Can someone please educate me about Waco and Ruby Ridge?
- Thread starter BHPshooter
- Start date
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Al Norris
Member
telewinz, you "reached" your conclusion long before this thread ever started. You said as much by the demeanor of your first few posts.
You can't or won't believe the Fed.gov has done anything wrong. You believe that felonies were committed by people who either had their day in court and were acquited or never had their day at all. Every post you have made reeks of distaste for anyone who holds a differnet opinion in this.
Well, I've concluded that you sir, are a shill. Thanks for your input/help.
You can't or won't believe the Fed.gov has done anything wrong. You believe that felonies were committed by people who either had their day in court and were acquited or never had their day at all. Every post you have made reeks of distaste for anyone who holds a differnet opinion in this.
Well, I've concluded that you sir, are a shill. Thanks for your input/help.
AL....
You are dead wrong (again) about me reaching a conclusion about WACO before this thread started. For the most part I was indifferent to WACO since it has an emotional aspect (like abortion & gun control) to it. It seemed pointless to me to debate the merits of either side due to this highly- charged emotional aspect thats strikes deeply at some peoples core beliefs. I believe it is proper and wise to show respect for a person's religion and any other faith based beliefs as long as it is within the confines of the law.
There (not their) has been no new compelling evidence to impreach Danforth's report, his report remains with me the most reliable (yet imperfect) accounting of WACO. Thanks for the input.
You are dead wrong (again) about me reaching a conclusion about WACO before this thread started. For the most part I was indifferent to WACO since it has an emotional aspect (like abortion & gun control) to it. It seemed pointless to me to debate the merits of either side due to this highly- charged emotional aspect thats strikes deeply at some peoples core beliefs. I believe it is proper and wise to show respect for a person's religion and any other faith based beliefs as long as it is within the confines of the law.
There (not their) has been no new compelling evidence to impreach Danforth's report, his report remains with me the most reliable (yet imperfect) accounting of WACO. Thanks for the input.
griz
Member
Your mind was not made up before this thread? Here is the end of your first post:
I would ask you again to explain which of those killed at Ruby Ridge was guilty, but don't bother. You either don't understand the question or are ignoring it since your allegation is wrong. Either way I'm finished.
I think that you don't even realize the bias in your view. It's not that you're pro-government, it's that you fail to even acknowledge that the government may try to hide it's fatal mistakes.
I would ask you again to explain which of those killed at Ruby Ridge was guilty, but don't bother. You either don't understand the question or are ignoring it since your allegation is wrong. Either way I'm finished.
Al Norris
Member
griz, in fact, it was the 9th post of this long thread. Well before anyone had really begun to post their "opinions."
telewinz, speaking of that first post, this has bothered me. You said:
A few were however. A BBS (you been around long enough to remember them?) up in Spokane was getting the real scoop and letting all their users know. People were getting mad as hell. The Feds had set up their CP at the roads entrance to Weavers property. The locals were being kept back at the bridge. The Sheriff was in charge of crowd control and was kept out of the loop.
No Protests for weeks afterword? Where the hell were you?
The 14th post to this thread was your second post on the subject:
So let me repeat my charge: You sir, are a shill.
telewinz, speaking of that first post, this has bothered me. You said:
Now granted that us folk up here in Idaho are a pretty conservative bunch...but I'd hardly call the 1 million inhabitants "extreme right." Many, many of us began protesting the moment we heard about this. We heard about Degan, and wanted the Feds to tell us what was going on. Nothing was forth coming except the standard, "We have this armed and dangerous white supremicist family up in northen Idaho that killed a Federal Marshal." The US Attorney down in Boise even called the Weavers, "skin heads!" Everything possible was done to demonize them. The people up around there were trying to tell a different story, but hardly anyone was listening.
A few were however. A BBS (you been around long enough to remember them?) up in Spokane was getting the real scoop and letting all their users know. People were getting mad as hell. The Feds had set up their CP at the roads entrance to Weavers property. The locals were being kept back at the bridge. The Sheriff was in charge of crowd control and was kept out of the loop.
No Protests for weeks afterword? Where the hell were you?
The 14th post to this thread was your second post on the subject:
That right there says you not only knew nothing, you had made your mind up before coming into this debate. I can say this with authority simply because if you knew anything, you would have known that Weaver was acquited of all charges but one. Failure to Appear.
So let me repeat my charge: You sir, are a shill.
Danforth Clears Feds Regarding Waco
Associated Press, July 22, 2000
By Connie Farrow
ST. LOUIS (AP) - After a 10-month independent investigation, a former senator has concluded that the blame for the catastrophe at Waco that killed 80 people rests solely with Branch Davidian cult leader David Koresh.
"There are no doubts in my mind," Special Counsel John Danforth said Friday. "This is not a close call."
Danforth concluded with "100 percent certainty" that federal agents did not start the fire or shoot at cult members during the 1993 inferno. The government also did not improperly use the military and did not engage in a major cover-up, Danforth said.
Whats wrong Al? You seem upset. I still respect your FAITH based beliefs. Shill, now thats a word you don't hear very often. Whats the word for someone who attacks the messenger because they can't disprove the message? I'm still waiting for your "independent" report. You won't find that in your trusty dictionary. You certainly can ignore my opinions if they bother you. Focus on the Danforth Report, or is he (and the report)a "shill" also ?
Where is your evidence that Danforth is anything but honest and unbiased? You haven't quit looking have you? Thousands await your new compelling evidence.
Associated Press, July 22, 2000
By Connie Farrow
ST. LOUIS (AP) - After a 10-month independent investigation, a former senator has concluded that the blame for the catastrophe at Waco that killed 80 people rests solely with Branch Davidian cult leader David Koresh.
"There are no doubts in my mind," Special Counsel John Danforth said Friday. "This is not a close call."
Danforth concluded with "100 percent certainty" that federal agents did not start the fire or shoot at cult members during the 1993 inferno. The government also did not improperly use the military and did not engage in a major cover-up, Danforth said.
Whats wrong Al? You seem upset. I still respect your FAITH based beliefs. Shill, now thats a word you don't hear very often. Whats the word for someone who attacks the messenger because they can't disprove the message? I'm still waiting for your "independent" report. You won't find that in your trusty dictionary. You certainly can ignore my opinions if they bother you. Focus on the Danforth Report, or is he (and the report)a "shill" also ?
Where is your evidence that Danforth is anything but honest and unbiased? You haven't quit looking have you? Thousands await your new compelling evidence.
C.R.Sam
Moderator Emeritus
Well, if the military was used, it was improper use.
And, seems that the military was used.
Sam
swampsniper
Member
What ever came of the allegation the Davidians were making amphetimines? This was used as a rational for allowing military resources.
Where is that in the report? I don't think thats the main issue is it? Whether the military was used or not seems to me to be a minor issue. That the FEDS mislead the military to secure their training facilities at F. Hood is a certainty and was wrong. Thats something for the GAO to investigate if its important enough. Some of the agents might have lied on their expense accounts also, that would not change the conclusion of the Dansforth Report would it?
Al needs to use his dictionary and lookup the meaning of r-e-d h-e-r-r-i-n-g.
Al needs to use his dictionary and lookup the meaning of r-e-d h-e-r-r-i-n-g.
swampsniper
Member
I am having a senior moment, but there is an act that precludes the use of military in civilian law enforcement. It was amended to permit such use in drug interdiction, therefore it was expedient to create a drug connection to make such involvement legal. If there was no drug issue, the military was not legally involved. If there were no drugs being made or trafficked someone lied. Someone please refresh this old farts memory, what is the name of the act?:banghead:
Is this what you are refering to?
Posse Comitatus Act
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/PosseComitatus.html
Posse Comitatus Act
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/PosseComitatus.html
swampsniper
Member
10-4 Old age ain't for sissies. Of all the things I've lost in life I miss my mind the most!!!
Ball in your court, telewinz.
Ball in your court, telewinz.
swampsniper
the BATFE did lie in order to train at Ft. Hood, they claimed it was for a drug related bust.
This is part of a transcript of the affidavit used by the BATF in order to obtain a search warrant of the Brand Davidian compound in Waco, TX.
......"Also on June 8, 1992, I interviewed and learned from her that in May of 1992 her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag" 2 M-16 machine gun CAR kits and 2 M-16 machine gun EZ kits. These kits contain all the parts of an M-16 machine gun except for the lower receiver unit which is the "firearm" by lawful definition. Ms. stated that the total amount of sales to the "Mag-Bag" was $1227.00. Within the past month I have spoken with , firearms technician with BATF and have learned that . has been under investigation in the past by BATF for engaging in a scheme to supply parts which would enable individuals to construct illegal weapons from various component parts."
....."At that time the invoices accompanying a number of packages reflected that they contained firearm parts and accessories as well as various chemicals. He stated that in May 1992, a package which was addressed to the "Mag-Bag" accidentally broke open while it was being loaded on his delivery truck. He saw that it contained three other boxes, the contents of which were "pineapple" type hand grenades which he believed to be inert. He stated that there were about 50 of the grenades and that he later delivered them to the Mt. Carmel Center."
..... "and learned from her that in May of 1992 her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag" 2 M-16 machine gun CAR kits and 2 M-16 machine gun EZ kits."
...."1 M-76 grenade launcher (not a typo, this is what it says) 200 M-31 practice rifle grenades 4 M-16 parts set kits "A" 2 flare launchers 2 cases (approximately 50) inert practice hand grenades 40-50 pounds of black gunpowder 30 pounds of potassium nitrate 5 pounds of magnesium metal powder 1 pound of igniter cord (a Class C explosive) 91 AR-15 lower receiver units 26 various calibers and brands of handguns and long guns 90 pounds of aluminum metal powder 30-40 cardboard tubes "
..."July of 1991 she saw Howell shooting a machine gun on the back portion of the commune property. She knew it was a machine gun because it functioned with a very rapid fire and would tear up the ground when Howell shot it."
....."She is sure the firearm was a machine gun because of the rapid rate of fire and the rate of fire was much different from that which was usually conducted during practice exercises on the compound. After describing the firing of this weapon to me, I believe that Ms. was describing the firing of an automatic weapon."
......."she overheard Howell and his closest associates discussing machine guns."
....."40 foreign nationals from Jamaica, United Kingdom, Israel, Australia, and New Zealand have entered the United States at various times in the past and have used the address of the Mt. Carmel Center, Waco, Texas, as their point of contact while here. According to INS records, most of these foreign nationals have overstayed their entry permits or visas and are therefore illegally in the United States. I know that it is a violation of Title 18, U.S.C. Section 922, for an illegal alien to receive a firearm."
..."also related that she was present at one of the study periods held by Howell when Howell passed his personal AK-47 machine gun around for the group to handle and look over. "
I can go on and on, with this evidence in support how can anyone say the many went after them on child abuse charges?
"Ball in your court, telewinz." One thing at a time please, I've got a full plate already. I do believe its a highly debated/heated issue also, Oh Boy!
the BATFE did lie in order to train at Ft. Hood, they claimed it was for a drug related bust.
This is part of a transcript of the affidavit used by the BATF in order to obtain a search warrant of the Brand Davidian compound in Waco, TX.
......"Also on June 8, 1992, I interviewed and learned from her that in May of 1992 her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag" 2 M-16 machine gun CAR kits and 2 M-16 machine gun EZ kits. These kits contain all the parts of an M-16 machine gun except for the lower receiver unit which is the "firearm" by lawful definition. Ms. stated that the total amount of sales to the "Mag-Bag" was $1227.00. Within the past month I have spoken with , firearms technician with BATF and have learned that . has been under investigation in the past by BATF for engaging in a scheme to supply parts which would enable individuals to construct illegal weapons from various component parts."
....."At that time the invoices accompanying a number of packages reflected that they contained firearm parts and accessories as well as various chemicals. He stated that in May 1992, a package which was addressed to the "Mag-Bag" accidentally broke open while it was being loaded on his delivery truck. He saw that it contained three other boxes, the contents of which were "pineapple" type hand grenades which he believed to be inert. He stated that there were about 50 of the grenades and that he later delivered them to the Mt. Carmel Center."
..... "and learned from her that in May of 1992 her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag" 2 M-16 machine gun CAR kits and 2 M-16 machine gun EZ kits."
...."1 M-76 grenade launcher (not a typo, this is what it says) 200 M-31 practice rifle grenades 4 M-16 parts set kits "A" 2 flare launchers 2 cases (approximately 50) inert practice hand grenades 40-50 pounds of black gunpowder 30 pounds of potassium nitrate 5 pounds of magnesium metal powder 1 pound of igniter cord (a Class C explosive) 91 AR-15 lower receiver units 26 various calibers and brands of handguns and long guns 90 pounds of aluminum metal powder 30-40 cardboard tubes "
..."July of 1991 she saw Howell shooting a machine gun on the back portion of the commune property. She knew it was a machine gun because it functioned with a very rapid fire and would tear up the ground when Howell shot it."
....."She is sure the firearm was a machine gun because of the rapid rate of fire and the rate of fire was much different from that which was usually conducted during practice exercises on the compound. After describing the firing of this weapon to me, I believe that Ms. was describing the firing of an automatic weapon."
......."she overheard Howell and his closest associates discussing machine guns."
....."40 foreign nationals from Jamaica, United Kingdom, Israel, Australia, and New Zealand have entered the United States at various times in the past and have used the address of the Mt. Carmel Center, Waco, Texas, as their point of contact while here. According to INS records, most of these foreign nationals have overstayed their entry permits or visas and are therefore illegally in the United States. I know that it is a violation of Title 18, U.S.C. Section 922, for an illegal alien to receive a firearm."
..."also related that she was present at one of the study periods held by Howell when Howell passed his personal AK-47 machine gun around for the group to handle and look over. "
I can go on and on, with this evidence in support how can anyone say the many went after them on child abuse charges?
"Ball in your court, telewinz." One thing at a time please, I've got a full plate already.
I do believe its a highly debated/heated issue also, Oh Boy!swampsniper
Member
I have a lot of scrap metal around. I have files, drills, saws. I have a chicken coop from where I could get nitrate. I have a sulphur water well, and I have trees. In fifty years of shooting and building muzzleloaders, I have a lot of knowledge. I am a compulsive reader, of anything and everything I trip over. I suppose by the govt. criteria I could be public enemy #1. If they decide it is my turn to be an example, are you gonna believe all they say about me? Am I a danger because I have material and tools? Is my knowledge threatening to public safety?
Can you see that if I catch them in one lie, I will assume that everything they say is suspect?
The liars in this issue are by now enjoying their retirement benefits somewhere, at my expense. I would rather see them hung, drawn and quartered. Lying to congress is indictable. Lying to the American People is rewarded.
How many lies qualify status as a liar? Is being a little bit dishonest different than being, for example, a little bit pregnant?
Can you see that if I catch them in one lie, I will assume that everything they say is suspect?
The liars in this issue are by now enjoying their retirement benefits somewhere, at my expense. I would rather see them hung, drawn and quartered. Lying to congress is indictable. Lying to the American People is rewarded.
How many lies qualify status as a liar? Is being a little bit dishonest different than being, for example, a little bit pregnant?
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
So telewinz, you agree with the government: Yes, the ATF and the FBI lied. Yes, they acted in violation of federal law. But they told the truth where it mattered and so what about the crimes committed.
That about sum up your position?
If so, your position, like the government's, is contemptible.
That about sum up your position?
If so, your position, like the government's, is contemptible.
Baba Louie
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,831
Byron... it is his opinion... and you (and also pehaps I) may scorn that line of reasoning... but telewinz does have Uncle Sam backing him up and, well, we know that Uncle Sam is NEVER EVER wrong.
Unless they're PROVEN wrong in a court of law after "sworn testimony, notorized affadavits/depositions" etc. have been reviewed by a judge/jury who agree... that they're wrong.
Certainly a black smear on Uncle Sam's otherwise clean slate IMO.
Adios
seeker_two
Member
If a pro-gov type like telewinz can see the contradictions & lies, why couldn't Danforth?...
Somehow I think we'll be talking about this in 50 years in the same way that we talk about the government's role in Wounded Knee (the 1st one) and the Tuskogee Experiments...
C.R.Sam
Moderator Emeritus
Sounds like my partner shooting any one of several different SEMI automatic weapons. Or double action revolver.
That witness may have been giving sworn testimony, but it was based on faulty knowledge.
And....it seems no "illegal" fully automatic weapons were found.
Sam
Keith
Member
In the last few years over 200,000 FAL rifle kits have been sold by dozens of importers. I bought one of these kits and it contained all of the parts (including a full-auto sear) EXCEPT the lower receiver - that part that defines it as a firearm...
Now, does that make me and the 200,000 others who bought and assembled these kits, criminals? Does that make the dealers guilty of selling "machine guns"?
NO! You are only guilty of a crime (a tax code violation) if you assemble this into a full auto rifle. Possession of gun parts is not a crime. Buying and selling of gun parts is not a crime.
What else did they have - he associated with illegal aliens? He had grenade launchers? Have you noticed that every single Yugo SKS sold has a grenade launcher on it?
Under this reasoning, every single person who has purchased a Yugo SKS should be raided by a truckload of Ninja-clad tax agents. Every single person who has purchased a FAL kit should be raided.
And for what - because these people had the "means" to violate an obscure provision of the tax code?
Ridiculous!
Keith
I guess some Davidians lied too...Say it ain't so!
San Antonio Express-News, Feb 23, 2000 (bids & pieces)
By Dick J. Reavis
For the first time, a Branch Davidian survivor of the Feb. 28, 1993, shootout at Mount Carmel has admitted that he fired at two of the four U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents who were killed during the battle.
His admission came as a surprise to fellow Davidian survivors of the 1993 events. One of them, David Thibodeau, in a memoir published in the fall, repeated the accepted wisdom among the group that Fagan, whose manner is that of a theologian, "was kneeling in prayer in the chapel while the bullets were flying." During their 1994 trial, Fagan and his fellow Davidian defendants did not take the stand. In the years since, three survivors of the shootout have testified before Congress, but none admitted firing on federal agents. During the 1994 sentencing hearing, Smith said: "The evidence from this trial has not faded from my memory. Certain images are clear. I see Livingstone Fagan dressed in combat gear, coldly shooting down Eric Evers with a military rifle as he rounded the corner of the compound and came into view. As Evers tried to get up, Fagan shot him twice more."
Associated Press, July 15, 2000 (bids & pieces)
By Suzanne Gamboa
On Friday, a five-member jury decided the government did not use excessive force in its attempt to serve search and arrest warrants on Branch Davidian leader David Koresh on Feb. 28, 1993. A gun battle broke out and four Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents as well as six Davidians were killed.
Jurors also decided the government's actions on April 19, 1993, the final day of the siege, were not negligent and did not contribute to the deaths of about 80 sect members. The government said suicidal sect members started fires in the building and were responsible for their own deaths.
If we applied some of the "logic" shown thus far on this thread by the anti-government types, then we need to treat ALL Davidian evidence as faulty. I for one won't, I still prefer the best evidence available and will continue to let it point me to the proper conclusion and not the other way around.
NEWS FLASH! OH NO!
NewsObserver.com/February 10, 2003
By Adam Nossiter
New Orleans -- Lawyers for Branch Davidians and their families pushing a wrongful death case against the government appeared to make little headway Monday with their argument that a judge who previously dismissed their case was biased.
But, But...it can't be.... NOOOOOOOOOO! (stop for breath) NOOOOOOOO!
Maybe he didn't understand the meaning of "is".....NOOOOOOOOO! But What if........., Could be....., might have been......NOOOOOOOOO! Wait! It wasn't in the movie!.....It wasn't in the book(s).... IT WAS IN A COURT OF LAW!.... HA HA HA "You can't fool me" "Where is that ignore list at?"
San Antonio Express-News, Feb 23, 2000 (bids & pieces)
By Dick J. Reavis
For the first time, a Branch Davidian survivor of the Feb. 28, 1993, shootout at Mount Carmel has admitted that he fired at two of the four U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents who were killed during the battle.
His admission came as a surprise to fellow Davidian survivors of the 1993 events. One of them, David Thibodeau, in a memoir published in the fall, repeated the accepted wisdom among the group that Fagan, whose manner is that of a theologian, "was kneeling in prayer in the chapel while the bullets were flying." During their 1994 trial, Fagan and his fellow Davidian defendants did not take the stand. In the years since, three survivors of the shootout have testified before Congress, but none admitted firing on federal agents. During the 1994 sentencing hearing, Smith said: "The evidence from this trial has not faded from my memory. Certain images are clear. I see Livingstone Fagan dressed in combat gear, coldly shooting down Eric Evers with a military rifle as he rounded the corner of the compound and came into view. As Evers tried to get up, Fagan shot him twice more."
Associated Press, July 15, 2000 (bids & pieces)
By Suzanne Gamboa
On Friday, a five-member jury decided the government did not use excessive force in its attempt to serve search and arrest warrants on Branch Davidian leader David Koresh on Feb. 28, 1993. A gun battle broke out and four Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents as well as six Davidians were killed.
Jurors also decided the government's actions on April 19, 1993, the final day of the siege, were not negligent and did not contribute to the deaths of about 80 sect members. The government said suicidal sect members started fires in the building and were responsible for their own deaths.
If we applied some of the "logic" shown thus far on this thread by the anti-government types, then we need to treat ALL Davidian evidence as faulty. I for one won't, I still prefer the best evidence available and will continue to let it point me to the proper conclusion and not the other way around.
NEWS FLASH! OH NO!
NewsObserver.com/February 10, 2003
By Adam Nossiter
New Orleans -- Lawyers for Branch Davidians and their families pushing a wrongful death case against the government appeared to make little headway Monday with their argument that a judge who previously dismissed their case was biased.
But, But...it can't be.... NOOOOOOOOOO! (stop for breath) NOOOOOOOO!
Maybe he didn't understand the meaning of "is".....NOOOOOOOOO! But What if........., Could be....., might have been......NOOOOOOOOO! Wait! It wasn't in the movie!.....It wasn't in the book(s).... IT WAS IN A COURT OF LAW!.... HA HA HA "You can't fool me" "Where is that ignore list at?"
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
"...a five-member jury decided the government did not use excessive force in its attempt to serve search and arrest warrants on Branch Davidian leader David Koresh on Feb. 28, 1993."
You know, I'm halfway glad we have the McDonald's coffee jury finding to reassure us that common sense is still uncommon...
Timeline: The BATF undercover agent left the Davidian compound in January. He filed his affidavit with the judge for the warrant. He claimed that Koresh had become a recluse, and thus dynamic entry would be needed. (This info is in the warrant; I read it with my personal unsworn eyeballs.)
There are numerous accounts of Koresh being out in public during late January and in February. Jogging, driving, playing music, being in the audience at a music event. (Ref: Numerous newspaper articles published during the "siege", as reporters ran all over McClennan County. I found the sheriff's comments to be the most telling, with "just people" possibly being off a week or so on "when" something happened.)
"Dynamic entry" was attempted February 28th.
Be interesting to see whether the sheriff was called to testify, or any local-area neighbors from around the Davidian compound.
Art
You know, I'm halfway glad we have the McDonald's coffee jury finding to reassure us that common sense is still uncommon...
Timeline: The BATF undercover agent left the Davidian compound in January. He filed his affidavit with the judge for the warrant. He claimed that Koresh had become a recluse, and thus dynamic entry would be needed. (This info is in the warrant; I read it with my personal unsworn eyeballs.)
There are numerous accounts of Koresh being out in public during late January and in February. Jogging, driving, playing music, being in the audience at a music event. (Ref: Numerous newspaper articles published during the "siege", as reporters ran all over McClennan County. I found the sheriff's comments to be the most telling, with "just people" possibly being off a week or so on "when" something happened.)
"Dynamic entry" was attempted February 28th.
Be interesting to see whether the sheriff was called to testify, or any local-area neighbors from around the Davidian compound.
Art
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
prepared in conjunction with the
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
together with
additional and dissenting views (bits & Pieces)
"After the siege, the Texas Rangers conducted an extensive search of
the Branch Davidian compound. They discovered 48 illegal machine guns,
seven illegal explosives of various types, nine illegal silencers and
over 200,000 rounds of ammunition."
"Branch Davidians had not only surrendered monetary assets to Koresh but allowed him to administer corporal punishment to children as young as 8 months old which often led to bleeding and severe bruising; permitted him to dictate the dissolution of marriages; empowered him to forbid married couples to engage in sexual relations; and authorized him to engage in sexual relations with all female members of the Davidians including girls as young as 10 years old."
" We agree with the majority's conclusion that the criminal conduct and
aberrational behavior of David Koresh and other Branch Davidians led to
the tragedies that occurred in Waco."
"We agree with the majority's finding that the ATF had probable cause
to obtain an arrest warrant for David Koresh and search warrants for the
Branch Davidian compound and the facility known as the ``Mag Bag.''
"In an attempt to gain additional information about the manufacture and possession of illegal weapons at the compound, the agent spoke with several former followers. They confirmed seeing numerous weapons including grenades, pump shotguns, and AK 47 machine guns. In January 1993, the agent spoke with David Block, who had been a Branch Davidian from 1981 through 1992. Block relayed that he had seen two other Branch Davidians using a metal milling machine and metal lathe to produce weapons and which can be used to convert legal weapons to illegal automatic weapons."
"Any doubts Koresh or others may have had about the validity of the
warrants should have been expressed through lawful means. However,
instead of challenging the validity of the warrants through the judicial
system, Koresh chose to instruct his followers to open fire on Federal
agents in the lawful execution of their duties."
YOUR HERO, YOUR CAUSE! Stand Tall
prepared in conjunction with the
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
together with
additional and dissenting views (bits & Pieces)
"After the siege, the Texas Rangers conducted an extensive search of
the Branch Davidian compound. They discovered 48 illegal machine guns,
seven illegal explosives of various types, nine illegal silencers and
over 200,000 rounds of ammunition."
"Branch Davidians had not only surrendered monetary assets to Koresh but allowed him to administer corporal punishment to children as young as 8 months old which often led to bleeding and severe bruising; permitted him to dictate the dissolution of marriages; empowered him to forbid married couples to engage in sexual relations; and authorized him to engage in sexual relations with all female members of the Davidians including girls as young as 10 years old."
" We agree with the majority's conclusion that the criminal conduct and
aberrational behavior of David Koresh and other Branch Davidians led to
the tragedies that occurred in Waco."
"We agree with the majority's finding that the ATF had probable cause
to obtain an arrest warrant for David Koresh and search warrants for the
Branch Davidian compound and the facility known as the ``Mag Bag.''
"In an attempt to gain additional information about the manufacture and possession of illegal weapons at the compound, the agent spoke with several former followers. They confirmed seeing numerous weapons including grenades, pump shotguns, and AK 47 machine guns. In January 1993, the agent spoke with David Block, who had been a Branch Davidian from 1981 through 1992. Block relayed that he had seen two other Branch Davidians using a metal milling machine and metal lathe to produce weapons and which can be used to convert legal weapons to illegal automatic weapons."
"Any doubts Koresh or others may have had about the validity of the
warrants should have been expressed through lawful means. However,
instead of challenging the validity of the warrants through the judicial
system, Koresh chose to instruct his followers to open fire on Federal
agents in the lawful execution of their duties."
YOUR HERO, YOUR CAUSE! Stand Tall
OK, Posse Comitatus while I'm here
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
prepared in conjunction with the
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
together with
additional and dissenting views
VI. MILITARY ASSISTANCE DID NOT VIOLATE POSSE COMITATUS
Posse comitatus is the statute that limits military participation in
civilian law enforcement. Military personnel may provide training to
Federal, State and local civilians law enforcement officials, as long as
it is not ``large scale or elaborate.'' Such assistance may not involve
DOD personnel in a direct role in law enforcement operations, except in
specific and narrowly drawn circumstances.
We agree with the majority's conclusion that Posse Comitatus was not
violated and share their concerns over the implementation of formal
guidelines and criteria in the nonreimbursable use of Department of
Defense resources in drug cases. However, we are concerned that the
implementation of such a litmus test could result in the denial of
needed assistance in the fight against the importation, production,
distribution and use of illegal drugs. Therefore, although we understand
this concern, we cannot support a recommendation for such guidelines and criteria when there is no objective evidence to believe that the
military has failed in its role to accurately and appropriately gage the
need of domestic law enforcement agencies for nonreimbursable
assistance.
The Department of Defense provided minor nonreimbursable assistance
to the ATF in connection with the events at Waco. Under 10 U.S.C. 371
and 32 U.S.C. 112, the Secretary of Defense is authorized to provide
military support to law enforcement agencies engaged in counter drug
operations. The Secretary of Defense is authorized to pay for the
support pursuant to Section 1004 of P.L. 101 510, Section 1088 of P.L.
102 190, and Section 1041 of P.L. 102 484. If a drug nexus does not
exist, the Economy Act requires that as a general matter, reimbursement
is required when equipment or services are provided to agencies outside
the Department of Defense. An exception may be made if there is some
training value to the DOD personnel involved.
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
prepared in conjunction with the
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
together with
additional and dissenting views
VI. MILITARY ASSISTANCE DID NOT VIOLATE POSSE COMITATUS
Posse comitatus is the statute that limits military participation in
civilian law enforcement. Military personnel may provide training to
Federal, State and local civilians law enforcement officials, as long as
it is not ``large scale or elaborate.'' Such assistance may not involve
DOD personnel in a direct role in law enforcement operations, except in
specific and narrowly drawn circumstances.
We agree with the majority's conclusion that Posse Comitatus was not
violated and share their concerns over the implementation of formal
guidelines and criteria in the nonreimbursable use of Department of
Defense resources in drug cases. However, we are concerned that the
implementation of such a litmus test could result in the denial of
needed assistance in the fight against the importation, production,
distribution and use of illegal drugs. Therefore, although we understand
this concern, we cannot support a recommendation for such guidelines and criteria when there is no objective evidence to believe that the
military has failed in its role to accurately and appropriately gage the
need of domestic law enforcement agencies for nonreimbursable
assistance.
The Department of Defense provided minor nonreimbursable assistance
to the ATF in connection with the events at Waco. Under 10 U.S.C. 371
and 32 U.S.C. 112, the Secretary of Defense is authorized to provide
military support to law enforcement agencies engaged in counter drug
operations. The Secretary of Defense is authorized to pay for the
support pursuant to Section 1004 of P.L. 101 510, Section 1088 of P.L.
102 190, and Section 1041 of P.L. 102 484. If a drug nexus does not
exist, the Economy Act requires that as a general matter, reimbursement
is required when equipment or services are provided to agencies outside
the Department of Defense. An exception may be made if there is some
training value to the DOD personnel involved.
YOUR HERO, YOUR CAUSE! Stand Tall
I beg to differ.
The guy may have been all the things the government claims.
He may have been badly in need of imprisonment.
The innocent people in the compound (children) didn't deserve to be burned to death.
Yes, they may have been using the children in that compound as leverage.
That is beside the point.
The government went charging in, yelling "YeeeeHawww" all the way.
People got killed that need not have been killed.
They had a responsibility to act like human beings.
It was law enforcement trying to serve a warrant, not the Marine Corps taking Iwo Jima.
I beg to differ.
The guy may have been all the things the government claims.
He may have been badly in need of imprisonment.
The innocent people in the compound (children) didn't deserve to be burned to death.
Yes, they may have been using the children in that compound as leverage.
That is beside the point.
The government went charging in, yelling "YeeeeHawww" all the way.
People got killed that need not have been killed.
They had a responsibility to act like human beings.
It was law enforcement trying to serve a warrant, not the Marine Corps taking Iwo Jima.
C.R.Sam
Moderator Emeritus
Minor ?
Maby in the context of declared warefare against another nation.
Sam
- Status