Can I get the straight scoop on NY, NJ and CA gun laws

[chaim]

I only want informed feedback. Actual information, actually answering my questions. I do not want to hear they suck, their Communist, stay out or any such nonsense (yeah, I'm aware of the overall situation there, and those comments aren't very helpful or constructive for my current situation).

Sure, being a gun guy I'd much prefer going someplace with better gun laws. However, having been unemployed for 5 months with no end in sight I can't afford to ignore the two largest job markets in the country. Being turned down and ignored for job after job due to my religious restrictions I can't afford to ignore the metropolitian area with the largest concentration of Orthodox Jews in the world, and another in the top 10 or so (areas with a lot of Orthodox Jews tend to have more employers who are familiar with our needs- NYC especially is fairly Orthodox Jewish friendly). Having most of my experience in an industry where Sat (the sabbath) is a normal working day and thus having trouble being hired (and having no chance for further promotion if I do get hired) means I can look to other industries (where my experience isn't as helpful), I can abandon my religion (not going to happen), or I can go to NY where plenty of branches are closed on Sat (both in the Jewish neighborhoods and in the business distict of Manahattan). Plus, I'm kinda getting involved with a girl who is an entertainment type so she pretty much has to be in either the NYC area or LA.

It isn't ideal, and I did want to go someplace better, but it isn't like I'm not used to a restrictive, anti-gun environment. I live in MD where virtually all new handguns are unavailable and we are limited to 20 round mags. I might not like it, but I could sell my 2 15 round CZ mags and my AR if I really needed to. Heck, being more of a handgun guy than a rifle guy (I love rifles, but I shoot handguns much more) I think having to go with a Mini-14 instead of the AR but then being able to buy most handguns again might be an improvement.

Anyway, my questions:

-NY:

My understanding of the situation in NY is that state law requires a permit to own guns. Localities don't really have stricter laws, the trouble comes in how/if they issue permits. Is that part accurate?

My understanding is that in NYC it is virtually impossible to get a permit to own a handgun. I also recall hearing something about a 5 gun limit. Are those two ideas correct? Some people do seem to legally own handguns in NYC, do you have to be "connected" or just wait a year or more (needless to say, neither is acceptable, I'm just curious)?

If so, is it all of NYC or just Manhattan? Would Brooklyn be different?

How far out of NYC do you have to go to be able to own handguns? I know, technically you can own them in NYC, I mean realistically. Are there some NYC suburbs with similar enforcement of the law, or are they going to be easier?

I know in parts of NY you can get a permit that allows not just ownership but carry as well. Are there any jurisdictions near NYC where carry is realistic? Outside of NYC is there anything that is banned?


-NJ:

Yeah, we all have heard about the assault weapons laws and the hollow points (which as I understand it is exaggerated, as I understand it you can use HPs in your home defense gun, and I think you can shoot them at the range, you just can't have them outside the home). What exactly do they entail?

Other than selling my AR and all my 10+ round mags am I ok? Mini-14s are ok if I want one, right? My Benelli Nova looks kinda scary and non-PC, but it is a basic tubular mag, 18.5" HD 12ga. No problems with that, right? I heard the internet story of people being arrested for rimfires with tubular mags over 10 rounds (specifically the Marlin 60), true or internet/urban myth? Pretty much all handguns are legal right? No carry there, just like no carry here.

Are all the laws state, or do localities have the ability to make the life of a gun owner even worse? Are there any jurisdictions where handguns, shotguns or rifles that are state legal would be illegal? Would I have to register my guns to bring them into the state, and if so is there a graceperiod for new residents or would I have to have them registered before I brought them in- in other words, what would I need to do to bring my guns in and be legal?


CA:

Are all the laws state, or do localities have the ability to ban gun ownership? What am I looking at in the LA area? Are there any areas in the LA area where CCW is possible (yeah, a pipe dream, I know...but I had to ask)?

My understanding is I'd be looking at much the same thing as NJ- no over 10 round mags, no AR (out of what I own). I keep hearing about a list for handguns- is that just for sales or if I bought a gun legally here in MD that isn't on the list would I have to sell it before bringing it into CA? Could I own it but just not sell it or would I have to get rid of it?

Is there manditory registration? Would I have to register my guns to bring them into the state, and if so is there a grace period for new residents or would I have to have them registered before I brought them in- in other words, what would I need to do to bring my guns in and be legal?

 

[Wiley]

The only way to get the truth is to search the official codes of those states. I think that NY, NJ and, CA will have them on line and searchable.

I would start off with packing.org which will give you a general overview and (I think) links to the state codes.

 

[RepublicanMan]

If you don't mind a commute of an hour or more, think about eastern PA......good gun laws (relatively speaking) and you can commute to Jersey or NYC with relative ease.

 

[Gray Peterson]

My understanding is that in NYC it is virtually impossible to get a permit to own a handgun. I also recall hearing something about a 5 gun limit. Are those two ideas correct? Some people do seem to legally own handguns in NYC, do you have to be "connected" or just wait a year or more (needless to say, neither is acceptable, I'm just curious)?

Let's get a few things straight.

There are different classes of pistol licenses in the state of New York. Premise licenses are considered for the most part "shall-issue", even in NYC. Problem is that the NYPD license division tends to be extraordinarily slow to issue. 6 months is the maximum time allowed by state law, but because there's no "penalty", some places take longer, like NYC.

As for "well connected people getting permits", you're talking about subsection F licenses, the ones that are issued to have an carry concealed regardless of work or need. Yep, only the rich tend to get those.

Here's another gotcha. They will not issue Subsection F restricted licenses to anyone except the aformented people. They used to years ago for target shooters. Now they don't anymore because they realized that they couldn't nail you for a carrying without authorization and have you arrested. Carrying outside of your restrictions on a subsection F license would only get you nailed for an "administrative violation" (which may result in your permit getting yanked, but no criminal charges).

Now all they do is stamp target shooting or some such on a premise permit and basically tell you "They won't enforce it against you if you're only target shooting". Which is bull. If you target shoot on a premise permit you're in violation of the law. I think there may be a lawsuit being planned against this, but I don't know the details.

 

[Gray Peterson]

Again someone can correct me if I'm wrong about NYC. You could try living upstate, like in Orange or Putnam County, and take Metro North Railroad to commute to work. It's an idea.

California may be a better idea. Unlike NY State, where if you are lucky to get a full on S(F) Pistol License, it isn't valid in NYC, if you get a permit in any locality or county in the state, your CCW is valid statewide, even in Los Angeles or San Francisco.

You have to register your handguns at least (I dunno about other firearms) within 60 days of arriving in California with the DOJ-Firearms Division.

CalDOJ Firearms Section

I believe that San Bernadino issues, and so does Kern County. I dunno how far of a drive it is, but San Bernadino would probably be your best bet for getting a permit, because you can forget getting on if you live in LA County, or San Diego. Orange isn't too bad, but you need something more than just general self defense.

Btw, it isn't illegal to have two residences in CA and to use a less commonly used residence for your CCW application.

 

[WT]

NJ

It is highly recommended that one get a firearms ID card ASAP.

One can purchase and possess hollowpoints as long as they are kept on ones property or fired at a range. Transportating to and fro is okay.

One can own magazines not exceeding 15 rounds capacity. Some claim the limit is 10 but they give me a gunshop commando as reference, not a statutory reference.

Some AR type rifles are permissible. I recently purchased a Bushmaster DCM in NJ. No big deal. Some Mini-14's are okay. There is a list in the NJ Statutes 2C:39-1 which lists the prohibited rifles. I am not aware of anyone who has been arrested for merely owning a tubular .22 cal rifle with a 15 rd capacity.

CCW is strictly limited. About 3,000 permits have been issued.

State laws supercedes local law when it comes to firearms. Some towns have tried to impose their own gun laws but they have been overturned in court by the NRA.

There is no requirement to "register" guns when moving into New Jersey.

As an aside there are large Orthodox communities in Teaneck, Fairlawn, and Freehold.

A good source of NJ firearms information is the New Jersey State Police at

www.njsp.org

 

[geekWithA.45]

WT is right re: NJ.

Postban AR's are OK, as is the mini-14, WITHOUT the folding stock. Mag limit is indeed 15, although you may posess hicaps IF they have been blocked to 15 or less. I _think_ the bennelli's OK, but you have to check the "banned by name" list to be certain.

NJ has 2 classes of carry permits, and WT's numbers are too high, according to my data. The discretionary issue normal carry permit is pretty rare, only about 650 were issued in 2002, the last year for which I could obtain data. Most of them are restricted "work only" permits for armed guards. The other class of carry permit is "shall issue" for retired LEO's, about 1500 of those exist. Bottom line: you won't be getting one, without bribes and political connections.

The claims that people have been arrested for 17 round tubular magazine marlins is TRUE. Search http://publicola.mu.nu for details, and also http://www.sussescountyjustice.com for commentary.

The premier gun lawyer in the state is Evan Nappen, esqu. http://www.evannappen.com. He wrote the layman's book on NJ gunlaw, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...002-4011462-7562461?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 , which is MUST HAVE if you enjoy your freedom in NJ.

Bottom line: NJ has institutionalized hostility to gunowners, and the structure of the laws are such that they have plenty of "handles" with which to grasp a gunny who stumbles into their wrath.

Note that the "smart guns" law is active, and on the books. At some point in the future, handgun transfers will be restricted to smartguns, although the 2 year countdown has not yet started.

In general, the structure of NJ law is such that all firearms are summarilly banned unless you can show an affirmative defense that an exemption to such ban exists in your specific case. The FID is key to establishing the exemption.

In general, you may only have a firearm in your dwelling, your (own) business at a fixed location, hunting with all your paperwork in order, at the range, or gunsmith shop. Your firearm must be unloaded, cased, and trunked at all other times, ONLY when going DIRECTLY to or from an approved locale.


With respect to handguns, it's easier to move into NJ with a handgun than NY state.

Feel free to email me if you've got any other questions. (geekwitha45-at-nospamdamnit-dot-yahoo-dot-com)

 

[Jim March]

On California:

Are all the laws state, or do localities have the ability to ban gun ownership?

Ownership, no, because we DO have a preemption law. San Francisco has attempted both local rifle and handgun bans and been beaten back each time. But it's been stretched in the area of sales, so you've got some places where sales of certain gun types are restricted. It isn't common and you can always go anywhere else in the state to buy. (Oakland for example did a "pocket rocket" ban - all guns sold must be of a certain minimum size. Snubbies, small 380s and the like are excluded.)

What am I looking at in the LA area? Are there any areas in the LA area where CCW is possible (yeah, a pipe dream, I know...but I had to ask)?

Orange County next door to LA is somewhat sane. Not perfect, they still ask about "good cause" and there's a "crapshoot element" (depends somewhat on which lower-level flunky looks at it initially). But by urban California standards this is an improvement and if you make a creatively solid claim without lying you really can score.

Oh, the other thing you're looking at in LA: it's HOT down there! I couldn't take it, but then again I'm a cold-weather type hooman bean .

My understanding is I'd be looking at much the same thing as NJ- no over 10 round mags, no AR (out of what I own). I keep hearing about a list for handguns- is that just for sales or if I bought a gun legally here in MD that isn't on the list would I have to sell it before bringing it into CA? Could I own it but just not sell it or would I have to get rid of it?

The AR and high-caps can't come into the state.

The "list" is for sales only - you can bring in off-list guns. You do need to register them within 60 days of moving in but it's not a discretionary process and costs almost nothing. And there's no renewal. It's about as "light" a registration process as they come.

You go to the California AG's office website and download a voluntary registration form. I personally would have it notarized. Make a copy, send one in to Cal-DOJ, keep the other. If you're paranoid, make three copies, give the third to the local cop HQ, make sure they in the database.

Another thing: if you're caught illegally CCWing with a gun that's registered to you via this process, and you have no priors, it's a misdemeanor. If the gun isn't registered to you, misdemeanor/felony wobbler. OK?

 

[gunsmith]

No premise permit in CA

Following what Jim just mentioned,you do not need a permit to have a legal gun in your house. Which is slightly better then both NY/NJ.
To buy a handgun you need a safety certificate,Rifles and pistols both have a ten day waiting period that can stretch to 12 or 13 also you need a lock to transport your new gun home.
I'd say CA is better then NJ/NY

 

[Gunsnrovers]

try here as well

Chaim,

Jim March had good information. You can also bounce over to http://www.calguns.net/

There is good info there as well as links to our situation here in the PRK.

Choosing LA can be very problematic. What is "LA" to most folks is acutally a large area of many smaller cities. Some incorporated, some not. Due to a complete lack of viable mass transit, where you work and where you live within "LA" can be critical. A 40 mile commute can easily be 3 hours. My poor boss who lives East of the city leaves his house at 6AM to meet me between 8:30 and 9AM here in West LA.

That being said, for all the laws, the PRK has HUGE gun sales on a yearly basis which is why companies are willing to pay the big $ needed to get on the "approved" list. Too bad we can't get all those gun owners to vote for gun issues.

Jeff

 

[Gunsnrovers]

no lock needed

If you have a DOJ approved safe, you don't need a lock to bring your gun home. Simply sign the waiver when you buy the gun showing the safe you own (no receipt needed).

You DO need a lock if you have ammo & the gun in the vehicle at the same time.

Jeff

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

The commute is only around an hour and a half to NYC from eastern Pennsylvania.

Just something to think about

 

[Carnitas]

Another think Jim also failed to mention WRT Ca. is that aside from L.A. and the Bay Area Counties the CCW permitting situation gets even better. If you can arrange your work to allow you to pick a county or if you can afford a second home a permit can almost be considered a given.

Once you have a permit you'll find that there are very few restrictions on where you can carry. Courts, Airport Secure Areas, and Capitol Grounds are about it. There's no provision in the law for a person or business to post a sign that can legally shut you down like they have in Texas.

 

[The_Antibubba]

Chaim

There's nothing "straight" about California gun laws. Half the reason I'm going to law school is just to understand what I'm allowed to own!

The others are right-every county and municipality has it's own restrictions.

Couple of questions:

What is your "industry"? And when you say your girl friend is an entertainment "type", what do you mean? I'm not asking out of mere curiosity; it's that your options may be wider than you realize. PM me if you don't want to post.

 

[artherd]

One more thing to add.

MACHINE GUNS are legal (with a state permit, and federal registration of course) in CA.

So, conciveably, if you converted your AR with a registered DIAS, then applied for the state permit, and were granted it, you could bring it in.

The MG permits are supposed to be very difficult to get however. (Moreso than CCW even.)

I hear that comment about law school. I've read each and every CA law, and my head exploded. Even our own DOJ dosen't know the laws (whitness the recent M96 confiscation/return fiasco.)

 

[Highland Ranger]

The commute is only around an hour and a half to NYC from eastern Pennsylvania.

Ha . . . .that's funny.

Maybe on a day when the rest of the world is off and there's a tailwind out of the west.

North Eastern PA, although beautiful and very gun friendly, is NOT within reasonable commuting distance to NYC.

I live in Sussex county (top left corner of the state) and 7 years ago, before 9/11 and before they started dropping houses on every single damn inch of free space, my commute to midtown driving was 1.5 hours at 5am in the morning and on the way home it was more like 2 1/2 hours.

Now, I'd have to leave earlier and add at least a half hour each way to those times.

And the Poconos is about 40 miles west of me . . . . .

Bus and train were both worse.

There was talk at one time of a commuter train from the Poconos but to my knowledge it was just talk.

(So much for all the NY Post "Why Rent when you can buy in the Poconos" ads . . . . )

 

[artherd]

One more thing to add.

MACHINE GUNS are legal (with a state permit, and federal registration of course) in CA.

So, conciveably, if you converted your AR with a registered DIAS, then applied for the state permit, and were granted it, you could bring it in.

The MG permits are supposed to be very difficult to get however. (Moreso than CCW even.)

I hear that comment about law school. I've read each and every CA law, and my head exploded. Even our own DOJ dosen't know the laws (whitness the recent M96 confiscation/return fiasco.)

 

[DTLoken]

What about Chicago, it's the third largest city in the US and has a pretty large job market.

It's about an hour commute from Wisconsin (Which has excellent firearms laws aside from having no CCW, but that'll likely change within a year or two I guess). A bit less of a commute to Indiana (45 minutes?) which is even better than WI law wise.

Also Illinois isn't THAT horrible aside from lack of CCW and FOID cards so long as you don't actually live in Chicago or some of it's suburbs (No NFA stuff statewide, lots of various gunbans in/around Chicago).

 

[chaim]

NY:

Premise licenses are considered for the most part "shall-issue", even in NYC.

Premise license? A license that only allows you to keep a gun in your home? Wow. If I end up in NY and I was only allowed one of those but not a "target" license, would I be able to transport my guns at all? Would I legally be able to get around the no target shooting part of the license by going to NJ, PA or home to MD and bringing my guns with me and shooting while I was there? Or, would even having the guns in the car with only a permise license be a crime?


NJ:

It is highly recommended that one get a firearms ID card ASAP.

If I end up in NJ can I apply for one while still living in MD but knew where I was going to live or would I have to wait until I officially moved into the state? If I'd have to wait, would there be a grace period, or if I wanted to stay legal would I have to leave my firearms in MD until the ID card came? How long do they usually take?

Some AR type rifles are permissible.

Mine is a Bushmaster HBAR. In MD HBAR ARs aren't "controlled" firearms- ie. no registration and no waiting period. Would an HBAR AR be ok, or only the DCM?

One can own magazines not exceeding 15 rounds capacity

15 is a pleasant surprise. So I'd be able to keep my 15 round CZ 75B mags. Very cool. (So the only thing that would really be worse than now, living in MD, is the AR. And that is tempered quite a bit by being able to buy most handguns again.)

Note that the "smart guns" law is active, and on the books. At some point in the future, handgun transfers will be restricted to smartguns, although the 2 year countdown has not yet started.

Yeah, MD has that too (though I'm not sure if we have a grace period, or if ours is immediate once there is availability). So really, in most ways (other than the AR) NJ would, for me anyway, be like being in MD before the built-in lock law. Bad, but I guess I could live with it.


CA:

Orange County next door to LA is somewhat sane. Not perfect, they still ask about "good cause" and there's a "crapshoot element" ...But by urban California standards this is an improvement

Good to know. OC is pretty expensive from what I understand, but it may be worth it, and there is a small Orthodox community there. I wonder if showing that antisemetic violence is on the rise and being an Orthodox Jew might be enough (if worded convincingly). Isn't skunk from Orange County and didn't he get a CCW, I wonder how he got his?

What is your "industry"?

I wanted to get out of it since despite the (false) stereotype it is a very antisemetic industry (I have had "situations"), but since my experience is there I may not have a choice. I worked for 5 1/2 years in branch level banking.

And when you say your girl friend is an entertainment "type", what do you mean?

The young lady with whom things are looking up with actually isn't very active anymore (and what she does can be done anywhere) so I shouldn't really have mentioned that. She used to be a stand-up comedian and I think she did some theater, but what is really going to keep here there is: 1) all her family is there, 2) she is a self-employed therapist who already has a small clientele built-up and she'd rather not start over. Still, she may be willing to go to NY due to the theater options there (attending, not acting anymore) and the strong Orthodox community. As for what entertainment she does now- she is getting into voiceovers (commercials and radio).


Other:

What about Chicago, it's the third largest city in the US and has a pretty large job market.

Well, I'm really only adding NY due to its size (it is so close to me I'd be stupid not to try there since I'm still looking for work). LA is really more due to the way things are looking with this woman (I hope I'm not jinxing things by saying this so much on a public forum ). Anyway, the only place in WI I'd be willing to live is Milwaulkee, I have no idea if that is a reasonable commute to Chicago (I guess I could break out the atlas, but I'm in a lazy mood at the moment). I've considered IN as a temporary stay when I was looking at grad school, but the parts of IN near Chicago have pretty much no Jewish community and being Orthodox I need a strong Orthodox Jewish community.



All:

Anyway, thanks everyone for all the great information so far. I do greatly appreciate it. I look forward to the answers to my follow up questions. Thanks again.

 

[WT]

Chaim

NJ

I am not all that familiar with the Bushmaster HBAR. For it to be legal in NJ it cannot have a flash suppressor and a bayonet lug.

NJSP will issue you a card to your Maryland address. When you move, you will then have to reapply with your local PD. Estimate 6 months to obtain the card. Then again, it could take 3 weeks. I would just wait until you've moved into your new home.

You can bring your firearms into NJ and store them in your home until you obtain the firearms ID card.

 

[DTLoken]

It's probably an hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes from Chicago from Milwaukee by my guess.

I'm just about an hour from Chicago (To downtown I guess) and i'm just a bit past the WI border.

I'm about half an hour from Milwaukee.

 

[ctdonath]

NY:

Really isn't that bad. Only handguns need licensing. Go to the county clerk's office, do the paperwork (varies by county), pay a fee (totals around $100), done. Some counties (decreasing number) do put "restrictions" like hunting only, target only, etc. but those are administrative, not legal limitations (can get license pulled for violating, but nothing criminal). Once an "unlimited" license is obtained (pick your county carefully), it's valid everywhere but NY City.

AW ban roughly mirrors the federal ban. Haven't heard of it being enforced.

NY City is, for most practical purposes, another nation. Stay out of NYC and CCW laws are not bad.

NY is very nearly "shall issue". If the county you're moving to has CCW restrictions, move to an adjacent county long enough to get an unrestricted permit, then move where you want and leave the CCW officially registered where you got it.

BTW: No MGs, SBRs, SBSs, suppressors. Non-disguised AOWs can be on CCW permit.

 

[jnojr]

One more thing to add.

MACHINE GUNS are legal (with a state permit, and federal registration of course) in CA.

So, conceivably, if you converted your AR with a registered DIAS, then applied for the state permit, and were granted it, you could bring it in.

I doubt that. The AR would already have to have been in the state before the ban. Plus, even if you could retroactively bring it in, how much fun would a full-auto with ten-round magazines be?

 

[Librarian]

I doubt that. The AR would already have to have been in the state before the ban.

Actually, getting a machine gun permit is one of the listed options in
PC 12285(b) : (2) A person moving into this state, otherwise in lawful
possession of an assault weapon, shall do one of the following:
(A) Prior to bringing the assault weapon into this state, that
person shall first obtain a permit from the Department of Justice in
the same manner as specified in Article 3 (commencing with Section
12230) of Chapter 2. -- which refers to
12230. The Department of Justice may issue permits for the
possession, manufacture, and transportation or possession,
manufacture, or transportation of machineguns, upon a satisfactory
showing that good cause exists for the issuance thereof to the
applicant for the permit, but no permit shall be issued to a person
who is under 18 years of age.

Don't hold your breath....

 

[rayra]

Btw, it isn't illegal to have two residences in CA and to use a less commonly used residence for your CCW application.

Hallelujah. 5-6 days a mo at a mountain home in Kern county, the rest of the month in Los Angeles. Grinning like a fool. Have to get to work on this.