Cane was no good there!
- Thread starter Carl Levitian
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This thread makes me wonder about the practicality of a hefty metal cane. A 3' length of 1/2" steel pipe might work for it. Give it a coat of paint and put a rubber tip and a handle on it and you'd have one heck of a formidable cane.
I don't care if you're Andre the Giant, if you get whacked hard by a 3' pipe you're going to have some broken bones.
I don't care if you're Andre the Giant, if you get whacked hard by a 3' pipe you're going to have some broken bones.
RoostRider
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Wow, that's harsh Carl.... that sucks no matter how it turns out doesn't it?.... You did it right, no one can deny it... everyone walks away (some in cuffs *snicker*)
Please pursue this issue and follow up on it. Talk to the store manager, and any of the employee's/witnesses you can, and ask them to come forward as well. Be sure to ask them to send trespass notice to him, and his wife and daughter, so that they are never allowed back in that store (maybe even an entire shopping center?)
Let's hope they offer him some counseling....
Sometimes, even though you know what you could have done to avoid a situation, you still have to wonder what you did 'wrong', huh?
True story-
I grew up out in the sticks with a outdoor/house cat that would kill and eat just about anything. It often brought back rabbits that were it's size or better. It also had a habit of leaving it's prey's heads on the doorstep.... but that, and my sisters gag reflex, are another story...
I brought home the schools rat for the summer vacation one year (someone had to take care of it). The rat, being the schools rat, was as tame as they get. He was handled consistently during the school days. The cat was absolutely enthralled with the rat in a cage and spent the first few hours just starring at it and we would swat it away from the cage as it approached. The rat spent his time hiding as best he could in a chicken wire cage in the middle of the living room floor.
Well, it wasn't long before no one was looking and the cat had managed to open the rats cage.
The commotion that ensued got everyone's attention well enough as that rat tore chunks out of the cat and the cat tore around the room trying to avoid the 'viscous' rat.
After we managed to round up and heard out the distressed cat.... well, the cat never inquired about that rat cage again...
I learned a valuable lesson about 'fight and flight' right then and there... it was backed up furthermore when I saw that same cat kick a large aggressive dogs but up one side and down the other when he got too close to the kittens....
Let's hope Billy Bulging Muscles learned the lesson without the wounds to lick. Given the situation, sadly, I'm guessing not..... to everyone he knows and tells the story to, he's the victim... went to defend his wife and daughter and this joker pulls a knife on him (they probably know him well enough to know better though)
Please pursue this issue and follow up on it. Talk to the store manager, and any of the employee's/witnesses you can, and ask them to come forward as well. Be sure to ask them to send trespass notice to him, and his wife and daughter, so that they are never allowed back in that store (maybe even an entire shopping center?)
Let's hope they offer him some counseling....
Sometimes, even though you know what you could have done to avoid a situation, you still have to wonder what you did 'wrong', huh?
True story-
I grew up out in the sticks with a outdoor/house cat that would kill and eat just about anything. It often brought back rabbits that were it's size or better. It also had a habit of leaving it's prey's heads on the doorstep.... but that, and my sisters gag reflex, are another story...
I brought home the schools rat for the summer vacation one year (someone had to take care of it). The rat, being the schools rat, was as tame as they get. He was handled consistently during the school days. The cat was absolutely enthralled with the rat in a cage and spent the first few hours just starring at it and we would swat it away from the cage as it approached. The rat spent his time hiding as best he could in a chicken wire cage in the middle of the living room floor.
Well, it wasn't long before no one was looking and the cat had managed to open the rats cage.
The commotion that ensued got everyone's attention well enough as that rat tore chunks out of the cat and the cat tore around the room trying to avoid the 'viscous' rat.
After we managed to round up and heard out the distressed cat.... well, the cat never inquired about that rat cage again...
I learned a valuable lesson about 'fight and flight' right then and there... it was backed up furthermore when I saw that same cat kick a large aggressive dogs but up one side and down the other when he got too close to the kittens....
Let's hope Billy Bulging Muscles learned the lesson without the wounds to lick. Given the situation, sadly, I'm guessing not..... to everyone he knows and tells the story to, he's the victim... went to defend his wife and daughter and this joker pulls a knife on him (they probably know him well enough to know better though)
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Vonderek
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- 1,538
I agree Carl has an abundance of courage. There's nothing as steadfast as a righteous man who knows he's in the right. However, I disagree that Mr. Dianabol-the hubby-has "a big set". As soon as I read the description of his truck I knew what was in store. He probably had one of those ridiculous chrome bullsacks hanging from the otherwise unused trailer hitch. A phony set to compensate for his lack of a real set. A common side-effect of steroid abuse is atrophy of the testicles. Another side effect is what is commonly referred to "Roid-Rage". His low-class wife probably told him on the phone that "an old guy with a cane" was not letting her and Princess sit at their table. Hubby, knowing that "old guy" was an easy victim, worked himself into a chemical-induced rage as he sped to the scene...no doubt cutting off other motorists and running red lights in the process. A typical predatory lowlife jacka$$ that seems all too prevalent in modern society.
now think about what he would have done if you had a CCP and a pistol. probably pee his pants and run good job, these big macho "I'm the toughest, best man out there" types of guys who feel like they can rule the world need to be put in their place. and it looks like you did just that.
good job, these big macho "I'm the toughest, best man out there" types of guys who feel like they can rule the world need to be put in their place. and it looks like you did just that.Technically Maryland allows CCW for some exceptions including crime victim. I'd spend the cash to roll the dice and go for a permit. Especially with the recent statements from witnesses and the violence witnessed by the cops.
Make lemonade from this lemmon.
I was happy to hear how the story ended. Icing on the cake would be to hear they towed the truck after after scum got arrested.
Make lemonade from this lemmon.
I was happy to hear how the story ended. Icing on the cake would be to hear they towed the truck after after scum got arrested.
I agree with JShirley, a firearm is a high level force (highest available for a civie really) and it would much more difficult to justify even brandishing it in this situations against an unarmed man, despite that man's size. There probably would have been screaming and panic from everyone in the whole establishment and people dropping to the ground or running for the doors. Somehow I think this would have made witnesses less sympathetic too.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned OC spray. It would have been easily justifiable to spray him right in the face without warning the moment he approached the table. I think it would be pretty easy to articulate he was a threat even before he spoke due to the manner in which he arrived (being called in for the express purpose of assaulting someone over a seat).
I'm surprised no one has mentioned OC spray. It would have been easily justifiable to spray him right in the face without warning the moment he approached the table. I think it would be pretty easy to articulate he was a threat even before he spoke due to the manner in which he arrived (being called in for the express purpose of assaulting someone over a seat).
One of the things we try to do here, and the experienced folks in S&T try to do, is point out that the gun is not some magic talisman and that the use of a gun in SD isn't the simple issue that many think it is. Dependence upon any one weapon for SD is much like only having a hammer in the tool box at home. Good for when a hammer is what's needed but more than a poor choice in most other situations.
Madcap_Magician
Member
Wow, that's an amazing story.
My favorite part is when the other cop is outside ticketing the moron's vehicle for parking in the fire lane.
I have one like that. It's a .75" steel pipe filled with wood, with a lacquered oak ball on top attached with a brass collar. The whole shaft is lacquered black and looks like blackthorn. I forget who made it, but it was some guy who has a yahoo.com store selling custom steel-pipe walking sticks.
My favorite part is when the other cop is outside ticketing the moron's vehicle for parking in the fire lane.
elmerfudd said:
I have one like that. It's a .75" steel pipe filled with wood, with a lacquered oak ball on top attached with a brass collar. The whole shaft is lacquered black and looks like blackthorn. I forget who made it, but it was some guy who has a yahoo.com store selling custom steel-pipe walking sticks.
ARCTICJEW
Member
Joseph Opinel is smiling down at you. A whole new meaning to the phrase "bagel and shmear".
zxcvbob
Member
1/2" EMT (thin electrical conduit) is just the right size and heft, and a rubber tip fits on it perfectly. Not sure if it's strong enough tho' because it has a seam. Maybe if filled with structural foam (etc) so it can't collapse...
MikeG
Member
two thoughts:
I'm dumbfounded at this sociopathic family's behavior. The mother was dead wrong in not correcting the daughter's rudeness first. Then they thought it appropriate to have Mongo the husband beat down a disabled elder for not obeying their demands. I don't think anyone could predict the consequences if it had come to blows, but it wouldn't be worth them sitting where they want. Must be that entitlement generation I've heard about.
As to Mongo, I'm prepared to defend my loved ones if necessary, but that was wildly unnecessary.
Another is the Opinel. I wonder how a 'tactical folder' might have influenced the police's reaction. The Opinels are good effective knives (I'm a fan), but don't convey intent like a black, high tech looking folder might.
A knife may deter where a stick doesn't because of the perceived injuries. The aggressor might tolerate a few bruises, but nobody likes being cut or punctured. Look at all the folks afraid of needles. As a klutz, I've bruised myself and cut/punctured myself. I regard cuts and punctures as worse.
All in all, handled well and a good outcome.
I'm dumbfounded at this sociopathic family's behavior. The mother was dead wrong in not correcting the daughter's rudeness first. Then they thought it appropriate to have Mongo the husband beat down a disabled elder for not obeying their demands. I don't think anyone could predict the consequences if it had come to blows, but it wouldn't be worth them sitting where they want. Must be that entitlement generation I've heard about.
As to Mongo, I'm prepared to defend my loved ones if necessary, but that was wildly unnecessary.
Another is the Opinel. I wonder how a 'tactical folder' might have influenced the police's reaction. The Opinels are good effective knives (I'm a fan), but don't convey intent like a black, high tech looking folder might.
A knife may deter where a stick doesn't because of the perceived injuries. The aggressor might tolerate a few bruises, but nobody likes being cut or punctured. Look at all the folks afraid of needles. As a klutz, I've bruised myself and cut/punctured myself. I regard cuts and punctures as worse.
All in all, handled well and a good outcome.
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maxxwilde
Member
Carl said:
Just a thought, he took his jacket off before he entered to look intimidating. He walked through the door with his arm's swung out to look intimidating. He's a bodybuilder for a reason and has probably spent a lot of time looking at himself in the mirror. With your knife you could have taken that away from him very quickly. He's probably got more pride in his muscles than he has brains between his ears and the thought of getting them messed up with your knife is what gave him pause.
I wasn't there and I don't know him, but it's just the impression i got. Either way, glad things worked out and Conan got humbled.
M
Just a thought, he took his jacket off before he entered to look intimidating. He walked through the door with his arm's swung out to look intimidating. He's a bodybuilder for a reason and has probably spent a lot of time looking at himself in the mirror. With your knife you could have taken that away from him very quickly. He's probably got more pride in his muscles than he has brains between his ears and the thought of getting them messed up with your knife is what gave him pause.
I wasn't there and I don't know him, but it's just the impression i got. Either way, glad things worked out and Conan got humbled.
M
Carl Levitian
member
"now think about what he would have done if you had a CCP and a pistol."
I'm not sure that wouldn't have created many more major problems than I need.
If I had a gun, then what? He dares me to shoot him. Or I just pull out my gun and people panic and stampede for the door, knocking down some kid or old person in the melee. Or I do shoot him, and he survives, and tells the cops he was just going over to me to demand an apology for insulting his wife, or something stupid like that? Or if he dies, and his wife says he was only coming over to me to tell me I owe his wife an apology for something? Or I shoot him and the bullet goes through and hits a patron at the counter?
No, I have mixed feelings on guns. I love them, I own some, and I and my wife go target shooting once or twice a week. I keep a .38 revolver by my bedside as a home defense gun.
But somehow, I've lived almost my entire life without carrying one, except for when I was a police officer in Colorado for a few years. I have survived to become a social security collecting senior citizen. Yeah, sometimes I'm a little jealous of my fellow Americans who live in the 38 of 50 states who can carry if they wish. But for the most part, I don't feel its really needed if you go through life using your head for something besides a hat rack.
Yes, I've had a few scary moments here and there, but for the most part, looking around and taking stock, I got by. Heck, one time I even got by using a car washing brush with a two foot wood handle to whack a problem. The regular Joe person will probably live his whole life without even getting in a fist fight, let alone a fight to the death with weapons. But it does happen so you keep it in mind and stay aware of whats going on around you.
Once in a while I go over and read the strategies and tactics forum, and that scares me. I hate to admit that I see a great many of my fellow gun nuts as idiots who are depending on a gun for a solution to any problem out of the ordinary. Looking back on my incident at Panera, I don't quite know what I would have done with a gun if I'd had one. What I wish I had, was a nice big can of Fox Labs or Saber red. A problem I fixed this morning.
Even with a knife, I had less than lethal options to me. Retreating and doing quick snap thrusts to any hand and wrist that comes toward me, targeting hands and tendons and ligaments that will disable that limb. He was big, but a sharp knife will sever enough nerves and muscles to make him a bit more harmless. If I run totally out of options and have no choice, a knife can/will be lethal.
And I want less than lethal options. All the idiots who are so darn anxious to pull their trusty gun, have never had to shoot someone at close range, and see the light in their eyes go out forever. It changes everything forever. Anyone who says they have and it does not bother them is one of two things or both; a liar or a psycho.
maxxwilde probably has it pegged right; this was just a big gym poseur bully that had no idea anyone was going to do what I did. It wasn't in the scenario he had in his head. This is the same kind of creep you knew in junior high school where the kid who flunked two grades was a head taller and some heavier than all the other kids, and he liked to throw his size and weight around. He wasn't expecting or wanting to deal with a serious threat to himself. The fact that as soon as he saw a knife, he jammed on the brakes and wouldn't come near me. Just stood wondering what the heck to do now. Closing my eyes and thinking about the whole thing 48 hours later, and after the excitement has worn off, I think he was actually taking a step back and unclenching his fists right before we could hear the first sirens coming.
I may even be a bit glad I don't live in a ccw state. If he'd been carrying a small handgun, he'd have shot me when I came up with a knife. If I'd had a gun too, then we have a gunfight in a Panera Bread? Lucky for me, people around here don't carry guns. Now I've added some Fox labs pepper spray to my edc and I think I'll be fine. Heck, I rode my Sportster out to the Oregon coast and back with no firearm along, and I was fine. I had a couple of items, but they were never needed.
A gun is a very limited tool to use in all situations. Besides being a PITA to tote around all the time.
I'm not sure that wouldn't have created many more major problems than I need.
If I had a gun, then what? He dares me to shoot him. Or I just pull out my gun and people panic and stampede for the door, knocking down some kid or old person in the melee. Or I do shoot him, and he survives, and tells the cops he was just going over to me to demand an apology for insulting his wife, or something stupid like that? Or if he dies, and his wife says he was only coming over to me to tell me I owe his wife an apology for something? Or I shoot him and the bullet goes through and hits a patron at the counter?
No, I have mixed feelings on guns. I love them, I own some, and I and my wife go target shooting once or twice a week. I keep a .38 revolver by my bedside as a home defense gun.
But somehow, I've lived almost my entire life without carrying one, except for when I was a police officer in Colorado for a few years. I have survived to become a social security collecting senior citizen. Yeah, sometimes I'm a little jealous of my fellow Americans who live in the 38 of 50 states who can carry if they wish. But for the most part, I don't feel its really needed if you go through life using your head for something besides a hat rack.
Yes, I've had a few scary moments here and there, but for the most part, looking around and taking stock, I got by. Heck, one time I even got by using a car washing brush with a two foot wood handle to whack a problem. The regular Joe person will probably live his whole life without even getting in a fist fight, let alone a fight to the death with weapons. But it does happen so you keep it in mind and stay aware of whats going on around you.
Once in a while I go over and read the strategies and tactics forum, and that scares me. I hate to admit that I see a great many of my fellow gun nuts as idiots who are depending on a gun for a solution to any problem out of the ordinary. Looking back on my incident at Panera, I don't quite know what I would have done with a gun if I'd had one. What I wish I had, was a nice big can of Fox Labs or Saber red. A problem I fixed this morning.
Even with a knife, I had less than lethal options to me. Retreating and doing quick snap thrusts to any hand and wrist that comes toward me, targeting hands and tendons and ligaments that will disable that limb. He was big, but a sharp knife will sever enough nerves and muscles to make him a bit more harmless. If I run totally out of options and have no choice, a knife can/will be lethal.
And I want less than lethal options. All the idiots who are so darn anxious to pull their trusty gun, have never had to shoot someone at close range, and see the light in their eyes go out forever. It changes everything forever. Anyone who says they have and it does not bother them is one of two things or both; a liar or a psycho.
maxxwilde probably has it pegged right; this was just a big gym poseur bully that had no idea anyone was going to do what I did. It wasn't in the scenario he had in his head. This is the same kind of creep you knew in junior high school where the kid who flunked two grades was a head taller and some heavier than all the other kids, and he liked to throw his size and weight around. He wasn't expecting or wanting to deal with a serious threat to himself. The fact that as soon as he saw a knife, he jammed on the brakes and wouldn't come near me. Just stood wondering what the heck to do now. Closing my eyes and thinking about the whole thing 48 hours later, and after the excitement has worn off, I think he was actually taking a step back and unclenching his fists right before we could hear the first sirens coming.
I may even be a bit glad I don't live in a ccw state. If he'd been carrying a small handgun, he'd have shot me when I came up with a knife. If I'd had a gun too, then we have a gunfight in a Panera Bread? Lucky for me, people around here don't carry guns. Now I've added some Fox labs pepper spray to my edc and I think I'll be fine. Heck, I rode my Sportster out to the Oregon coast and back with no firearm along, and I was fine. I had a couple of items, but they were never needed.
A gun is a very limited tool to use in all situations. Besides being a PITA to tote around all the time.
7X57chilmau
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2008
- Messages
- 687
Carl, I can't disagree with a single word in your last post... But I's a Canadian...
J
J
Carl Levitian
member
"Carl, I can't disagree with a single word in your last post... But I's a Canadian..."
Yeah, maybe so, but then Canadians are so darn polite!
Yeah, maybe so, but then Canadians are so darn polite!
PX15
Member
FWIW:
I'm 67... Also in the 5'9"/155lb range. There were very few people I could whip when I was a young man, and even less now..
So, I carry a pistol (legally) in my back pocket ALL the time.. Recently I have begun also carrying a folding ao knife clipped to my pocket.
Now, I consider a knife as an absolute LAST resort in self defense. I'll go thru the whining, begging, or whatever it takes to keep my old body intact, but when, or if, it becomes apparent that the person threatening me is serious about doing me harm I will use whatever I have available in my defense.
My first choice is to try and defuse the situation.. IF the situation cannot be defused that's why I have a 380cal. Seecamp in my pocket... IF all else fails, or I run out of rounds, my backup plan is my Kershaw Shallot ao knife..
I AM of the opinion that to a large percentage of the population, both good folks, and bad folks, an opponent who has a knife, and seems willing to use it, is a pretty scary proposition... I think it's just instinctive to want to avoid being cut, sliced, diced, or killed with a knife, no matter how bad a dude (or dude'ess) might be.
There are no absolutes in personal confrontations, and some folks might just take your knife away and use it on you.. But given the choices of HAVING a knife as a b/u, or NOT having a knife as a b/u, I'll take the knife everytime, and take my chances..
But that's just me.
Jesse
P.S. Thank goodness I live in a State that allows cc... And if you carry the right firearm, in the right holster, it's not a PITA at all... Quite the contrary.
I'm 67... Also in the 5'9"/155lb range. There were very few people I could whip when I was a young man, and even less now..
So, I carry a pistol (legally) in my back pocket ALL the time.. Recently I have begun also carrying a folding ao knife clipped to my pocket.
Now, I consider a knife as an absolute LAST resort in self defense. I'll go thru the whining, begging, or whatever it takes to keep my old body intact, but when, or if, it becomes apparent that the person threatening me is serious about doing me harm I will use whatever I have available in my defense.
My first choice is to try and defuse the situation.. IF the situation cannot be defused that's why I have a 380cal. Seecamp in my pocket... IF all else fails, or I run out of rounds, my backup plan is my Kershaw Shallot ao knife..
I AM of the opinion that to a large percentage of the population, both good folks, and bad folks, an opponent who has a knife, and seems willing to use it, is a pretty scary proposition... I think it's just instinctive to want to avoid being cut, sliced, diced, or killed with a knife, no matter how bad a dude (or dude'ess) might be.
There are no absolutes in personal confrontations, and some folks might just take your knife away and use it on you.. But given the choices of HAVING a knife as a b/u, or NOT having a knife as a b/u, I'll take the knife everytime, and take my chances..
But that's just me.
Jesse
P.S. Thank goodness I live in a State that allows cc... And if you carry the right firearm, in the right holster, it's not a PITA at all... Quite the contrary.
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Deltaboy1984
Member
Well Praise the Lord your OK Carl. Glad you had your knife. What is this world coming too when a Young man wants to beat up a vet over a Table at a Cafe. A real man would have talked to Carl respectfully and then told his wife and daughter to say we're sorry and left.
RoostRider
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 670
Yeah, but a real mans wife wouldn't have made that call to him.....
I whittles what I see
Member
Carl i'm just happy you didn't get hurt. Sounds like you tried to calm the situation more than anything and things worked out the best for you. I think your story will help others. Sometimes bullies get shown they are not top dog by people just trying to eat breakfast.
As Winston Churchill said "Walk softly and carry a big stick", or knife, or gun.
As Winston Churchill said "Walk softly and carry a big stick", or knife, or gun.
Dan M.
Member
Great story well told, Carl. I don't think I could've finished a bagel after that.
Deltaboy1984
Member
After 25 years as a Vol Chaplin and Pastor I can tell you that you would be suprised at the Stunts some Real Mans wives I have seen pulled.
robert garner
Member
As Winston Churchill said "Walk softly and carry a big stick"
Winny was good with words,but the above is our own T.R.Roosevelt
0 I like a happy ending thanks for sharing this'n
robert
Winny was good with words,but the above is our own T.R.Roosevelt
0 I like a happy ending thanks for sharing this'n
robert
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