Can't get X-Bullets to shoot less than 2.5" in my 7mm-08

[Macchina]

I am loading up a big game load for my Savage 7mm-08. I am trying to load 140gr Barnes X-Bullets over Varget or H4350. I have tried all powder weights (in 1gr increments, including 1 over in Varget after max load showed no signs of over-pressure), and I have tried seating .03" and .05" off the lands. Any advice, or do they just not shoot that accurately? I am getting .75" groups with 140gr Nosler Balistic Tips (my whitetail load). Any other bullets I should try instead of the x-bullet? I like to hunt with sub-moa or moa loads.

 

[33rowdy]

Copper fouling is the very first thought.

 

[Inspector3711]

Or your rifle hates those bullets. My .25-06 will shoot tight little groups (3/4" or less) with anything from 75 grain vmax to 120 grain core loct but it hates 87 grain sierra varminters. It shoots 3-4" groups with those so I avoid them.

 

[Macchina]

Right from the start they have been bad shooters. I clean my gun after a heavy day of shooting, or after 2 light days of trying out loads. I use Birchwood Bore Scrubber with a bristle, then swab till the patches come out clean. Does this not work on copper?

 

[Macchina]

Any recommendations on a good 7mm elk bullet?

 

[depoloni]

I'd probably load a 150 Partition, one of the Barnes Triple-shock bullets, or perhaps a bonded 150-160 grain like a Scirocco, Accubond, etc.

I mention the Triple Shoks because I've heard the original X-bullets tended to be inaccurate as heck for about everyone in everything. The newer version-ed TSX's appear to generally be much more accurate across a much broader range of cartridges. I presume you were indeed trying the older X-bullets and not the triple-shoks?

The one thing about the barnes bullets, generally they like more rather than less jump into the lands. More so with the older version X bullets from what I've been told. Never loaded them, but the triple-shoks and other bullets I mentioned above are all very accurate out of my T/C 7mm-08 Pro Hunter.

 

[gvnwst]

Hornady 139gr or 154gr SST.

 

[fireman 9731]

hmmm... that doesn't makes sense...

Barnes makes some good bullets IMO.

My 22-250 will shoot X bullets sub MOA...

I dont know anything about a 7mm-08 but the first thing that comes to my mind would be to try a heavier bullet, maybe up to 175 grains if you have a 1:9 twist rate, if not 160, and 150 grain bullets are also available.

I wouldn't give up just yet on the Barnes X bullet, they are a premium bullet with great performance.

 

[janobles14]

for most all rifles that i have loaded the x bullets for (especially the older smooth ones) you MUST seat them lower than normal. they are longer than normal rounds and will stabilize on the way out. this has always worked very well for me and i can cut holes with some of my rifles.

 

[paperpuncher49]

Copper is less dense than lead, so any given weight of copper bullet will be longer than the same weight lead bullet. The longer the bullet, the faster the twist needed to stabilize its flight. Barnes will tell you that you can use a lighter copper bullet than a conventional lead bullet, because copper stays together and PENETRATES. While not recommending it, I know someone who has shot 7 elk with a .243, all one shot kills, all recovered at the point of impact or only a short distance from it. Obviously, shot placement is important. Try a lighter weight (shorter) bullet. I have had excellent accuracy, i.e., one ragged hole, with Barnes X bullets.

 

[243winxb]

Barnes X-Bullets are needed to be seated more off the lands. Seat them deeper. Don't ask me why, but saw a thread here that its a must do with Barnes Factory Instructions. Look at post number 3 here. .050" off lands.http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5402776 If you knew the history of Barnes bullets , you would never buy them.

 

[243winxb]

Finding the correct seating depth for VLD or Longer..... Barnes Bullets

Not Seating Into The lands

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This can work with all style bullets IMO http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59915
Quote:
Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Background

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifles. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.


Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker

 

[snuffy]

My thoughts on this are you don't NEED a solid copper bullet for elk. I don't buy into the hype that they're so darn hard to kill.

With the 7-08, a stiff load behind a nosler accu-bond-160 grainer, or a 154 Hornady interbond, will do the job for elk. The accu-bond will penetrate deeper, but not expand very big and not retain as much weight. The Hornady interbond will expand bigger, retain more weight, but not penetrate as deep.

Your cleaning procedure leaves much to be desired. You MUST use some form of copper solvent to remove what I suspect is heavy copper fouling. The barnes x bullet is notorious for severe fouling. You HAVE to get that gone before you try anything else. Any solvent the claims to be a copper solvent would be good to use. The chemical types have amonia in them in several different forms. Be careful, some acn harm the bore by pitting if the instructions are NOT follwed precisely. Sweets is one that IF you leave it in the barrel more than 15 minutes, it'll attack the barrel steel, pitting it! BUT it gets the copper out!

 

[Silverado6x6]

I recently found that the new Barnes bullets the Triple shocks and TSX are a longer bullet compared to a standard lead core bullet, what I reloaded was for a Springfield Armory M1A in .308. The recommended "jump" was .050-.070 to the lands, also that it was better to use a slightly lighter bullet to get the proper spin rate. This of course I have discussed in gas gun forums and may not be relevant to a bolt action rifle with a longer barrel, but I feel that I should pass on my experiance with using them. The new Barnes are all copper and hunters in Alaska are amazed at the performance, the rention of weight and the uniform petal out effect, one shot kills. For longer shots over 200 yards though I would use the MRX that retains a lead base for downrange stability. Barnes has load data and recommended barrel twists per bullet on its website.

 

[fireman 9731]

If you knew the history of Barnes bullets , you would never buy them.

So whats so bad about their history? I read Barnes' version of it in their latest manual and all I remember was a hard working family business dedicated to a better bullet....

 

[243winxb]

So whats so bad about their history?

The barnes x bullet is notorious for severe fouling.

And the original bullets produced to much PSI when using loading data for same weight, standard types of bullets like Sierra & Hornady & Speer. So to fix both problems they cut rings into the bullets. Bullet jackets of 90% copper and 10% zinc are the standard.

You MUST use some form of copper solvent to remove what I suspect is heavy copper fouling.

There were some problems early on with high pressure and with barrel fouling.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/product-news/publication-mentions/heavyweight-hitters/

The most noticeable change has been the addition of three or four grooves in the shank of the bullet. These act to reduce friction and fouling

The key word here is "reduce" from the article. The problems have NOT been Eliminated because copper is still to soft.

 

[243winxb]

Barnes Loading Data LInk

michaelmcgo, maybe Barnes data will help? It a PDF file. http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/7mm-08RemingtonWeb.pdf Good Luck

 

[fireman 9731]

From: http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/product-news/publication-mentions/heavyweight-hitters/

There were some problems early on with high pressure and with barrel fouling. The technological evolutionary process eliminated or vastly reduced those problems over the years, but it was a struggle to recover from the damaged reputation.

Barnes Bullets are hunting bullets, You aren't going to be shooting hundreds of rounds at a time so copper fouling couldn't be that bad, personally I havent had any problem at all out of my 22-250 shooting varmint grenades or X bullets.

And is the history of a company that did research and development because they wanted to improve its product a bad thing? I don't think so.

All of Barnes' bullets were revolutionary when they were introduced, and some still are. It seems to me that people just don't want to move on to better non-traditional things.

 

[Silverado6x6]

Fireman I agree with you a lot, as a hobbyist gunsmith and reloader while a hunter in Alaska I am constantly evaluating better technology, years ago I thought the 400 corbon was the hot ticket so I bought a barrel for my Glock, I had many problems with that cartridge and though there are fixes I relegated it to the junk drawers and was glad that I only loaded a couple dozen rounds.

Also was those Hornady moly coated V max bullets, fouls up the gas system on my AR so all that I did load went into the tumbler and polished out, even the loaded rounds, sure there still is a bit on the base but I am not going to pull a couple hundred .233's.

Also I remember the hoopla about the Black Talons, sort of an early version of the Barnes tactical pistol bullets just now coming out, of which I just ordered three boxes of for my 40/10mm. I am impressed with the performance factor especially when having to pass through heavy denim layers. Almost all of my .30 cal and up is now Barnes Triple Shocks, funny thing is I avoided them because of cost but with the store shelves completely bare week after week I caved in and bought as much as I could afford, they are not the ones you would want to plink with all day though. Barnes is serious mojo as far as creating massive wound channels and I am glad its a US company and strives to create a better product. And no I do not work for Barnes.

 

[Grumulkin]

Copper fouling would be something to consider.

Another thing is that Barnes bullets shoot best when pushed fast. A wimpy load won't push them fast enough. It's also possible a 7mm/08 won't give quite enough velocity.

I shoot Barnes 140 gr. XLC bullets in a 7mm Rem. Mag. and they shoot very well. They didn't shoot well in a 7mm/08 handgun. The groups were starting to tighten up around the same time that signs that pressure was approaching maximum occurred so I couldn't push the load far enough.

 

[41 Mag]

michaelmcgo,

If you want to shoot the Barnes "X" then you will need to back off the lands, and start as already posted, at around .050". I have shot them in several calibers and several different rifles and once you get off the lands they generally improve groups dramatically. I also load them to top end loads as well which is generally somewhere in the same neighborhood as other bullets of similar weights. The pressure issues I have found generally come more from them getting jammed up at the start of the firing process than from the powder charges. As for fouling issues, I never really noted them to be any worse in my rifles than most other bullets.

As to getting all of the copper out of your bore, sometimes it is necessary to get a bit more aggressive cleaner like Sweet's or Montana Extreme, to get it all out. Follow either of these with several clean patches and several lightly oiled ones. Either of these will get most if not all of the copper out of your bore in a relatively short period of time. I would also recommend that you use a nylon brush when using them as they will attack the bronze brushes leaving a false indication of copper.

Some of the original X bullets and calibers in which I have had excellent accuracy and top velocities are 90gr - .243, 100 & 115gr - .257, 100 & 120gr - .277, 120gr - .284, 125, 130, 165gr - .308. For most of these I had identical loads using standard bullet types that would all shoot to within 1-2" at 200yds, and most of the time less. This allowed me to use either load with out having to change my sight settings for general hunting. It might take a bit more tweaking to get both together, but it does make it nice for practicing once you have it done.

As for other bullets, I would look hard at the Hornady Interlock line or if your a Nosler fan, the Accubond. However as was mentioned, most of the makers have something in a 140gr range, which should work well for your intended use.

Good luck in your pursuit.

 

[NCsmitty]

It's threads like this that reinforces my commitment to jacketed lead bullets. The exorbitant prices and problems of Barnes bullets in some rifles, will keep me shooting "old school" reloads for sometime to come.
The choices for "lead free" bullets are increasing rapidly and someone will get it right eventually, at a reasonable cost.

NCsmitty

 

[Steve H]

I have been shooting X bullets for just about as long as they have been around. 270 280 7mm Mag & 25/06 All 4 have given me excellent results. the only gun that didn't shoot less than 1" groups is the 7 Mag and it's just a hair over 1" (Ruger). The other three have been as tight as 1/2" ( all Rem 700 rifles. My 25' 06 Sendaro loves the X.

 

[jimmertoons]

I have a Model 7 in 7mm-08, and haven't found a 140gr bullet that will shoot under 3" at 100 yrds. I have tried changing powders, bullet types, cases, primers, seating depths, etc. It will shoot 110 gr and 165 gr around moa all day long. Maybe try a heavier bullet?