Case Head separation. Worst that can happen?

[Wreck-n-Crew]

"all the pressurized hot gas is turned loose inside the locked breech".

Seems a lot of it went forward with the bullet.

"right up there with a bore obstruction. "

Certainly seems like a separated case does not case the same effect (affect) as a bore obstruction

Pressure will escape to the point of least resistance so it's hard to say if the bullet moved forward before or at the same time as the case split.

I only had it occur once in a 556 and really could not tell it happened until the next round did not chamber.

I have to agree.

An overcharge of the wrong powder scares me more than anything.


Anyone remember the THR thread last year where a member mixed up his Tite Group powder with rifle powder and blew his gun up last year? Mangled his hand pretty good and the rifle was in pieces.

Anyhow I'm sure a lot of damage to rifles has been blamed on case head separation when in fact they were overloads. Kind of muddies the water a bit if you ask me.





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[Elkins45]

This is a picture of a partial case head failure. It was 56 grains of IMR4831 behind a 130 grain bullet in a .270 Winchester. The rifle was a LH Savage 110, and this was the event that made me start trading my RH guns for LH. I was shooting from a bench and I knew something had happened when all my ammo boxes (which were sitting on the unoccupied bench to my left) went flying. Heavy, full ammo boxes.

My right hand caught a big jet of hot gas and received a pretty uncomfortable burn. The extractor was blown out of the bolt. Because it was a lefty the bulk of the gas went out the vent hole on the left. If it had been a RH action I'm not certain that I would still have all my fingers. I always wear glasses, so maybe I would have kept my vision. I still marvel at how violently that vent blast hit those ammo boxes on the adjacent bench.

That was a partial head rupture. A separation just means you pull out the back half of a ruined case and then have to break out the rod and brush to pull out the front. Big difference. Notice the location of the crack as compared to the pix posted earlier. The well-documented bright ring of an impending case head separation happens higher up on the case.

A full failure usually means your gun explodes.

 

[Rule3]

Perhaps a more careful reading of my post would answer some of your questions - and assumptions.

No not really. I am very capable of reading and comprehending what you wrote, I just do not happen to agree with it.

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

Sorry to get everyone started on a tangent regarding case head separation vs. case head rupture. I tried to note that my experience was not a standard case head separation in my original post, but it was easily obscured by the details.

I've never had a complete case head separation while shooting (with the exception of the FAL incident), but have had a few cases that were barely hanging on by a thread. I've used the paperclip detection method, but I've personally found that a loading block and a good flashlight is what works best for me to spot them before they happen.

I agree with rcmodel; a case head separation is generally something you won't even notice until extraction or trying to chamber the next round. Even so, I try to be as diligent as possible during brass prep to try to cull any questionable cases before they get that far.

Once bitten, twice shy, and all that...

 

[45_auto]

It is one of the most dangerous conditions you could imagine, right up there with a bore obstruction.

I agree with Rule3. You're wildly off base on your assessment of the danger of a case head separation. I've experienced a couple and seen several dozen more of them, primarily in 1919's with improperly adjusted headspace. As RCModel pointed out earlier, case head separations are common enough that broken shell extractors were standard military issue at least through the early 1970's (I had one in my M16 cleaning kit), and you can buy them in any common caliber.

It also appears that Western Powders (manufacturer of Ramshot, Accurate, and Norma powders) doesn't agree with your assessment of a case head separation. They consider them just part of handloading. Can't say the same thing about a bore obstruction.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/07/case-head-separation-causes-and-cures/

Case head separations are just part of handloading, but they can be avoided by thorough case examination after each firing.

 

[Walkalong]

Case head separations are just part of handloading, but they can be avoided by thorough case examination after each firing.

I would say this, in reloading case head separations can happen, but are 99% avoidable with proper care.

I see no reason for anyone to consider it normal and of no concern. We should do all the checks and make sure we are sizing properly so we can avoid them.

Why take chances we don't have to? I like to error on the side of caution.

 

[Rule3]

I would say this, in reloading case head separations can happen, but are 99% avoidable with proper care.

I see no reason for anyone to consider it normal and of no concern. We should do all the checks and make sure we are sizing properly so we can avoid them.

Why take chances we don't have to? I like to error on the side of caution.

Absolutely what Walkalong stated above. I did not intend for this to be a clash of opinions and it is certainly not something that anyone would want to happen.

That said, as with most topics. it has gone to total extremes, that nothing much happens, all the way up to it's the worst, and your firearm will burn, blow up and will be destroyed.

 

[Reloadron]

Slamfire:

Has anyone else had Vihtavuori N140 corrode in loaded ammo?

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3745264

The green corrosion inside the brass cases came from nitric acid gas outgassing from old deteriorated gunpowder. This nitric acid gas also attacks the brass causing case splits. When the corrosion is extreme it will cause pin hole through corrosion of the case. I have seen all of these.

Gunpowder lifetime is unpredictable, a rule of thumb is 20 years for double based, 45 years for single based. Some fails sooner. Hardly any gunpowder is safe past 45 years. Old gunpowder in bulk will autocombust. I would not trust your keg of old gunpowder, I would get it out of the house. Old gunpowder in cartridge cases will blow up your gun. Heat is the worst enemy of gunpowder. Temperatures over 86 F accelerate the deterioration.

Years ago VihtaVuori was my main go to powder for M1 Garand loading, used primarily N-140 and N-135. The below EnBloc clip was the last of a lot I loaded around '95. All of the N-140 from that powder lot shot fine back when it was loaded, I never got to the orphan clip that day. After about 15 years the corrosion was apparent. I guess I could try pulling some of the bullets and peeking inside. Those eight rounds were my only experience with N-140 and corrosion, likely thousands of 30-06 was loaded with N-140 by me. The cases are nickel plated. The second picture is factory federal 30-30 ammunition in the ammo holders, it was a 20 round box. Additionally, I have other brass cases I loaded with N-140 during the 90s which are fine today. I can't think of anything that clip was exposed to the other loads wasn't?

The only possible is if I shot the rest of the lot that day and possibly never got to that En-bloc and it sat in direct sun on a 90 degree day and the powder started to out-gas.



On the Federal 30-30 even the bullet tips are corroded as well as the brass from the inside out. The N-140 30-06 looks to be only the case necks. Beats the heck out of me.

Ron

 

[ReloaderFred]

Without going back and reading all the posts in this thread, I can say it's been many years since I had a case head separation, since I set up my sizing dies for bottleneck cartridges to only set the shoulder back .002".

What I can tell you is the last time I did have a case head separation, it made me say heck and darn, or words to that effect......

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[double bogey]

I had a case head separation with a .300 winmag. No big deal, got the case out, cleaned chamber and kept (after inspecting brass) shooting. It was due to case stretching from sizing.
Had a 10-22 case head separation. Lots of gas and particles out the ejection port and magazine well. This one due to dirty chamber and slightly out of battery firing. All the gas out the breach due to an unlocked breach was disconcerting.
I would hate to deal with a larger caliber in an unlocked breach.

 

[Reloadron]

Generally speaking, nothing happens, except you will probably have the front part of the case stuck in the chamber.

They can usually be yanked out with a bronze bore brush.

There is no catastrophic gas release into the action because the case breaks further in the chamber where the thicker case web ends.

So what it left still properly seals the chamber.

It was so common 100 years ago the military issued broken case extractors so you could easily get it out and keep right on shooting.

rc

Broken Case Extractors:

The two long ones between the plastic holders are original GI 30-06, the remainder are a few 7.62 x 39, .308 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington and I haven't a clue. While the broken case can normally be removed with a bronze bore brush sometimes a really stuck case can be a challenge. These tools make things easy.

Ron

 

[Slamfire]

Years ago VihtaVuori was my main go to powder for M1 Garand loading, used primarily N-140 and N-135. The below EnBloc clip was the last of a lot I loaded around '95. All of the N-140 from that powder lot shot fine back when it was loaded, I never got to the orphan clip that day. After about 15 years the corrosion was apparent. I guess I could try pulling some of the bullets and peeking inside. Those eight rounds were my only experience with N-140 and corrosion, likely thousands of 30-06 was loaded with N-140 by me. The cases are nickel plated. The second picture is factory federal 30-30 ammunition in the ammo holders, it was a 20 round box. Additionally, I have other brass cases I loaded with N-140 during the 90s which are fine today. I can't think of anything that clip was exposed to the other loads wasn't?

Wow! I am surprised by the number of reports of 90's vintage Vihtavuori powder that have been reported as going bad. A bud of mine got out of high power, this year he sold off his bullets and powders. He had a jug of unsealed N135 nor N140 that he purchased in the mid nineties and I talked to the guy who bought it. It had gone bad even though it had been stored in an air conditioned house. I have no idea why the lead tips on that Federal factory ammunition corroded,. I don't know how nitric acid gas could wick its way through the case neck and up to the bullet tip, but whatever the cause, something corrosive caused those bullet tips to corrode.

I would like to use your pictures and ask permission for use in subsequent posts on old ammunition and gunpowder. I have not found anyone else educating the shooting public on the chemistry, thermophysics, and dangers of old ammunition, so there is a lot of denial on this subject. Shooters really don't want to believe that their stash won't last forever.

 

[Reloadron]

Slamfire, you are more than welcome to use the pictures. I actually still have mid 90s VihtaVuori including an 8Lb jug of either N-135 or N-140 and maybe a few 2 Lb jugs of same which seem fine. If I get to it this weekend I'll open up a few on the clip and see what we have inside.

While old ammunition is amusing people need to let common sense prevail. I trash it for the most part unless I absolutely know it to be good. I figure it this way, a better rifle cost a few grand and while at 66 I am not as pretty as I was I can't see blowing up a few grand of rifle and blowing up my face to save a few bucks. That said I also tend not to get paranoid.

Again, absolutely feel free to use my pictures.

 

[TRX]

I went through a lot of brass in my 1891 Mauser. I reload them until they die. Usually they split around the neck, but I had a batch of old brass that liked to split down the sides or separate the case heads.

The '91 doesn't have any of the fancy "gas handling" features of the '98, and I shoot left-handed, so most of the gas went right into my face.

Other than some soot I never had any issues.

My SMLE was nearly as bad; the chamber was so huge I got two or three loads out of new brass before they'd split near the base. Nothing but some puffs there, either.

 

[fguffey]

I have to agree.

An overcharge of the wrong powder scares me more than anything.

Anyone remember the THR thread last year where a member mixed up his Tite Group powder with rifle powder and blew his gun up last year? Mangled his hand pretty good and the rifle was in pieces.

Anyhow I'm sure a lot of damage to rifles has been blamed on case head separation when in fact they were overloads. Kind of muddies the water a bit if you ask me.

Case head separations are a form of forgiveness for bad habits.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341348

F. Guffey

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Case head separations are a form of forgiveness for bad habits.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341348

F. Guffey

That's not the one. In the thread im remembering he mixed up the powders and it was tite group.

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