Caution when selling your guns on GB, GA, etc

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Wow. I can't agree with much of what the OP has stated.

Other than the "detective" story.

I roughly count up some 21 handguns that I've sold on GunBroker over the years. Some locally face to face, many shipped out of state to places like New York. Not to mention the long guns that I've sold.

It's quite a benign thing to do actually. No need to be paranoid IMHO.

Now, selling miscellaneous junk on CraigsList can be a little scary.
@CoRoMo.... just because nothing has happened to you yet doesn't mean it couldn't. After an auction I have met with sellers at a gun store where they did the transfer and I got my money. Who would be stupid enough to meet a stranger in a parking lot where you could either be mugged or passed some fake papers. Not me. Better safe than sorry my motto, but that's just my 2 cents worth.
 
Who would be stupid enough to meet a stranger in a parking lot where you could either be mugged or passed some fake papers. Not me. Better safe than sorry...
Who would be stupid enough to go to the grocery store where you could either be mugged or be given counterfeit currency in your change. Just because it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't mean that it eventually won't. Mighty paranoid, I know, but better to be safe than sorry... right? :rolleyes:

Your "advice" fails when applied to reality. Hundreds if not thousands of FTF transactions are going to occur today across the country. Many will occur as you advise against; in parking lots (the horror) between strangers. Tomorrow, please round up all the citations of muggings, robbery, fraud, etc. and detail the evidence for us all. Please do. This way we all have a good indication of how prevalent these crimes are.
...meet a stranger in a parking lot where you could .. be .. passed some fake papers.
Passed some fake papers? Seriously? That's a danger to the seller? Jeez.
 
Actually, meeting in a public place like a parking lot (NOT at your home, or the buyer's) is some of the better advice out there for dealing with private transactions with parties you don't personally know before hand.

(As is taking along a friend to observe/witness, making sure you've remembered your defensive sidearm, and using good situational awareness.)

Many gun dealers (FFLs) are not very happy with you transacting your private business on their premises unless they're getting a cut, which means they'll be performing an official, recorded, transfer on a 4473. That damages at least two of the primary reasons for doing a private sale.
 
I'm surprised that so many people are so intent on following unconstitutional, un-American, illegal laws. I like face to face cash sales. I hand the guy money, he hands me gun. No background check, no ID, no BS. The government is not entitled to know about sales between private parties, and no amount of lawmaking will change that unless they repeal the 4th Amendment.
 
Several of my buddies have done legal face to face sales in parking lots and have had no problems at all. The hell with meeting in some private location. A parking lot is the best place, lots of witnesses if the <deleted> hits the fan. If it were me, I'd go armed, check their DL to make sure they are in the same state, hand the cash, gets the goods and go.
 
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I'm starting to think the OP may be right about gunbroker.com. I've sold guns on there before and never had so many kooks trying to angle their way into getting my shotgun other than by simply bidding, winning and paying.

It's not much better than craigslist.
 
Voltia said:
I'm surprised that so many people are so intent on following unconstitutional, un-American, illegal laws.

Most people are probably not willing to go to jail to prove the point that, in their opinion, a law is unconstitutional, un-American, or illegal.
 
Several of my buddies have done legal face to face sales in parking lots and have had no problems at all. The hell with meeting in some private location. A parking lot is the best place, lots of witnesses if the <deleted> hits the fan. If it were me, I'd go armed, check their DL to make sure they are in the same state, hand the cash, gets the goods and go.
You think a parking lot is a good location? Are you serious? Ever read the news about the <deleted> that happens at a WalMart parking lot... like abductions, mugging, car theft. Plus, how are you an expert on real or fake ID? How are going to make a copy for your records? But to each his own.
 
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I've used GunBroker to buy and sell a number of guns. Never had a problem. Yep, there are lots of idiots on there, just like CraigsList. But they are pretty easy to avoid. I simply state in the ad that ALL transactions, buy or sell, go through an FFL holder. That settles the problem.

Face to face sales are OK where I live, but I won't do them. I know a guy who bought a gun from a dealer. Then he decided he didn't like it and put it up for sale. Sold it locally in a face to face deal. A couple of days later the gun showed up at a crime scene. Guess who they tracked the gun back to? He eventually cleared himself of any wrong doing, but he spent more a than a few hours being questioned by police, and had to hire a lawyer. Not worth it.
 
You think a parking lot is a good location? Are you serious? Ever read the news about the <deleted> that happens at a WalMart parking lot... like abductions, mugging, car theft.
Sure. But you can take some very simple steps to avoid that kind of trouble. Abductions, muggings, and car thefts do not happen to armed folks, with witnesses, making plans ahead of time to meet a specific person (with records of the meeting preparations via. email perhaps) to conduct a firearms sale. Those negative things generally happen to unaware folks with poor situational awareness, who are alone and distracted, and are accosted by random predators looking for an easy score.

Plus, how are you an expert on real or fake ID?
Why would you need to be? You are not required to even SEE the buyer's (or seller's) ID --- let alone verify its authenticity. All the law says is you must not "know or have reason to know" that the purchaser is prohibited, or from outside your own state. You seem to be taking on a much higher standard of proof than is required.

How are going to make a copy for your records? But to each his own.
If you are recording who you sell to, or who you buy from, you are actually negating some of the reasons folks have for doing private, "Face to face" transactions in the first place. You certainly CAN do this, but if you're that picky perhaps you should just have a licensed dealer do all your sales for you.
 
Why would you need to be? You are not required to even SEE the buyer's (or seller's) ID --- let alone verify its authenticity. All the law says is you must not "know or have reason to know" that the purchaser is prohibited, or from outside your own state. You seem to be taking on a much higher standard of proof than is required.
Sorry to tell you but you do not know the laws here in NC. A handgun buyer HAS TO HAVE a pistol permit or a concealed carry permit. It does not matter how or where the sale is completed. Anyone believing the contrary is simply wrong. And a CC here is linked to your drivers license, so there you have it.
 
Ok, you are correct about NC. I was not accounting for your (somewhat unique) location.

Again, though, you are not required to authenticate it. It isn't on your shoulders to spot a fake, is it?

Like I said, if you feel that it IS on you to do so, maybe sticking to FFL dealers is your best bet.

Many folks doing "F-to-F" transfers are looking to avoid the extra record-keeping and cost of selling through a federally-licensed dealer.
 
The problem is sometimes the law can be gray. Face to face transactions are legal here, and the law doesn't say anything specific about record keeping, ID's or anything. However the sale can be deemed illegal if the seller could have been reasonably expected to know that they were selling to someone not legally qualified to purchase the gun. But what is reasonable? In reality, it's frequently whatever a prosecutor and a jury say it is. If a prosecutor feels you should have known, or didn't take adequate precautions, and he can convince a jury of it, you go to jail. Period. Just not a headache I want to deal with. Most dealers around here will transfer a gun for $15-$25. Saving that amount of money isn't worth the risk of landing in a cell with a guy named "Bubba" who thinks I'm cute.
 
the count said:
Sorry to tell you but you do not know the laws here in NC. A handgun buyer HAS TO HAVE a pistol permit or a concealed carry permit. It does not matter how or where the sale is completed. Anyone believing the contrary is simply wrong. And a CC here is linked to your drivers license, so there you have it.

Yes, a buyer in NC must have a Pistol Purchase Permit or a Concealed Handgun License. But there is no requirement in NC law (AG/DOJ handbook, statute) about the seller establishing the buyer's identity. While I think it is prudent to identify the buyer, there is no legal requirement beyond obtaining a permit (and many in NC would argue that it only needs to be seen) or seeing a CHL.

The law (14-408.1(c)) does provide criminal penalties for a buyer who provides false information to deceive a seller.
 
But what is reasonable? In reality, it's frequently whatever a prosecutor and a jury say it is. If a prosecutor feels you should have known, or didn't take adequate precautions, and he can convince a jury of it, you go to jail. Period.
Do you know of any cases where this happened to someone who wasn't clearly in collusion with a felon or other prohibited person trying to buy a gun?

I agree it sounds scary, but I'm not familiar with it actually happening very often.
 
n.c. statues..............

14‑408.1. Solicit unlawful purchase of firearm; unlawful to provide materially false information regarding legality of firearm or ammunition transfer.

(a) The following definitions apply in this section:

(1) Ammunition. – Any cartridge, shell, or projectile designed for use in a firearm.

(2) Firearm. – A handgun, shotgun, or rifle which expels a projectile by action of an explosion.

(3) Handgun. – A pistol, revolver, or other gun that has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

(4) Licensed dealer. – A person who is licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 923 to engage in the business of dealing in firearms.

(5) Materially false information. – Information that portrays an illegal transaction as legal or a legal transaction as illegal.

(6) Private seller. – A person who sells or offers for sale any firearm, as defined in G.S. 14‑409.39, or ammunition.

(b) Any person who knowingly solicits, persuades, encourages, or entices a licensed dealer or private seller of firearms or ammunition to transfer a firearm or ammunition under circumstances that the person knows would violate the laws of this State or the United States is guilty of a Class F felony.

(c) Any person who provides to a licensed dealer or private seller of firearms or ammunition information that the person knows to be materially false information with the intent to deceive the dealer or seller about the legality of a transfer of a firearm or ammunition is guilty of a Class F felony.

(d) Any person who willfully procures another to engage in conduct prohibited by this section shall be held accountable as a principal.

(e) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity or to a person acting at the direction of the law enforcement officer. (2011‑268, s. 11.)
 
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Good question, but who's to say that a buyer who keeps a permit wouldn't illegally use it again? It is sometimes difficult to protect both buyer and seller.

Every time I've purchased a handgun in NC in addition to providing a purchase permit I've also been required to provide picture I.D.
 
A pistol permit (here in NC) is a one time permit to buy a handgun. So the seller hands it over to the buyer. Make sure its not a photo copy. I don't understand how many here insist that selling a gun should be without any ID or record. Who here would sell their car to a stranger without a bill of sale and writing down the other's DL info? It is not fun when the cops knock on your door when your car was in used in a crime or just in an accident and you are still the owner on record.
 
I don't understand how many here insist that selling a gun should be without any ID or record.
Many (perhaps even MOST) do not feel that the federally-imposed record-keeping and licensed dealer system (thanks to GCA-'68) is Constitutional or just. That what one does with one's private property is solely at the discretion of the owner, with no need for any other entity's (especially a government agency's) involvement.

While we have no real choice about buying NEW guns, or buying guns from residents of other states (which must go through an FFL) we -- in most places -- DO have the choice to buy, sell, and trade used firearms (at least with residents of our own state) without reporting to "the man" or asking anyone's permission.

For those freedom-loving types, buying and selling firearms without creating "paper trails" is a very cherished thing. Some completely law-abiding people who've posted here before will NOT participate in a private party sale if there are ANY restrictions or demands placed on that sale beyond, "Here's your money -- Here's your gun -- Have a nice day."

Who here would sell their car to a stranger without a bill of sale and writing down the other's DL info?
A lot of red tape surrounds a car sale. Title (there is no certificate of title for a gun), state registration (most places don't have that for guns), insurance (no one has that to operate a gun), tags (ditto), and so forth. All of these things can cause you annoying headaches if you transfer a motor vehicle without getting all your paper ducks in a row. It is HIGHLY important to many firearms owners that guns don't now -- and NEVER do -- get saddled with that kind of red tape baggage.

It is not fun when the cops knock on your door when your car was in used in a crime or just in an accident and you are still the owner on record.
No fun? Really don't see this old saw as any kind of a worry. No one can be convicted of a crime simply because they once owned an object. If you DIDN'T commit the crime, and weren't even present in the area where it was committed, all the cops can do is ask a question or two and then bid you adieu.

IF a gun you sold (lawfully) later turns up at a crime scene, here's what can happen:
1) The police can contact the manufacturer and ask when, and to what dealer, that gun with that serial number was shipped.
2) They can contact that dealer and ask him to dredge up his paper 4473 records of who he sold that gun to. If the initial sale was prior to 1968, there were no records and the trail goes cold right there.
3) If the initial sale was over 20 years ago, he may lawfully have disposed of those records and the trail goes cold right there.
4) If he does have a record of initial sale, the police can contact the individual who first purchased that gun. If that person has moved out of state and/or cannot be located, the trail goes cold right there.
5) If the initial purchaser can be found, they can ask if he still owns the gun. If not, who did he sell it to? If he does not remember or never asked for the buyer's name, the trail goes cold right there.
6) If he does know who he sold it to, they can try to find that person. If they cannot locate the second buyer by the name the initial purchaser gives, the trail goes cold right there.
7) If they can find that buyer, they can ask if he still owns it, or if he knows who he sold it to. If he does not have a name for them, the trail goes cold right there.
...and so on down the line.

Notice a recurring theme there?

And, again, even if they 'trace' the gun and it leads all the way down the path to you, all you have to do is say, "I sold it to Jim Bob..." or "I didn't get a name..." and that's IT. Unless they have some evidence that you actually perpetrated the crime they're investigating you are at no risk at all.
 
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the count said:
I don't understand how many here insist that selling a gun should be without any ID or record. Who here would sell their car to a stranger without a bill of sale and writing down the other's DL info?

I've bought and sold several guns face to face. Never have written down anybody's driver's license information and you aren't writing mine down either. You can see it to check my state of residency if you want to, but you, nor any other stranger is writing down the info on it.

I've always signed a simple bill of sale with the other party, a receipt for the money and a receipt for the gun. Then about a week after the gun sale I always manage to lose the bill of sale, whether I was the purchaser or the seller.

In a state like Washington there is simply nothing the state can do to you for selling a firearm to another state resident unless they can prove that you KNEW or HAD REASONABLE suspicion that the person was prohibited. Like you meet near the border to Idaho and the buyer has Idaho license plates on their car. THAT would be reasonable suspicion they were an Idaho resident. Or, like in the Bloomberg stings, the buyer says, "I'm sure glad you've got one of these because I can't buy them from a store!" Not checking ID and not doing a background check is no probable cause for knowing or reasonable suspicion they were prohibited, because the law does not require checking ID or background checks (yet).

Each person has their own decision to make, and each person can abide by their own limits. My limit is I will sign your receipt and you can print my name. You can get my address and phone number out of the phone book, you can write down the license plate number of the car I drove up in. Copy down my driver's license info or CPL info...no way....you are nothing more than a stranger off the street to me.
 
I was selling a shotgun FTF in Fl. (I live here) to somebody at a gunshow. The buyer asked if they could right down all of my DL info. I asked why the felt the need for it. They replied "if it turns up stolen, we can come back to you". I asked if I could copy down all of their info. They asked me why and I replied, "well if that shotgun turns up at a crime scene I want your info so I can send to police to you."

They declined to provide the info and so did I. I have nothing to hide, but I have had my ID stolen twice. Nobody gets my DL# or my SS#, and the last thing I'm gonna do is give someone my address so they can locate more firearms.

It's kinda funny to me that they want my info and expect it, but refuse to give theirs.

I will ask "are you a Florida resident?" If they answer yes, I ask if they are a felon. They always say "no". I take the money and go on my way.
 
It's kinda funny to me that they want my info and expect it, but refuse to give theirs.
Thats why the only way I do a face to face is at a gun shop where the store does the transfer. The burden of proving legitimacy is then the store's problem not mine. Whenever a buyer declines to go this route I tell him too bad.
 
Thats why the only way I do a face to face is at a gun shop where the store does the transfer.
Yup! And if that's the only way you can feel comfortable about the sale, then be glad that the dealers exist and are happy to take your money. There are enough folks around who don't mind the extra hoops and hassles that you'll usually be able to find a buyer or seller willing to dance to the government's tune.

I don't understand how many here insist that selling a gun should be without any ID or record.
At least now you should understand. Probably can't change your mind, but happy to provide the info you seek! :)
 
n c law

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14‑408.1. Solicit unlawful purchase of firearm; unlawful to provide materially false information regarding legality of firearm or ammunition transfer.

(a) The following definitions apply in this section:

(1) Ammunition. – Any cartridge, shell, or projectile designed for use in a firearm.

(2) Firearm. – A handgun, shotgun, or rifle which expels a projectile by action of an explosion.

(3) Handgun. – A pistol, revolver, or other gun that has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

(4) Licensed dealer. – A person who is licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 923 to engage in the business of dealing in firearms.

(5) Materially false information. – Information that portrays an illegal transaction as legal or a legal transaction as illegal.

(6) Private seller. – A person who sells or offers for sale any firearm, as defined in G.S. 14‑409.39, or ammunition.

(b) Any person who knowingly solicits, persuades, encourages, or entices a licensed dealer or private seller of firearms or ammunition to transfer a firearm or ammunition under circumstances that the person knows would violate the laws of this State or the United States is guilty of a Class F felony.

(c) Any person who provides to a licensed dealer or private seller of firearms or ammunition information that the person knows to be materially false information with the intent to deceive the dealer or seller about the legality of a transfer of a firearm or ammunition is guilty of a Class F felony.

(d) Any person who willfully procures another to engage in conduct prohibited by this section shall be held accountable as a principal.

(e) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity or to a person acting at the direction of the law enforcement officer. (2011‑268, s. 11.)
 
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