Can ruger 45LC be loaded to .44M +p+ levels?

[mikechandler]

Seems like a simple enough question, but I can't seem to get the definitive answer. I've seen a lot of threads about hot loading 45 colt exceeding 44 magnum. But that's always comparing to normal 44 magnum loads. There are also .44 mag +p loads, and +p+ (Ruger SBH and TC Encore only loads).

I thought the answer is no, but the advocates of the 45LC state that, "The 45LC can do anything and more that a .44 magnum can do."

So, are they saying that the Ruger 45 colt handguns can be loaded up to any levels the Ruger SBH .44 magnums can be loaded to, including their +p and +p+ loads? And, on a more specific note (as I might be acquiring one) can the Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter in 45 Colt be loaded to .44 magnum +p+ levels?

I'm trying to find a non-Ruger biased crowd to field this. Thanks a bunch!

 

[mikechandler]

Here's the +p+ ammo referred to above...

Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo - 340 gr. L.F.N. - G.C. (1,478 fps/M.E. 1,649 ft. lbs.)

 

[rcmodel]

First, there are no SAAMI standard for +P or +P+ .44 Magnum loads.
It is already loaded to 35,000 PSI by the factorys and most all reputable reloading data.

The .44 frame Blackhawk in .45 Colt can be loaded to at least 25,000.

But since the base of the .452" bullet is bigger then the .427" bullet, you have more surface area for the pressure to push on. Or a bigger piston in engine terms.

Hence, either caliber will drive equal weight bullets to about identical velocity, but the .45 Colt can do it with less pressure.

.45 Colt - 300 gr JSP W296 23.0 - 1,193 FPS - 25,000 CUP
.44 Mag - 300 gr JSP - W296 - 22.5 - 1,187 FPS - 40,000 CUP.

rc

 

[mikechandler]

First, there are no +P or +P+ .44 Magnum loads.
It is already loaded to 35,000 PSI by the factorys and most all reputable reloading data.

But manufacturer's sell such ammo. See the link above. What's the deal there?

The .44 frame Blackhawk in .45 Colt can be loaded to at least 25,000.

But since the base of the .452" bullet is bigger then the .427" bullet, you have more surface area for the pressure to push on. Or a bigger piston in engine terms.

Hence, either caliber will drive equal weight bullets to about identical velocity, but the .45 Colt can do it with less pressure.

.45 Colt - 300 gr JSP W296 23.0 - 1,193 FPS - 25,000 CUP
.44 Mag - 300 gr JSP - W296 - 22.5 - 1,187 FPS - 40,000 CUP.

rc

So, if that's all true... then the 45 colt is superior in the right gun, to any 44 magnum, as lower pressure would mean less recoil? Energy delivered is all about bullet weight and FPS, and added to that the 45 colt would also create a bigger hole too, right?

So for example (the reason this is being asked), the Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley Hunter 45 colt is a better hunting handgun than the Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter 44 magnum? I am selling a freedom arms 454 casull, and considering a trade + cash of the 45 colt Bisley hunter. However, I already own a 44 mag bisley hunter.

 

[rcmodel]

Bigger hole, Yes.
Less recoil, No.

Most likely, the .45 Colt would kick harder, as recoil energy as you surmised, is a function of bullet weight & velocity, coupled with gun weight.

And there is less steel left in a gun when you drill .45 cal holes in it, so it weighs a little less then the same gun in .44.

Buffalo Bore can call it what they like, +P, +P+, whatever.
The fact remains that there is no industry standard for it, so they can call it whatever they want to call it I guess.

The other thing is, what do you need that much power for anyway?
It certainly won't be fun to shoot.
It will have you flinching, jerking, and missing in short order.
And it costs $2.00 bucks a shot!

Besides that, a .45 Colt 250 grain SWC at 1,000 FPS will kill anything that walks and poops in the woods already.
And dead is dead.

rc

 

[firesky101]

I know rugers are tough, the only difference I would see is if the cylinder is the same diameter the .45 colt will have slightly thinner chamber walls. As RC pointed out though the lower pressure levels should offset that.

 

[rcmodel]

I am selling a freedom arms 454 casull, and considering a trade + cash of the 45 colt Bisley hunter.

I just noticed you said that.

Trading a Freedon Arms .454 for a Ruger anything would be a big step in the wrong direction IMO.

rc

 

[MCgunner]

as recoil energy as you surmised, is a function of bullet weight & velocity, coupled with gun weight.

The calculations I've seen take only bullet weight and charge weight (of the powder) as variables. Gun weight would affect FELT recoil, but not recoil force. Velocity has no affect on recoil, just powder charge and bullet weight. Even working pressure doesn't matter.

 

[mavracer]

can the Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter in 45 Colt be loaded to .44 magnum +p+ levels?

Not with the wall thickness of a std 6 shot blackhawk cylinder. But you put a oversized 5 shot cylinder and you can push it right past that 44mag load and right into the 454 Casull terratory.
here's a good read on the real 45 Colt potential
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

 

[rcmodel]

The point I was trying to make is, a lighter gun kicks harder then a heavier gun with the same load.
And a .45 Colt weighs a little less then a .44 Mag when built on the same frame.
I'm not a mathematician though.

I use an on-line calculator, and they want to know what the gun and powder charge weigh too.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

rc

 

[MCgunner]

The gun's weight matters as to felt recoil, of course. Also, the grip shape of a single action helps ME with recoil over that of a DA. I like single actions in heavy recoiling guns.

If I didn't handload, I'd have a .44 mag instead of a .45 Colt, but I do handload. I don't push my loads anywhere near Buffalo Bore's .45 Colt heavy loads let alone those .44 mags listed. There ain't a deer or hog in Texas that takes that much killin'. My loads shoot a 300 grain XTP out of a 4 5/8" Blackhawk at 1120 fps, get 1200 fps from a 7" Contender barrel which would probably be pretty close out of a 6.5" Blackhawk since that contender is a .45 colt/.410 barrel with a LOT of freebore before it hits rifling.

I don't own a .44 mag, just don't feel like I need one. One of these days I might get a 29 Smith since I still love the original "Dirty Harry". I like westerns, though, watching "Lonesome Dove" all day today.

 

[Water-Man]

I haven't checked recently, but the OP should look at Garrett Cartridges.

 

[eldon519]

Velocity absolutely affects recoil. No velocity, no recoil. It's just conservation of momentum. The velocity times the sum of the charge and bullet mass equals the recoil impulse of the handgun. Gun weight does not effect the momentum/impulse of the gun but it does affect the recoil energy. Pressure doesn't directly figure into anything other than that less pressure would usually require a greater charge weight to produce the same velocity which would in fact increase recoil. For example ballistically equivalent .44 magnum and .45LC H-110 loads burn about 10 percent more powder with the .45, thus more recoil.

 

[MCgunner]

I stand corrected on velocity, went and looked it up again. I have the stuff stuck away in a notebook, haven't looked at it in a while.

 

[Slamfire]

You can load these things till the top straps come off, like these:






Top one is a 45 LC, the lower picture is of a 44 Mag

There are a lot of people experimenting, attempting to determine the exact pressure level it takes to blow the top straps off a Ruger revolver.

I consider these people too dangerous to be around.

As a general rule, I would follow loading manuals and factory recommendations.

 

[mikechandler]

You can load these things till the top straps come off, like these:






Top one is a 45 LC, the lower picture is of a 44 Mag

And the 45 LC is less damaged, so it must be better right?



Okay, point taken. There is no free lunch, damnit all.

 

[mikechandler]

It was a gun + a boodle of cash.

My model 83 is a 4.75" 454 with fixed sights. It's use is rather limited... certainly more of a predator gun than a hunting gun, and the gun offered is a very rare model ruger - a Bisley hunter in 45 colt - so it's not actually a big step in the wrong direction.

 

[CSA 357]

if you want a 44mag get a 44 mag, dont try to make a 45 colt into one

 

[CraigC]

"The 45LC can do anything and more that a .44 magnum can do."

The reverse is also true. Based on factory six shot Ruger single actions built on the large frame, where the broadly accepted practice is that the .45Colt can be run up to 32,000psi, the difference is pretty much a wash. The .44Mag enjoys at least a 100fps advantage across the board. At the top end (355gr .44/360gr .45), the .44Mag pushes a bullet of higher sectional density faster. To equal the SD of the 355gr .44, you need a 395gr .45 and the .44 pushes its bullet 200fps faster. The advantage of the .45 is that it is .022" larger in diameter.

The .45 only begins to gain a slight velocity advantage in custom five-shot guns and Redhawks. Where its cavernous capacity really begins to shine. Where pressures run to 50-55,000psi.

Pictures of blown up guns and statements like "if you want a 44mag get a 44 mag, don't try to make a 45 colt into one" are irrelevant. We KNOW for absolute proven fact what guns are capable of what loads. Loading a large frame Ruger .45 to 32,000psi is no more or less dangerous than handloading for any other firearm in any other chambering.

 

[CSA 357]

i think we have the answer right here! look at those rugers above!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But manufacturer's sell such ammo. See the link above. What's the deal there?

There is no law against labeling ammo +P or +P+. And there is also no definition for those labels for .44 Mag and .45 Colt. So they can call it what they like, and leave the consumer guessing about what he has bought.

 

[smkummer]

30 plus years ago watching all the Dirty Harry series told me I needed a 44 magnum. The Ruger SBH mainly sat in the safe as other 38 special, 44 special and 45 Colt guns made it out to get shot. Recoil gets old fast when its not needed. I have just started taking the SBH out and enjoying it with 900 FPS loads with the 245 Kieth bullet. When this subject comes up, like others have said, what do you need the power for? While I have killed deer with the SBH, the 45 Colt SAA pushing a 255 grain bullet at 900 actual FPS with reloads really knocks down the metal plates at 100 yards and I have no doubt it would cleanly drop deer as others have said. A Ruger 45 Colt will do anything you need on this continent safely with published load data. I have been shooting besides a fellow who blew his Dan Wesson .357 up with most likely a double charge and still have the bruise on my thigh from the cylinder piece that hit me. It could have been worse. Enjoy and be safe.

 

[Greg528iT]

I am selling a freedom arms 454 casull

I'm with RC on this.....

Trading a Freedon Arms .454 for a Ruger anything would be a big step in the wrong direction IMO.

You already have a gun you can load real heavy, OR shoot lighter loads.

 

[kludge]

I just noticed you said that.

Trading a Freedon Arms .454 for a Ruger anything would be a big step in the wrong direction IMO.

rc

+1, and I'm a Ruger nut. You could always have them put a longer barrel on it.

Get a .45 Colt cylinder for your FA and unleash the beast.

 

[Prosser]

Kind of been there done that.

Ruger .45's specs are known for having quality control that requires a check and usually opening up of the cylinder throats, IIRC.

Check Linebaugh for what he feels is safe in a 5 shot vs. a 6 shot revolver.
He kind of started this whole thing.

Hamilton Bowen once put it something like this about your situation:

"No matter what I do to the Ruger, at the end of the day, it's still a Ruger."

Nothing that you can do to a Ruger is going to make it into a Freedom Arms,
short of buying a BFR and then you get close.

I don't have much interest in such loads for a .44 Magnum or a .45 Colt.

The increase in pressure does create sharp, hard recoil, requiring custom grips to really be shootable. If you can't get it done with a 260-325
grain bullet at 1200 fps, you really need to move up in caliber. Please tell me the animal that a 325 at 1200 fps won't take. Is it wearing kevlar?

For around 600 dollars that .454 can be turned into a .475 Linebaugh
by Jack Huntington Advanced Gunsmithing. Light for caliber .475 bullets are heavy for caliber .44 or .45 bullets, and that big case gives you a LOT of velocity.

If you want to hunt, what in the 48 won't a .454 take? Heck, what won't a .45 Colt take with the right loads? Put a longer barrel and a scope on the .454 if thats what you want to do with it.

Is there really any market for 'rare' Rugers? That seems like an Oxymoron to me.

Your FA is probably MUCH more valuable, and will keep it's value better then most Rugers.

The only Rugers I know of that are truly rare are the .357 Maximums converted to .500 Linebaugh Maximum, or .475 Linebaugh Maximum.

To answer your question:
I had about 12 rounds of 350-360 grain .45 Colt rounds loaded to
1550 fps. These rounds were designed to be shot out of a Seville 6 shot, to take a cape buffalo, before the .475 and .500 Linebaugh existed.

They would knock the cylinder out of time, and you would have to use your finger to index the gun, but the cylinder held, as did the rest of the gun.

However, this was a custom 17-4 cylinder cut by Linebaugh.



Seville is the middle gun. Never did get the cape buffalo, but Ross Seyfried did.

Don't know what the current Ruger cylinders are made of, or what they are proofed to in .45 Colt.