Can I load these n 7.62x25 for a CZ 52?

[Matt Dillon]

Folks I was digging around under my reloading bench today, and I found a bag of what appear to be Berry's or Ranier plated projectiles, tat I had forgotten about. They weigh~113 grains, ad merasure ~.308 or .309 inches n diameter. I have been wanting to come up with a load for 7.62x25, to shoot in my CZ 52. I have ~150empty cases,and was wondering if any of you load for 7.62x25 and might comment on whether projectiles like these might work? Thanks so much in advance!

 

[kyhunter]

I think the original bullet diameter was supposed to be .310-311 for 7.62 x 25. The other problem is that bullet sounds a bit heavy to me for a 7.62 x 25 load. but im no expert on this cartridge ill leave it to those more experienced.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Bullet weight for 7.62x25 is usually 85 to 90gr. ,308-.309" is about the diameter of bullet I have found in commercial 7.62x25mm although officially the 7.62x25mm is supposed to run .310" (the military 7.62x25mm bullets I have pulled do seem to vary a lot in diameter, country to country, year to year also).

I don't reload for my CZ52 but use reloadable empty 7.62x25 to reload for my Mauser C96. In the C96, I am cautious and load the minimum that will reliably function the action without battering. I have used bullet weights from 72gr to 100gr but mild loads intended to perform on cardboard targets.

In a 7.62x25mm CZ52 heavier bullets like 113gr may result in more recoil than 85gr-90gr bullets and I would not want to stress or batter my CZ52. To get same overall length for function, the heavier therefore longer bullet would need to be seated deeper leaving less space for the powder charge. That may raise pressure.

So until someone who has reloaded 7.63x25 for performance in the CZ52 shows up, that's all I can offer you.

 

[armarsh]

I have shot about two thousand 110 grain 308 Berry's in 30 Tok. They work excellent. They are actually meant for the 30 carbine, so they have a thicker plating.

Most cz52's are 308.

 

[thagunman]

i load for the tok using 110gr fmj for 30 carbine and lead 115gr. i use titegroup powder. i load a little hot because the cz52 was built to handle hotter loads but i also shoot them in my yugo tok. about 4.7 gr with the 115 and 5.1gr with the 110. i recently started casting some 100gr projectiles and will work up my loads with those as well.

 

[Clark]

kyhunter
I think the original bullet diameter was supposed to be .310-311 for 7.62 x 25. The other problem is that bullet sounds a bit heavy to me for a 7.62 x 25 load. but im no expert on this cartridge ill leave it to those more experienced.

"Cartridges of the World 9th edition" 2000 lists the 7.62x25mm Tokarev cartridge as having a .307" bullet.
"Lyman Pistol and Revolver handloading handbook second edition" 1994 lists the 7.62x25mm Tokarev/ 30 Mauser cartridge as having a .309" bullet.
"Accurate Arms Smokeless Powders load book number two" 2000 [the one with the loads that can blow up a CZ52] shows the 7.62x25mm Tokarev cartridges as having a .309" bullet.
I just pulled a bullet from a 1953 Czech Tokarev round, I measure .3080".
I just pulled a bullet from a 1950's Polish Tokarev round, I measure .3070".
I just pulled a bullet from a modern S&B Tokarev round, I measure .3075".

See if i can talk like my wife:
As a primary standard, I use an SPI .3080-" pin gauge.
As a check standard, I use Mitutoyo 6" dial calipers

 

[returningfire]

Sierra makes an 85gr .308 that is perfect for the Tok 7.62X25. I load it with Power Pistol for propellent and shoot it in my CZ, TT and psh43. Slick as a whistle and pretty darn tight groupings in all three.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Thanks so very much for all your help! Does anyone have any suggested rrcipes using the 113 grain projectiles, using bullseye, unique, promo, or universal clays powders?

 

[NCsmitty]

I have reloaded Unique under the 100gr Speer Plinker bullets in my CZ-52 with good results. The heavier bullet that you have, would be better served by a slower powder, and armarsh posted his load of 9.0gr of Accurate #9 under a 110gr Berry's, and it would seem to be a good starting load for your needs. CZ-52's are decent pistols but do have the barrel flat weakness. It doesn't gain anything to push their envelope.

Here's a link to the Gunboards dot com site and some info on the 7.62x25.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?248418-7-62x25-reloading-data-with-Lee-dies


NCsmitty

 

[Clark]

NCsmitty,
The link you posted to a 2011 thread at Gunboards show the AA 2000 data for the CZ52.

Those loads came from a 2000 AA letter sent to me and others loads for the CZ52 only.
Ted Curtis, the ballistician wrote that all Eastern block Tokarev ammo was 42kcup except Russian, which tested at 31 kcup.

Then the load book "Accurate Smokeless Powder Loading Guide" 2000 came out with the same data.

Those loads were later recanted by AA.

Johan Loubser Ballistic Lab manager at Accurate Arms wrote some weasel words and revised their loads for the CZ52 only. This example is for 110 gr SPR RN 1.3":
a) The hot load from 2000: 11.7 gr AA#9 41,800 c.u.p 1688 fps
b) The wimpy load from 2005 8.5 gr AA#9, 34,270 psi, 1248 fps


But when I run the changes through Quickload, what I get is
I pointed out that Quickload sees the revision differently as AA#9 is also sold as Enforcer:
a) Quickload 11.7 gr, 4.72" barrel, 110 gr Speer Round nose .308 bullet, 1.3" OAL gives 1622 fps 63,866 psi
b) Quickload 08.5 gr, 4.72" barrel, 110 gr Speer Round nose .308 bullet, 1.3" OAL gives 1114 fps 22,953 psi

Notice the discrepancy between AA pressure measurement and Quickload calculations.

AA later pulled all CZ52 loads.

AA was later sold.

What does it all mean?
The link leads to the old bad data.

 

[NCsmitty]

What does it all mean?
The link leads to the old bad data.

I certainly do not want to disseminate bad data, but I'm wondering why the data was not purged from the site to begin with, if it was incorrect, and/or dangerous. I guess it's because it's the same old internet.


NCsmitty

 

[Matt Dillon]

Folks, does anyone have any recipes they might suggest, using the powders and projectile in the original post? I don't have any f th Accurate powders available to me. Thanks!

 

[Reloadron]

Folks I was digging around under my reloading bench today, and I found a bag of what appear to be Berry's or Ranier plated projectiles, tat I had forgotten about. They weigh~113 grains, ad merasure ~.308 or .309 inches n diameter. I have been wanting to come up with a load for 7.62x25, to shoot in my CZ 52. I have ~150empty cases,and was wondering if any of you load for 7.62x25 and might comment on whether projectiles like these might work? Thanks so much in advance!

Folks, does anyone have any recipes they might suggest, using the powders and projectile in the original post? I don't have any f th Accurate powders available to me. Thanks!

What powder(s) do you have available?

Ron

 

[Matt Dillon]

Universal Clays, Unique, Bullseye, Promo, H110. I would like to use a 113 grain .308 plated Berry's bullet. I can't find load data for these powders with that heavy a bullet.

 

[armarsh]

Universal Clays, Unique, Bullseye, Promo, H110. I would like to use a 113 grain .308 plated Berry's bullet. I can't find load data for these powders with that heavy a bullet.

All those are too fast, except for H110 which is too slow. Unique is prob the best of what you have.

CAUTION: The following post includes untested loading data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Using Quickload software - I would start at 4.0 grains (25k psi) of Unique and plan to work up to 4.4 grains (30K psi).

 

[Twmaster]

If you look at the Lee book or the load data that comes with Lee's 7.62x25 dies they show loads for the 110 grain M1-Carbine pills. I don't have that info in front of me.

I've reloaded those Sierra pills and Hornady XTP pills for my old CZ. (Which had a bore of .310")

Sierra makes an 85gr .308 that is perfect for the Tok 7.62X25. I load it with Power Pistol for propellent and shoot it in my CZ, TT and psh43. Slick as a whistle and pretty darn tight groupings in all three.

Curious what your powder weight is for Power Pistol. I've got a 4 pound jug of PP sitting under the bench.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Thanks so much, especially to at marsh for help with a starting load. I plan on lading up a few, starting at 4 grains, and will let yo know how they shoot. I would have thought that something in t 5 grain range might work better, but I will play it safe and start with 4 and see what happens when I get to 4.4

 

[Matt Dillon]

Well guys, I did shoot so,e at 4, 4.2 and 4.4 grains of unique. They all shot fine, but did not cycle the slide. I am willing t o try and find some Accurate #9 and try it. Do you think that the published load data for the 110 grain bullet is correct?

 

[Clark]

Use the 2005 revised data.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Clark, from where can I obtain the 2005 data? I could see no reference to the 7"63x25 cartridge on their current web site. Thanks!

 

[Twmaster]

Here is a link from the Wayback Machine. Feb 2005, 7.62 Tokarev

http://web.archive.org/web/20081120...ta/30Cal(7.62mm)/7.62x25 Tokarev HG FINAL.pdf

 

[Matt Dillon]

Thanks so much!