armoredman
Member
What a story sir! I hope the aftermath is even keel, and Conan The Moronian leaves you be.
Cane was no good there!
- Thread starter Carl Levitian
- Start date
- Status
KBintheSLC
Member
Excellent story. Glad you did what you did. Best way to deal with bullies is to stand your ground.
'nuff said
'nuff said
stickwhistler
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 34
I'm glad it turned out OK for you.
Unfortunately the main instigator - the mother - will probably not learn from this.
She escalated the situation with the phone call, instead of 'parenting' her child,
knowing that her husband would react as he did.
You may be an old soldier, but its obvious who has the bigger 'set',
and once again demonstrates that mindset is the main weapon.
Well done sir.
Unfortunately the main instigator - the mother - will probably not learn from this.
She escalated the situation with the phone call, instead of 'parenting' her child,
knowing that her husband would react as he did.
You may be an old soldier, but its obvious who has the bigger 'set',
and once again demonstrates that mindset is the main weapon.
Well done sir.
Carl,
I'm happy to hear you're ok and that this incident produced an epiphany without injury.
There are endless stories of a knife being used to stop an attack before anyone is injured, just like the number of times a gun is used to stop an attack without a shot being fired.
Both defensive uses hinge on the aggressor believing that the good guy will use the weapon if forced to. That takes a clear will on the part of the defender. Communicating that will is important.
You communicated the will to defend yourself using lethal force in the face of a lethal disparity of force. You did it clearly and in a manner the thug understood. You saved yourself and him in the process.
We've debated the merits of the stick vs. knife as a defensive tool here many times. There's little question that the stick is technically the better defensive tool, but the knife has the psychological advantage. Why is this? Everyone knows what being cut is like. They also have a vision, through experience, entertainment or imagination of what being badly cut/stabbed is. No one wants to go against a knife for those reasons. They hesitate and wonder if they can continue their aggression without being cut/stabbed and unless they have very good training in defending from a knife part of them knows what all of us know, "I don't think I can avoid getting cut". Making the predator reevaluate their safety often wins the day with a knife.
This isn't so with the stick. Most folks don't know what a stick can do and they believe that they can "take that stick away and make you eat it". In the hands of a moderately skilled defender a stick is a devastating weapon, but it just doesn't have the psychological "impact" of the knife.
Does that mean one should be carried over the other? Not if we all learn from Carl's lesson here. The stick can be carried at the ready almost all the time and where the knife can not. The stick can be a more effective tool in the hands of a moderately skilled user for self defense. BUT the knife causes more fear and is more likely to make a single aggressor reevaluate their safety in pressing an attack if they even partially believe that you'll use it.
An important lesson for all of us to try to learn from.
I'm happy to hear you're ok and that this incident produced an epiphany without injury.
There are endless stories of a knife being used to stop an attack before anyone is injured, just like the number of times a gun is used to stop an attack without a shot being fired.
Both defensive uses hinge on the aggressor believing that the good guy will use the weapon if forced to. That takes a clear will on the part of the defender. Communicating that will is important.
You communicated the will to defend yourself using lethal force in the face of a lethal disparity of force. You did it clearly and in a manner the thug understood. You saved yourself and him in the process.
We've debated the merits of the stick vs. knife as a defensive tool here many times. There's little question that the stick is technically the better defensive tool, but the knife has the psychological advantage. Why is this? Everyone knows what being cut is like. They also have a vision, through experience, entertainment or imagination of what being badly cut/stabbed is. No one wants to go against a knife for those reasons. They hesitate and wonder if they can continue their aggression without being cut/stabbed and unless they have very good training in defending from a knife part of them knows what all of us know, "I don't think I can avoid getting cut". Making the predator reevaluate their safety often wins the day with a knife.
This isn't so with the stick. Most folks don't know what a stick can do and they believe that they can "take that stick away and make you eat it". In the hands of a moderately skilled defender a stick is a devastating weapon, but it just doesn't have the psychological "impact" of the knife.
Does that mean one should be carried over the other? Not if we all learn from Carl's lesson here. The stick can be carried at the ready almost all the time and where the knife can not. The stick can be a more effective tool in the hands of a moderately skilled user for self defense. BUT the knife causes more fear and is more likely to make a single aggressor reevaluate their safety in pressing an attack if they even partially believe that you'll use it.
An important lesson for all of us to try to learn from.
Carl Levitian
member
"Try a Cane masters cane and buy an instructional video with it. They aren't terribly expensive and they can provide the most incredible butt whupping possible"
Roger, no offence, but I had a real knobby and knarley Irish blackthorn stick with me that I chose to leave right where it was. For me to try to use a stick on this guy would have been like Mr. Rogers using an umbrella on Hulk Hogan. Anything short of a medevil mace or ax would have been usless. Just too big a guy for me to handle with anything less than the threat of death behind it.
Roger, no offence, but I had a real knobby and knarley Irish blackthorn stick with me that I chose to leave right where it was. For me to try to use a stick on this guy would have been like Mr. Rogers using an umbrella on Hulk Hogan. Anything short of a medevil mace or ax would have been usless. Just too big a guy for me to handle with anything less than the threat of death behind it.
Dave P
Member
Carl, ya done good!
7X57chilmau
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2008
- Messages
- 687
Carl, I read your story last night, and was transfixed. Not only did you react well to the threat, you wrote a heck of a little short-story there too. I say well done.
While I very rarely find myself involved in any confrontation more heated than an office debate, its been my observation that a knife is a very useful defensive weapon.... Not because it's particularly effective in doing damage, not that they offer massive stopping power, but as a result of the psychology involved.
So long as your assailant is a rational human (and even your Hulk was clearly rational in your encounter, if not particularly intelligent), the desire to leave the situation whole will be a powerful one. Few of us get to adulthood without laying some portion of our anatomy open at some point, and it's easy for any of us to extrapolate that injury (done to ourselves by ourselves) into what might result from someone who actually intends us harm.
It's all to easy to envision looking down at your own gutpile. And if that doesn't check you, it's probably time to put down the crack pipe.
Well done, and epiphany well arrived at.
J
While I very rarely find myself involved in any confrontation more heated than an office debate, its been my observation that a knife is a very useful defensive weapon.... Not because it's particularly effective in doing damage, not that they offer massive stopping power, but as a result of the psychology involved.
So long as your assailant is a rational human (and even your Hulk was clearly rational in your encounter, if not particularly intelligent), the desire to leave the situation whole will be a powerful one. Few of us get to adulthood without laying some portion of our anatomy open at some point, and it's easy for any of us to extrapolate that injury (done to ourselves by ourselves) into what might result from someone who actually intends us harm.
It's all to easy to envision looking down at your own gutpile. And if that doesn't check you, it's probably time to put down the crack pipe.
Well done, and epiphany well arrived at.
J
Geneseo1911
Member
My sentiments exactly. My wife was annoyed that I was ignoring her until I read her the story. We were both blown away by the unbelievable lack of any sense of living in a society that these human detritus displayed.
I'm very glad you got out of the situation OK. At least some of the other folks in the restaurant were willing to take action rather than mind their own business. I cannot tell you how glad I was to hear that the dinosaur-brained lout was embarrassed and potentially taught a lesson by the police, and hopefully later the criminal court system. Sounds like assault to me...
You also have forced me to reconsider my knife as a defensive weapon. I carry a small "working knife" every day, but I always assumed that no knife I could carry as a pocket knife every day would be useful as a deterrent or as a weapon. Now I'm thinking that although we can't carry guns in the PR of IL, perhaps a better knife and some edged weapon training could be a very viable defensive tool.
Thanks for sharing, Carl.
Glad you're okay.
I can understand how you thought, but it's hard to armor eyes, temple, kneecaps, ankle bones, windpipe, and fingers. And a stick gives distance to engage those targets, and deceptive speed.
You used intimidation. I'm glad it worked for you this time.
John
I can understand how you thought, but it's hard to armor eyes, temple, kneecaps, ankle bones, windpipe, and fingers. And a stick gives distance to engage those targets, and deceptive speed.
You used intimidation. I'm glad it worked for you this time.
John
P97
Member
I'm an Old Fart thats 68 years old, and I say Amen to this. I'm too old to fight fair, or run. What other options do I have?
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Carl,
Do you carry a cell phone also?
When The Mother Of The Barbarian Spawn whipped out her cell phone, it might have been a good time to use your own communicator, to call the local gendarmerie and report a potential problem. Perhaps you might want to consider programming their non-emergency number into your speed dial, if you aren't sure it's an emergency just yet? It's nice to be able to get checked off in the "Victim" block on the paperwork when the dust settles, and being the first to call can help with that.
Otherwise, your points re. the knife are well taken. The only shadow in the sunshine of that particular theory is running into someone who is really good with their hands, that is, a serious martial artist. However, almost all the folks I've ever bumped into in my own limited experience who were good enough to have to worry about in that regard were 1) not oversized musclebound Blutos, and 2) not at all likely to threaten physical violence to inoffensive persons. While there are some genuine bad actors out there with some genuinely impressive skills, thank goodness the self discipline required to develop those skills tends to be a pretty good sorting mechanism as far as thugs are concerned. Not 100% of the time, but mostly.
There is of course the legitimate concern that someone so off balance as to behave in such a fashion might also have a firearm illegally concealed about their person. Such things do happen.
I'm amazed at the whole situation, and I appreciate your sharing it. As bad as it all was, I think you did the right thing. People ought to have a little respect for others, even if it doesn't come naturally.
lpl
Do you carry a cell phone also?
When The Mother Of The Barbarian Spawn whipped out her cell phone, it might have been a good time to use your own communicator, to call the local gendarmerie and report a potential problem. Perhaps you might want to consider programming their non-emergency number into your speed dial, if you aren't sure it's an emergency just yet? It's nice to be able to get checked off in the "Victim" block on the paperwork when the dust settles, and being the first to call can help with that.
Otherwise, your points re. the knife are well taken. The only shadow in the sunshine of that particular theory is running into someone who is really good with their hands, that is, a serious martial artist. However, almost all the folks I've ever bumped into in my own limited experience who were good enough to have to worry about in that regard were 1) not oversized musclebound Blutos, and 2) not at all likely to threaten physical violence to inoffensive persons. While there are some genuine bad actors out there with some genuinely impressive skills, thank goodness the self discipline required to develop those skills tends to be a pretty good sorting mechanism as far as thugs are concerned. Not 100% of the time, but mostly.
There is of course the legitimate concern that someone so off balance as to behave in such a fashion might also have a firearm illegally concealed about their person. Such things do happen.
I'm amazed at the whole situation, and I appreciate your sharing it. As bad as it all was, I think you did the right thing. People ought to have a little respect for others, even if it doesn't come naturally.
lpl
I know this is the NFW forum, but I prefer to carry a .45 for fool repelling. Although most folks with any sense are terrified of the thought of being sliced open by ANYTHING! There's just something intimidating about huge, gaping, blood-gushing wounds.
And that idiot sounds like the thug-wannabe Neanderthal that lives down the street from me.
And that idiot sounds like the thug-wannabe Neanderthal that lives down the street from me.
7X57chilmau
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2008
- Messages
- 687
Ron, Carl's in Maryland.....
J
J
I had thoughts similar to Lee Lapin's too, calling the police when it already looked like things were going south. I keep the non-emergency # and several security offices for local haunts of mine pre-programmed in my cell.
But frankly the actions of these people are so freakin irrational it's almost surreal. I probably wouldn't have believed what was going on and dismissed it too.
"This older gentleman is eating in a spot I feel entitled to yet have absolutely no claim on as it's a public place. I know! I'll call my large 'roiding husband to to drive all the way over here and beat him up!"
Oh my god, what is this woman smoking? It sounds like some good ----. Years of training have told me though, trying to think like a crazy person is a waste of time.
But frankly the actions of these people are so freakin irrational it's almost surreal. I probably wouldn't have believed what was going on and dismissed it too.
"This older gentleman is eating in a spot I feel entitled to yet have absolutely no claim on as it's a public place. I know! I'll call my large 'roiding husband to to drive all the way over here and beat him up!"
Oh my god, what is this woman smoking? It sounds like some good ----. Years of training have told me though, trying to think like a crazy person is a waste of time.
good job. I´m 6 4" and 210pds, but
i tend to have OC and at least a small
but very sharp knife on me.
Here in Bars i often drink wheatbeer from long ( 14" slender glasses )
It happened to me two times that i reacted to
"Put that glass down and fight like a man! ( vs 3men)
by going into defensive stance handling the glass like a short stick.
A look into the eyes of the leader and slowly shaking the head in disapproval.
Deliver the message: Brawl = no. War = Yes.
i tend to have OC and at least a small
but very sharp knife on me.
Here in Bars i often drink wheatbeer from long ( 14" slender glasses )
It happened to me two times that i reacted to
"Put that glass down and fight like a man! ( vs 3men)
by going into defensive stance handling the glass like a short stick.
A look into the eyes of the leader and slowly shaking the head in disapproval.
Deliver the message: Brawl = no. War = Yes.
Last edited:
zxcvbob
Member
I always thought a knife was best kept hidden until you strike with it. Will have to rethink that...
Great story, btw. Glad it had a happy ending.
Great story, btw. Glad it had a happy ending.
I wonder if it is the same Panera that I grab a bite at once and a while. Shocking.
Glad to hear that you are okay other than in a state of incredulity. Some people.
Should charge the wife for incitement!
I lost my everyday pocket knife of two years a month ago. Time to accept it, and start to carry another one.
Glad to hear that you are okay other than in a state of incredulity. Some people.
Should charge the wife for incitement!
I lost my everyday pocket knife of two years a month ago. Time to accept it, and start to carry another one.
rondog said:
We need to have THREE Verifiable death threats to carry here in Maryland. Carl, it sounds like that was number one7x57 said:
Last edited:
KingEdward
Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2010
- Messages
- 27
you did everything right.
always take a firm but defensive posture with calm tone
and demenor.
The cameras are on and you can be sure people are listening.
Those will be the same people who the cops interview.
He was crazy and you were calm. Way to go.
there are alot of entitled princesses out in the world.
always take a firm but defensive posture with calm tone
and demenor.
The cameras are on and you can be sure people are listening.
Those will be the same people who the cops interview.
He was crazy and you were calm. Way to go.
there are alot of entitled princesses out in the world.
leadcounsel
member
Carl - you did great and came out on top. Excellent story that was a must read. Funny that the guy got a ticket and arrested. I hope you appear in court and testify against him.
Thanks for your service.
You make yourself out to be rather frail. I would suggest that if it's true, you should get a CCW or if you have one you should CCW. That lesson shows that you could very well have gotten seriously injured or killed if that man did attack you, even if you did have a knife or cane. He likely would have quickly disarmed you. My advice is to get a CCW and carry.
Others will say that this all could have been avoided by giving in and moving. Afterall it is just a table and you or someone else could have died - and it did tie up several police for a while. However, I like your 'stand your ground' approach. Too many bullies in the world, and guys like this need to go to jail for their behavior and their kids need to learn lessons.
Thanks for your service.
You make yourself out to be rather frail. I would suggest that if it's true, you should get a CCW or if you have one you should CCW. That lesson shows that you could very well have gotten seriously injured or killed if that man did attack you, even if you did have a knife or cane. He likely would have quickly disarmed you. My advice is to get a CCW and carry.
Others will say that this all could have been avoided by giving in and moving. Afterall it is just a table and you or someone else could have died - and it did tie up several police for a while. However, I like your 'stand your ground' approach. Too many bullies in the world, and guys like this need to go to jail for their behavior and their kids need to learn lessons.
Carl Levitian
member
[I always thought a knife was best kept hidden until you strike with it. Will have to rethink that...
Great story, btw. Glad it had a happy ending.]
Hey zxcbob,
I always though so too, until of late.
This is the second time in a year and a half that having a knife in my hand made the situation go away. I believe both incidents were because I look to be a white bearded old man. And I am, I can't deny what I see in the mirror. My dear granddaughter thinks I look like Gandalf. But neither the two street punks who wanted my wallet and cell phone last year or this muscle daddy wanted to deal with a knife.
I'm going to be doing some thinking on street tactics and pondering the old sayings that get repeated forever. Sometimes each individual situation may warrant it's own tactic.
Great story, btw. Glad it had a happy ending.]
Hey zxcbob,
I always though so too, until of late.
This is the second time in a year and a half that having a knife in my hand made the situation go away. I believe both incidents were because I look to be a white bearded old man. And I am, I can't deny what I see in the mirror. My dear granddaughter thinks I look like Gandalf. But neither the two street punks who wanted my wallet and cell phone last year or this muscle daddy wanted to deal with a knife.
I'm going to be doing some thinking on street tactics and pondering the old sayings that get repeated forever. Sometimes each individual situation may warrant it's own tactic.
herohog
Member
If there ARE CCW's available to people, even "connected ones", look at the regs with a fine tooth comb and look for the loopholes. In Louisiana, before Shall Issue, I got my permit by being self employed and having a permit be a requirement of my job as an FFL. Yeah, I had to get a 10k Bond, get the LEO to sign off on my ability to handle a gun (I ran the same qualification test his officers did) and pass 32 different background checks and received my permit. Look at the permit number and note the date of issue. They were THAT hard to get!
Classified00
Member
First off, great thread!!! This really takes me back!
While I don't frequent BladeForums these days this issue was discussed to death there several years ago. There are many who claimed that a knife was more intimidating than even a gun. The reason that's most often given is that EVERYONE has been cut at least once in their life (doing dishes, opening a box, a "lock" that doesn't, etc...). We all know how painful a cut can be. Most people however have not been shot and have not been beaten with an impact weapon (of course there are exceptions). As a result, knives can often be a more potent deterrent than other weapons. The sight of one being wielded against us reminds, on some level, of that time when ....
That said, it goes without saying that if racking the shotgun doesn't do the job, you better be ready to line up the bead and press.
While I don't frequent BladeForums these days this issue was discussed to death there several years ago. There are many who claimed that a knife was more intimidating than even a gun. The reason that's most often given is that EVERYONE has been cut at least once in their life (doing dishes, opening a box, a "lock" that doesn't, etc...). We all know how painful a cut can be. Most people however have not been shot and have not been beaten with an impact weapon (of course there are exceptions). As a result, knives can often be a more potent deterrent than other weapons. The sight of one being wielded against us reminds, on some level, of that time when ....
That said, it goes without saying that if racking the shotgun doesn't do the job, you better be ready to line up the bead and press.
- Status
