Gray Peterson
Member
I thought it was unconstitutional to overturn an acquittal verdict by a jury?
Can someone please educate me about Waco and Ruby Ridge?
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I thought it was unconstitutional to overturn an acquittal verdict by a jury?
swampsniper
Member
I think it is beyond his understanding that a lot of us are pissed off. Some people think that love of your Nation equals love of the government. They really don't know that these are two separate things. I have been accused of treason several times for questioning government policy and action. In reality, blind support of government is most common treason I see today.:banghead:
Telewinz, I would really like to hear your defense of judges overturning juries. My eyes are old and not that sharp, but I get the impression you have not addressed this. Have I overlooked your view or do you not care to tackle the issue?
Telewinz, I would really like to hear your defense of judges overturning juries. My eyes are old and not that sharp, but I get the impression you have not addressed this. Have I overlooked your view or do you not care to tackle the issue?
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Lonnie, James Pate of Soldier of Fortune magazine covered the trial in San Antonio. If I recall it correctly, the jurors, afterward, claimed some confusion about the instructions. I think that they found a guilty verdict on some--but not all--of the charges, and gave sentences. IIRC, the judge increased the length of incarceration, rather than "overturning" verdicts.
But it's been a few years since I read the article...
Art
But it's been a few years since I read the article...
Art
Gray Peterson
Member
President George Herbert Walker-Bush was president of the US at the time the Ruby Ridge case occured, not Clinton.
Gray Peterson
Member
Were the convictions appealed? I bet if you get it to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals level, you might get different reasoning. See the Miller Mutations.
swampsniper
Member
Although I am a lifelong Republican, George the First never has been on my favorites list. As lesser evil, the only choice we get, he was much less slimy than Slick Willie. Remember who you first heard "NEW WORLD ORDER" from? They dance us to the left, they dance us to the right, and after every dance, we get s______d just the same!!! You only get a kiss before the election. When is the last time you heard ANY leading politican refer to USA as a REPUBLIC? The problem is the sheep want a democracy, they are too stupid to know the difference. If you cloned MONICA and passed out copies they would declare you King for life!!
My conclusion? This happens again and I can get there, I am on the way if I have to crawl. Evil fails in the sight of witnesses with courage.
My conclusion? This happens again and I can get there, I am on the way if I have to crawl. Evil fails in the sight of witnesses with courage.
2nd Amendment
member
Is this country a nation of sheep just because they disagree with you?
No, it is a nation of sheep because so many choose to blindly accept the government spiel on a variety of subjects, no matter how inconsistent or demonstrably untrue. People such as yourself.
Sheep are easily led, why do they choose not to follow you and others that hold your beliefs?
Because it is easier and safer and less labor intensive to believe the goobermint, as you show.
This nation has 2/3 rds of the World's lawyers, if you feel you have been cheated and have a valid argument then the lawyers should be beating a path to your door asking to take the "goobermint" back to court again. I must assume that even with all the best selling books at your disposal, this is not happening for you. I wonder why?
Utterly specious line of reasoning intended to distract from the issue. *I* have no involvement in this case and thus no attorney will beat any path to *my* door about it. They have, however, beat a path to Weaver's door, and the Davidians and the government keeps losing.
That the government "screwed-up" is true,
Well, that is something from you, at least...
that your evidence was "aired out" in our legal/political system (which was fine until you heard the verdict)
It was never truly "aired out" but what was went against the goobermint across the board. Weaver won millions., The Davidians were aquitted. Koresh was never convicted of anything. In other words, I'm not complaining about the verdicts we got, I merely want more of the same.
and underwent close inspection and cross examination by both sides is also true. You won some you lost some, be content with that because thats all you are getting from the "land of the sheep".
No, we'll get much more, eventually, one way or the other...whatever it takes.
Thank you, yet again, for demonstrating exactly what i was speaking of: Repeating the same thing, over and over, in slightly different forms regardless of how often you are shown to be not merely wrong, but utterly resistant to even attempting to educate yourself.
No, it is a nation of sheep because so many choose to blindly accept the government spiel on a variety of subjects, no matter how inconsistent or demonstrably untrue. People such as yourself.
Sheep are easily led, why do they choose not to follow you and others that hold your beliefs?
Because it is easier and safer and less labor intensive to believe the goobermint, as you show.
This nation has 2/3 rds of the World's lawyers, if you feel you have been cheated and have a valid argument then the lawyers should be beating a path to your door asking to take the "goobermint" back to court again. I must assume that even with all the best selling books at your disposal, this is not happening for you. I wonder why?
Utterly specious line of reasoning intended to distract from the issue. *I* have no involvement in this case and thus no attorney will beat any path to *my* door about it. They have, however, beat a path to Weaver's door, and the Davidians and the government keeps losing.
That the government "screwed-up" is true,
Well, that is something from you, at least...
that your evidence was "aired out" in our legal/political system (which was fine until you heard the verdict)
It was never truly "aired out" but what was went against the goobermint across the board. Weaver won millions., The Davidians were aquitted. Koresh was never convicted of anything. In other words, I'm not complaining about the verdicts we got, I merely want more of the same.
and underwent close inspection and cross examination by both sides is also true. You won some you lost some, be content with that because thats all you are getting from the "land of the sheep".
No, we'll get much more, eventually, one way or the other...whatever it takes.
Thank you, yet again, for demonstrating exactly what i was speaking of: Repeating the same thing, over and over, in slightly different forms regardless of how often you are shown to be not merely wrong, but utterly resistant to even attempting to educate yourself.
"No, we'll get much more, eventually, one way or the other...whatever it takes."
Maybe but I don't think so. Membership in the various militias dropped like a rock after the bomb in Oklahoma City went off (and the heat was on). There have always been malcontents and misfits that feel left out of the system because they either cannot cope or compete with main stream America. Relax, its OK to fill in your bomb shelter and lower the hammer on your 45.
Maybe but I don't think so. Membership in the various militias dropped like a rock after the bomb in Oklahoma City went off (and the heat was on). There have always been malcontents and misfits that feel left out of the system because they either cannot cope or compete with main stream America. Relax, its OK to fill in your bomb shelter and lower the hammer on your 45.
Duncan Idaho
member
Well aware of that Lonnie, but you certainly must understand that those that were happiest about the outcome at Ruby Ridge were among those most likely to support Klinton, and among those least likely to support President George H. W. Bush.
You do know that right?
2nd Amendment
member
Maybe but I don't think so.
You've been wrong about pretty much every other claim you have made so forgive me if I don't take you too seriously...
Membership in the various militias dropped like a rock after the bomb in Oklahoma City went off (and the heat was on).
Thank you for another excellent example of your willing ignorance. A) The militias were never as populace as the media and hacks like Morris Dees wished the sheep to think. B) The numbers haven't changed much between before and after OKC, just how they allow themselves to be seen, and when. C) "The heat" was never on, since McVeigh was never a militia member and the Alphabet Agencies never believed there was any connection.
There have always been malcontents and misfits that feel left out of the system because they either cannot cope or compete with main stream America.
Certainly. Don't you wish the militia movement did not, instead, contain US House and Senate members, State House and Senate members, local representatives of government, small business people and professionals including doctors and lawyers? In my group at this moment the lowest income individual is myself and I should, if nothing goes wrong, clear nearly 85k this year. Damnation, we certainly ARE unable to compete, eh...
Relax, its OK to fill in your bomb shelter and lower the hammer on your 45.
Funny how, at the least bit of direct confrontation, The Advocates, such as yourself, fold and stoop to the usual Statist redneck stereotypes and jabs. One would think your handlers would supply you folks with some new material once in a while.
You've been wrong about pretty much every other claim you have made so forgive me if I don't take you too seriously...
Membership in the various militias dropped like a rock after the bomb in Oklahoma City went off (and the heat was on).
Thank you for another excellent example of your willing ignorance. A) The militias were never as populace as the media and hacks like Morris Dees wished the sheep to think. B) The numbers haven't changed much between before and after OKC, just how they allow themselves to be seen, and when. C) "The heat" was never on, since McVeigh was never a militia member and the Alphabet Agencies never believed there was any connection.
There have always been malcontents and misfits that feel left out of the system because they either cannot cope or compete with main stream America.
Certainly. Don't you wish the militia movement did not, instead, contain US House and Senate members, State House and Senate members, local representatives of government, small business people and professionals including doctors and lawyers? In my group at this moment the lowest income individual is myself and I should, if nothing goes wrong, clear nearly 85k this year. Damnation, we certainly ARE unable to compete, eh...
Relax, its OK to fill in your bomb shelter and lower the hammer on your 45.
Funny how, at the least bit of direct confrontation, The Advocates, such as yourself, fold and stoop to the usual Statist redneck stereotypes and jabs. One would think your handlers would supply you folks with some new material once in a while.
Tamara
Senior Member
Duncan Idaho,
Oh, I dunno; the fact that the whole Ruby Ridge fiasco occurred on Bush I's watch while the Keystone Kops Koverup occurred on Clinton's was a stellar example of "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
You do know that, right?
Well aware of that Lonnie, but you certainly must understand that those that were happiest about the outcome at Ruby Ridge were among those most likely to support Klinton, and among those least likely to support President George H. W. Bush.
You do know that right?
Oh, I dunno; the fact that the whole Ruby Ridge fiasco occurred on Bush I's watch while the Keystone Kops Koverup occurred on Clinton's was a stellar example of "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
You do know that, right?
The way was cleared over two years ago for the potential trial of Lon Horiuchi in an Idaho court for the wrongful death of Vicki Weaver. The prosecuting attorney for Boundary Co. in northern Idaho, Brett Benson, choose not to prosecute the case.
It was a gutless decision I believe on his part not to prosecute. It had the potential to bring justice, accountability, and closure to the Ruby Ridge incident. It wouldn't have brought Vicki Weaver back but it could have made someone accountable for her wrongful death. It could have sent a message that those who recklessly endanger and violate a citizen's rights, even under flawed orders such as the "rules of engagement", are not above the law and will be held accountable for their actions.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/elkins/elkins28a.html
Pat S
It was a gutless decision I believe on his part not to prosecute. It had the potential to bring justice, accountability, and closure to the Ruby Ridge incident. It wouldn't have brought Vicki Weaver back but it could have made someone accountable for her wrongful death. It could have sent a message that those who recklessly endanger and violate a citizen's rights, even under flawed orders such as the "rules of engagement", are not above the law and will be held accountable for their actions.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/elkins/elkins28a.html
Pat S
Orthonym...
Sorry Orthonym, I had to work late on the "chain gang" and didn't notice your post last night.
To a large extent you are right! The people in control (for the most part)are responsible and try to operate by a certain set of rules. Privately do they know the government blew-it BIG TIME? Yes, but they can't undo what was done at WACO or Ruby Ridge but they can perform damage control.
Regardless of how I feel about the issue, their have been some pretty lame arguments made based on opinion and emotion (IMHO). But then again, several people calmed-down and used reason and suggestion to swing me over to their side. "Let me send you this book" was very effective, I think it was Art who made the offer. He used reason not threats or insults to try to sway me over to his side. AND HE (and others) DIDN"T TAKE IT AS A PERSONAL INSULT if I disagreed with his conclusions, he just gave me the tools (books) to reach the same conclusions he did. I don't know much about Art, but he must be an older "young" gentleman to have his sense of reason and self-control. I'd want people like Art (and a couple others) defending my 2nd amendment rights.
Do I still feel there is enough guilt to go around? Yes but I (and our watch dog, the legal system) also expect the government (at any level) to show far better judgement and compassion (called a higher standard) than John Q. Public, they didn't! Most of the agents were hoping for a fight so they could play the childhood game of cops and robbers and have a little excitement in their lives. Their leadership is suppose to control them and prevent excess use of force, NOT encourage it. In my mind, this one issue above all others is the shortcoming that needs to be fixed (they are working on it already IMHO). WE are a nation of laws and that isn't going to change and we better hope it never does!
Sorry Orthonym, I had to work late on the "chain gang" and didn't notice your post last night.
To a large extent you are right! The people in control (for the most part)are responsible and try to operate by a certain set of rules. Privately do they know the government blew-it BIG TIME? Yes, but they can't undo what was done at WACO or Ruby Ridge but they can perform damage control.
Regardless of how I feel about the issue, their have been some pretty lame arguments made based on opinion and emotion (IMHO). But then again, several people calmed-down and used reason and suggestion to swing me over to their side. "Let me send you this book" was very effective, I think it was Art who made the offer. He used reason not threats or insults to try to sway me over to his side. AND HE (and others) DIDN"T TAKE IT AS A PERSONAL INSULT if I disagreed with his conclusions, he just gave me the tools (books) to reach the same conclusions he did. I don't know much about Art, but he must be an older "young" gentleman to have his sense of reason and self-control. I'd want people like Art (and a couple others) defending my 2nd amendment rights.
Do I still feel there is enough guilt to go around? Yes but I (and our watch dog, the legal system) also expect the government (at any level) to show far better judgement and compassion (called a higher standard) than John Q. Public, they didn't! Most of the agents were hoping for a fight so they could play the childhood game of cops and robbers and have a little excitement in their lives. Their leadership is suppose to control them and prevent excess use of force, NOT encourage it. In my mind, this one issue above all others is the shortcoming that needs to be fixed (they are working on it already IMHO). WE are a nation of laws and that isn't going to change and we better hope it never does!
seeker_two
Member
!!!By George, I think he's got it!!!
seeker_2
I always did have it, no thanks to some of the posters. With some of the lame emotional arguements used and what seems to be a revulsion for our government, I'd choose the government's side simply because they represent the only SANE group to choose from.
I always did have it, no thanks to some of the posters. With some of the lame emotional arguements used and what seems to be a revulsion for our government, I'd choose the government's side simply because they represent the only SANE group to choose from.
seeker_two
Member
My mistake.
He don't got it....
Continue the discussion...
swampsniper
Member
telewinz, revulsion for government is one of those good old American traditions, in case you do not know. It was the clear intent of the founders to leave us with this concept. Government is supposed to fear us, not the other way around.
Government has already been given too much power. I am sure you will tell me that it is the will of the majority, this may be, but the Constitution protects me from the excesses of the majority as well as those of government.
A democracy will always lead to socialism. Marx said that when the voters in a democracy learn that they can vote themselves benefits, the end is near for democracy. If we have, in spite of being a republic, come to the point of a democracy on the way down into socialism and tyranny, it should not be a suprise that a police state is seen by some as the only way to maintain order,and you should not be amazed that some will resist this trend.
The government is not sorry for these actions, only sorry they got caught. In each of the cases involved in this discussion, the Feds planned to get in, kick ???, and get out. The lesson they learned is not the correct one, they will just try to be more discrete next time, and next time will come, unless they are informed of likely consequences.
As to your reference to sanity, there are times when if you are not paranoid, you are insane. I will plead guilty to paranoia. It seems to be a needed survival trait. Paranoia has an opposite, you know. Perhaps this is the insane position.
Government has already been given too much power. I am sure you will tell me that it is the will of the majority, this may be, but the Constitution protects me from the excesses of the majority as well as those of government.
A democracy will always lead to socialism. Marx said that when the voters in a democracy learn that they can vote themselves benefits, the end is near for democracy. If we have, in spite of being a republic, come to the point of a democracy on the way down into socialism and tyranny, it should not be a suprise that a police state is seen by some as the only way to maintain order,and you should not be amazed that some will resist this trend.
The government is not sorry for these actions, only sorry they got caught. In each of the cases involved in this discussion, the Feds planned to get in, kick ???, and get out. The lesson they learned is not the correct one, they will just try to be more discrete next time, and next time will come, unless they are informed of likely consequences.
As to your reference to sanity, there are times when if you are not paranoid, you are insane. I will plead guilty to paranoia. It seems to be a needed survival trait. Paranoia has an opposite, you know. Perhaps this is the insane position.
swampsniper
Member
What would happen if I wanted to post that Jesus rode into the city riding on an ???? Moderators, we are going too far with censorship. :banghead:
TallPine
Member
How about a revulsion for killing innocent women and children ...?
All in the name of:
1) Failure to pay a $5 tax (but on whose part - seems like that burden should have fallen on the "owner" of the shotgun, not on the mechanic who allegedly modified it)
2) Information that someone "might" have fully automatic rifles (again, a failure to pay a tax)
3) Information that children may be being abused (a state or local issue)
YES, I AM REVOLTED
And, telewinz, it seems to me like most of the opinions and feelings on this thread have come from one particular poster ... guess who ?????
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
"Moderators, we are going too far with censorship." Huh?
swampsniper, given how free-ranging this thread has been, either you need to go to bed earlier, or not get up so early. Moderators have offered some of their thoughts, but certainly haven't "sat down" on anybody.
telewinz, I'd argue the "sanity" bit, for sure. I don't doubt there were and are good, ethical federal folks who were involved in the aftermath investigations. That doesn't mean their efforts were not overshadowed by those with a vested interested in minimizing the bad publicity.
Lemme offer this about "testimony" and "unsworn statements": When one reads newspaper accounts from witnesses and bystanders, there are a few things to look for: One is consistency among various folks over the period of time of the interviews. If the stories vary a good bit, they're unreliable. Another thing is bias; whether or not a person had something to gain, or a preconceived notion about who's right or wrong.
To me, if there is consistency among the stories from disparate people and there is a low likelihood of bias, I'm far more prone to accept that view than I am the court testimony of a biased witness. Maybeso that's just from the experience of my near-70 years on this ol' mudball.
Art
swampsniper, given how free-ranging this thread has been, either you need to go to bed earlier, or not get up so early.
Moderators have offered some of their thoughts, but certainly haven't "sat down" on anybody.telewinz, I'd argue the "sanity" bit, for sure. I don't doubt there were and are good, ethical federal folks who were involved in the aftermath investigations. That doesn't mean their efforts were not overshadowed by those with a vested interested in minimizing the bad publicity.
Lemme offer this about "testimony" and "unsworn statements": When one reads newspaper accounts from witnesses and bystanders, there are a few things to look for: One is consistency among various folks over the period of time of the interviews. If the stories vary a good bit, they're unreliable. Another thing is bias; whether or not a person had something to gain, or a preconceived notion about who's right or wrong.
To me, if there is consistency among the stories from disparate people and there is a low likelihood of bias, I'm far more prone to accept that view than I am the court testimony of a biased witness. Maybeso that's just from the experience of my near-70 years on this ol' mudball.
Art
sabre452
Member
Has anyone viewed the "Waco: Rules of Engagement" piece that has been airing on cable lately? I find the explanation for the video tape of the 2/28 raid that was A) initially denied to exist by the ATF/FBI/Treasury, B) later purported to exist but lost and C) finally produced under order from the congressional committee only to be blank deplorable. I am also stunned by the fact that FLIR footage from 4/19 taken by the FBI is interpreted to not show gun fire from the AFVs, and from perimeter positions towards the compound contrary to what the inventor of the technology and the manufacturer of the equipment stated when they reviewed the same footage. The FBI has testified that it never fired a single round other than gas rounds during the 51 day stand off. It is beyond my comprehension that the front door of the compound could not be produced for examination. The footage of agents hoisting the ATF flag over the center as it smoldered is also appalling to me. I can't reconcile the fact that the people in that center that had granted a cease fire to the ATF after the ATF had expended their ammunition and allowed them to retreat and recover their wounded needed to be assualted with AFVs and CS gas to resolve the standoff. The people that conducted that raid/stand off/assualt represent each of us. I have not read or viewed anything that makes me proud of our representatives in the handling of this matter.
Having seen the FLIR footage as well, I also find it very hard to stomach the 'fact' that the flashes seen on the film are just reflections. Can't remember where I saw it, but somebody investigating the Waco bloodbath did some comparison shots of sunlight reflection off some metal, and gun fire on FLIR footage. Surprise surprise, the comparison gun fire looked just like the 'flashes' on the Waco film. Wish I had an online link to that footage again, so others in this thread could have a look.
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