pick a gun to get shot with and hope for the best, it would absolutely be a .25 acp, from a 1-2" barrel, wearing a leather biker jacket and a sweater. It's a gun, but it's by far the WORST gun that exists.

For the third time in this thread: ALL PISTOL ROUNDS ARE INADEQUATE FOR SELF-DEFENSE. You need to give yourself every possible advantage. In picking the worst pistol rounds you can, you are saying that you are willing to carry a gun and kill someone, but not do everything you can to save your life. It just doesn't make sense. And again, the last thing you will think before you squeeze the trigger on that Jennings at a charging bad guy; "I really REALLY wish I had ANY gun besides this one at this moment."

 

[Phil DeGraves]

And again, the last thing you will think before you squeeze the trigger on that Jennings at a charging bad guy; "I really REALLY wish I had ANY gun besides this one at this moment."

+1 on that. Jim Cirillo said that anytime you get into a gunfight you will ALWAYS wish you had something bigger with more bullets. As comfortable and confident as we are when carrying our concealed guns around, when faced with a real defensive situation, they all seem paltry and inadequate.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Underpowered, sure---but it's all relative.

I'm very fond of my Colt 1903 Pocket for sentimental reasons and because it is accurate, tight and reliable-----and it's just plain classy and elegant.

 

[mbt2001]

...there are many accounts of .25 failing to penetrate clothing, skin, and bone.

This is as untrue a statement as I have read on this board. Bullets "bouncing off" of things is a function of angle, nothing more. No one would say this about a .22, but when said about the .25 it is believed. Yes yes, it is a small round, but it isn't as useless as people claim. It has racked up a sizable body count.

In Europe, the .32 and .380 were once standard issue and thought to be adequate for the task of police and military. Human physiology hasn't changed. What has changed, is the MAGNUM craze that recently infected hunters has transitioned to all shooters.

I agree that you should carry a bigger gun where possible, but Decker, you are welcome to come visit me in Texas in August... I would love to see you trying to lug a 32. oz 5" gun or even a 22 oz 3" gun in 100 degree / 90% humidity. You can't wear enough clothes to cover it and if you do, heat stroke is a real possibility.

Jim Wilson and other gun "fighters" have said that Center Mass hits stop gun fights. The newest toy doesn't.

 

[mljdeckard]

It's VERY true, and VERY believeable. It has terrible velocity and ballistic coefficient.

When I was a teenager, one of my less intelligent friends had TWO NDs with one. I was not present, but he called me to help him out. one penetrated one layer of sheetrock from across the room. It stopped in the second layer from pretty much a head-on angle 20 feet away. The second time, he put one through the door of the glovebox in his old Pontiac. I found it in the glovebox. (He's still alive, but no longer allowed to posess a firearm.) We used to shoot it a lot, at logs, rocks, etc. It was unpredictable, and it NEVER penetrated very far. We frequently found fragments and whole bullets near the targets which ricocheted a short distance.

I have a friend who was a biker/bail bondsman/skip tracer when I was in high school. After one wild weekend, he showed us his back and shoulder and his jacket. Two small nasty bruises, on his back and shoulder. One of the bruises had some torn skin around it. He was picking up a jumper, when the guy's old lady ran out of the trailer and shot at him as he was getting into his van. He drove away as fast as he could, because he thought he was wounded. When he locked the guy up and went to an ER, they offered him stitches, and he refused. He showed us one .25 slug he found in the van afterwards near the driver's seat. He couldn't find the other two. (One hit the driver's side window.) One long, rough hole in the jacket. (He retired shortly thereafter.) I have taken classes from more than one cop who saw a .25 hit that did not penetrate heavy clothing.

It absolutely IS all about angles. And if you are shooting at someone with heavy clothing, at a bad angle, smaller calibers are much less likely to penetrate.

And again, even if you really think you need a very small gun, there are numerous options in different brands in full-size calibers that are much more effective, and highly concealable. Last summer I went to El Paso and hunted javelina with my little brother. I carried a rifle, wore full-covered clothes, and concealed a full-size 1911 the whole time. Maybe you just can't take the heat.

 

[Vonderek]

Human physiology hasn't changed.

Have to disagree on that. Human physiology has changed quite a bit. 100 years ago the average male in this country was about 5'7" and maybe 130-140 lbs. Nowadays you can add about 50 lbs to that. Just 20 years ago it was rare to see a 300 lb person. Now you see them everyday. Years ago .32 ACP probably was deemed more effective than it is today because you didn't have as much fat or muscle to penetrate. I have no statistics to back up this claim but it seems like a plausible theory.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

mljdeckard, good info...solid info....thanks.

 

[PRM]

I don't carry a .25, personally never saw the benefit when larger calibres come in the same size firearm. Having said that, I worked a suicide several years back where the deceased used a .25 Baby Browning. The FMJ round passed completely through his head, the side of the high backed chair he was sitting in, and lodged in the wall next to it. While it would be far from the best choice for defense - it will kill a person.

Far as .32s, that issue has been beat to death on this and other forums. Seecamp, NAA, Kel-Tec, Beretta, Walther and vintage Colts just to name a few have their followings, and when you get down to it its all personal preference.

 

[jjohnson]

No.

Sorry. "NO" is the answer, unless you're defending yourself against hamsters, and then, you'd have to rely on careful shot placement and a bit of luck.

I've shot a godalmightyplenty bunch of ammo in the last 45 years, small and large, and I think, regardless how you measure (wound channel, hydrostatic shock, kinetic energy, whatever) "Big" is "Better." And velocity helps, as does good bullet design.

The 32 is lacking in every measurement outside of concealability. I like the .40 as a baseline unless you're packing a .357 with good hollowpoints. I grudginly accept a .380 with good hollowpoints only because I have a Makarov in .380 and that pistol is handy/concealable/accurate/reliable beyond all expectations.

Any .44 or .45 suits me much better, revolver or auto, but sorry, if I had to carry a 32 to protect myself, I think I'd also be carrying a club or nunchucks.

 

[1SOW]

If you use a .22 it would be cheaper to practice with. Use a 5"+ barrel, Stingers or Yellowjackets, very careful placement, close range and empty the gun.
OK, I'm being snotty, but I watched a good shooter shoot a 3.5" 38cal
revolver and hit steel poppers that 9mm knocks down easily. The bullets literally bounced off and didn't knock down the poppers.
I know! I know! Load up the .38 (or .32) etc etc and it will do better. The 9mms that easily knocked down the poppers were subsonic target ammo.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Kokapelli, I was referring to shooters in general not just 45 shooters. The caliber of the weapon has little to do with the ability of the shooter to shoot well. Nor does it determine the will and mindset of the person wielding the weapon. It doesn't matter what a person carries if he has never prepared himself for the possibility of using it. Just going to the range once in a while doesn't prepare a person to pull the trigger on someone else.
Also, its been my experience that most people don't shoot nearly as well as they think they do either.

 

[gazpacho]

Krochus

I do have some familiarity with the FBI 1986 Miami Shootout. As it was, 2 badguys died, 2 agents died and 5 were wounded. Most catastrophic would 8 agents dead, and 2 badguys surviving and killing further people.

My point was, going back to the OP, if the agents were armed with 32acp handguns, instead of 9mm double stacks (S&W 459), 357s loaded with 38sp and a 12g shotgun, the most catastrophic case might have actually happened.

(Yeah, yeah, I know Wikipedia isn't the best source, but in this case it's good enough for the discussion.)

 

[Mach2]

MBT2001 said:

In Europe, the .32 and .380 were once standard issue and thought to be adequate for the task of police and military

Mach2 replies:

Dos anybody have a clue why the 9x18 Makarov has gone out of style in Europe? It is my favorit round. I thought it was the best personal defense ammo ever made. Not to big and definately not too small.

 

[regal]

If we are going to shoot someone in SD and not go to prison, it will be at very close range.

At 10 feet do you honestly think you are that bad a shot that you can't stop someone with 7 shots from a Keltec P-32 ?

I can unload 7 shots from a P-32 in about a third the time it takes to do the same with a PF-9.

I am safer carrying a P-32 than any other <15 oz handgun in existance.

In comparison to the bigger heavier guns yes the P-32 loses, but things are not that bad where I do business to warrant a change in lifestyle (carrying 1.5 pounds of steel.)

 

[RX-178]

Your opening question is an extremely subjective one.

First, do you already own a .32 pistol? Have you practiced with it? Are you comfortable operating it and carrying it? Is it easy to hit the target with?

If the answer to those questions is 'yes', then your .32 pistol is a perfectly adequate defense gun, much moreso than a large caliber pistol that you are NOT comfortable with, have NOT practiced with, and let's not forget, is going to cost you a couple hundred dollars.

If you DON'T already have this weapon, I would suggest a larger caliber handgun, but first and foremost, you need to find one you are comfortable using. Odds are, you will find a larger handgun to be MORE comfortable, and easier to operate.

Use the hardware to match your software, and learn to use the gun that you've got.

 

[saturno_v]

Wbond

To annswer to your very long post (which sound a bit like an advertisement for Fiocchi....) with only one word..

Why???

Today you have several pocketable choices in full power calibers and some are rather inexpensive, +P rated and very reliable....Bersa Thunder Compact, Kel-Tec P-11 among them.

I carry regularly a P-11 in my pocket with a flush 12 round magazine...use a +P ammo and you can get over 400 ft/lb at the muzzle with a 115 gr bullet (well a bit less because you have a 3 inch barrel...but you get the point) ....that is a pocket powerhouse.

On top of that, consider the cost of ammunition...32 ACP ammo cost significantly more than 9 mm on average in the US...

Guys for your information...

32 ACP were EXTREMELY uncommon among police forces in Europe....some local small city police forces but not on a national level or in the military.

Usually, the lowest they did go in the old continent in the past is 380 auto....but 9 mm were the vast majority and nowdays (since more than 25 years) no national police force of military carry anything less than 9 mm.

In Italy, the military and police already used the Beretta 92 wonder nine when the vast majority of police forces in USA used 38 Super or 357 Mag wheelguns....talking abut firepower.....

 

[JR47]

32 ACP were EXTREMELY uncommon among police forces in Europe....some local small city police forces but not on a national level or in the military.

Now, I can understand the chest-beating of the uber-men who feel that they're going to have to stop 300 pound, drug-crazed, weight-lifters, and how they would disdain anything smaller than their chosen super death-ray caliber. However, the above statement is simply too wrong to ever have been posted by an adult.

The Italian Navy and Air Force of WWII issued the Model 1931/34 Beretta in .32 ACP. Multiple departments of the German government issued the Walther PP series in .32 ACP for Police and Security work.

The Czech Vz50, and the improved Vz70, were both chambered in .32 ACP for the national Police Force.

The Vz61 Skorpion was a machine pistol in .32 ACP that was issue to some units of the Czech military.

Belgian FN Model 1910 and 1922 pistols were used by Belgian Police, and by several Scandinavian Police Forces.

The French Army issued the Spanish Ruby pistol in the hundreds of thousands during WWI. Caliber? Why, .32 ACP.

The first NYPD issue pistol was the caliber S&W .32, a cartridge that makes the .32 ACP look strong.

The 1100 fps of the Fiocchi 32 APHP loading comes from here:

http://www.fiocchiusa.com/cat_centerfire.html

These threads seem to show only the intolerance, and stratification, of those who have chosen to carry "this", and anything else "is beneath consideration". After all, just like this, it's only an opinion, and we all know what portion of the anatomy they're like.

There are entire areas of the country where CCW isn't available to the average person. There are also areas where weather precludes some choices. Telling someone to "dress around" a gun, or to buy something else, no matter their finances, is advice that will be ignored.

Anecdotal stories are also useless. Remember, Marshall & Sanow had their information denigrated because of the lack of repeatable, scientific, results. Many of the posters here pile onto them regularly. Yet, they also supply the "my friend" stories, or the " I remember" tales of failures of various rounds on hostile trees, sheet-metal, or the mythical 300 pound, drug-crazed, weight-lifters. So, let me add in one.

In 1975, a co-worker was working part-time in Fels Point, Maryland. A part of Baltimore known for it's summer activities, and a plethora of bars and restaurants. He had one of the limited number of Maryland CCW permits issued by the MSP. As a manager, he made the night drop from the restaurant he worked in. He was accompanied by a uniformed Baltimore City Police Officer. As they approached the bank in their cars, he thought that he saw some movement near the Night Deposit Box. He asked the Officer to check, and remained in his car. The officer was taken under fire as he approached the building. At the same time, my friend was blocked by another vehicle, and the perp appeared from the driver's side, and demanded the money. My buddy was armed with a Savage Model 1910, in .32 ACP. He opened fire, hit the perp twice from about 12' away, and dropped him. The assailant was returning fire with a stolen Model 19 S&W.

Responding officers found a dead young man, with an armed robbery rap sheet, and captured a wounded man, another armed robbery "expert" that the cop had nicked. All in all, a satisfactory outcome. Does that mean that the .32 ACP is a killer in any circumstance? Of course not. Then again, it was in this case, and he, my friend and co-worker, hasn't had another incident these 33+ years later. He'll probably die an old man, never having to defend himself with ANY caliber again.

Use what you practice with. Nothing is a guaranteed winner. I've transported fighting subjects to the hospital with 5 rounds of 9mm +P+, from Beretta Model 92 pistols, to the chest and abdomen. They lived to stand trial. I've also cleared scenes with the ME for a 6' 2" 200 pound man that was shot ONCE with a .22 lr, from a 2" RG pistol, in the abdomen.

 

[kokapelli]

Sure 32cal pistols were used by law enforcement, but that was before compact 9mm pistols were available.

This has turned into a ridiculous argument. A 9mm will always be better than a 32 cal, but if you can't carry a 9mm for one reason or other, at least carry a 380.

 

[Z71]

The average handgun just ain't the deathray it is represented as on TV and peoples minds.

People worry about the caliber of their carry handgun, but hunt deer with nothing less than a hard hitting high powered rifle?

A more rational approach might be to hunt game with a .32 auto, and carry a .30-06 rifle for serious "human" situations.

I've done quite a bit of small game hunting with the various handguns and pistol cartridges. Based on shooting small creatures, none of the handgun cartridges are all that whoopee until you get to the .357 mag. Even the mighty .45 acp isn't much better at stopping cottontails than a .32 auto.

The .357 mag, .44 mag, and the bigger bruisers are powerful enough to be truely servicable killers. Most of the rest are just "hole pokers"! Some punch a small hole in the target, others poke a bigger hole in the target.

My opinion is that a .22 LR in a pistol is about as lethal as the average centerfire pistol caliber for small game. I've never shot any people, but I would think the deer rifle calibers would be more suited to the task.

Really it's a seriously moot point. just get yourself a quality handgun in a popular caliber(.32acp would be fine), shoot it enough to be competent in hitting your mark, and don't worry about it.

If you know your going to a firefight, then take the .30-06 rifle along. Your opposition will be surprised!

 

[saturno_v]

JR47

Have you ever been in the Italian service??

Well I did in the 80's and the Beretta 34 were a distant memory in the Navy, Army or Air Forces.

The Beretta 1934 was .380 Auto (9 mm Corto is the Italian denomination fo the caliber), never been a 32 ACP.

The Beretta 1931 (.32 ACP) was issued to SOME department of the navy (mainly to cover shortages of the 1934) up to the mid 40's

My father was an officer in the Italian Air Forces in the 50's....sidearm?? Beretta 1934 .380 ACP.

2 of my uncles were officers in WWII (Army and Navy).....Beretta 1934 .380 ACP

Some departments of the Italian Royal Navy (Italy before 1946 was a monarchy and that was the official definition of the navy: "Regia Marina") before WWII even used the Mauser "broom handle" in 9 mm para or 7.63 Mauser I don't recall.

The examples you mentioned still support my statement...the 32 ACP was adopted in SOME cases, SOME forces and SOME countries.

Europe is a big continent with more than 25 countries you know....

And however has been DECADES since the 32 ACP has been considered an adequate service sidearm. And when it was is because of the convenient size and occultability, not because was really considerated up to the task, power wise.

Maybe, I repeat, maybe in some small village in Italy or elsewhere the local 4-5 men police force still uses the caliber.....it doesn't make it common.

 

[kokapelli]

saturno_v, thanks for clearing that up. The internet is great but we need to be careful because we get so much misinformation over it.

I kind of figured what you posted was the case but I had no way of proving it.

 

[saturno_v]

I forgot to add...

My grandfather fought in WWI in the Carabinieri force (a corp of the italian army that serves as MP, regular combat in war time and civilian police force as well, alongside the regular Police) and his service sidearm was a Beretta 1915 in 9 mm Glisenti caliber.
Before that, he was issued a big service revolver in a large caliber (10.4 mm Ordinanza Italiana)

The 9 mm Glisenti was similar to the 9 mm Parabellum but a bit less powerful, still significantly more potent than the .380 Auto and the 32 ACP.

 

[JR47]

32 ACP were EXTREMELY uncommon among police forces in Europe....some local small city police forces but not on a national level or in the military.

This is your quote. There is nothing in the wording of your statement that indicates current use, or there's a problem with the understanding of the word WERE. The entry statement that you responded to also mentioned that the European Police carried the .32 ACP in the past.

The usage of the Model 1931 and 1934 was taken from Jane's "Guns Recognition Guide", 1996. Pages 27-28. The Italian Air Force and Navy used the .32 ACP pistol. They were issue standards even before the Second World War began. You just skipped over the Czech pistols from the 1950's-1960's, the German Handguns of the Nazi Republic, and the Belgian and French .32 ACP guns of the WWI era.

What you say you mean isn't what you wrote.

All aside, it IS good to vet the information posted by those on the Internet. Some people have problems.

 

[saturno_v]

JR47

The .32 ACP handguns were not the MAIN equipment for the italian Navy and Air Foce, regardless of what the Gun Recognition Guide may say.
Yes they were issued to some departments and in certain circumstances (shortage of Beretta 1934 mainly, because of the WWII readiness effort).
So the Guide is somewhat and factually correct but, again, they were not the main standard issue. Guaranteed.
I talk not because of internet info but for personal experiences once I had 3 people in my family fighting in WWII on the Italian side and we have a military historian.

The Walther PP and PPK main caliber is the .380 auto not the 32 ACP.

Maybe , regarding the 32 ACP, I should not have said extremely rare but just rare as standard official issue.

You forgot the countless European handguns from every nation chambered in 9 mm Parabellum or in .380 ACP....who you think was using them?? The Japanese or in Africa??

Yes, You should not believe in everything you read on the internet or in every book...

 

[glockdriver]

North American Arms sure sells a lot of " .22 & .32 caliber mouse guns"
Had a news story here few years ago of a guy who had to fall back to his NAA .22 because he couldnt get to his 9mm under his winter coat. Results ? one bads guy down .one wounded
To each his own in my book