CCW Blackpowder pistol?

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lefteyedom

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Because of loophole in some local gun laws a black powered pistol would not be classified as a firearm. Based solely on this loophole what would be a good or very good black powder pistol to choose to carry?
(For the record I do have a CCW:evil:)
 
I have never heard of black powder guns not being classified as firearms. They are classified as antique or replica firearms and are thus subject to different laws, but they are still firearms.

I would assume, however that it's still fine to carry as long as you have a CCW. Since you said blackpowder, not cap and ball, a Colt SAA would work nicely. Or a LeMat :D
 
Because of loophole in some local gun laws a black powered pistol would not be classified as a firearm. Based solely on this loophole what would be a good or very good black powder pistol to choose to carry?
(For the record I do have a CCW)
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This makes no sense. If one has a CCW, or CPL, why would one need or care about a 'loophole' in a local law?
 
Blackpowder firearms are not classified as firearms strictly for sale purposes in Federal law, which is why you may mail order them, in free states. I have yet to see any state law that doesn't classify them as firearms. If you load up an 1858 Remington Sheriff model and slap it in a Tombstone Doc Holiday shoulder holster under your duster, without a permit, I imagine that Johnny Law will have some interesting words for you if you are caught, probably some will include the phrase..."You are under arrest"...
Unless you live in Vermont or Alaska, of course.
Also, prohibited possessors also may not possess black powder firearms, either. I heard THAT old saw about every six months, figure I'll get it out of the way now.
 
OK folks let me ask it this way. What currently made "cap and ball" blackpowder pistol would be able to full fill the role of a CCW pistol?

Gentleman, I granted you the silliness of the legal grounds of my question.

The Question was not about the wisdom of someone trying to use the legal argument.

The question was directed to wards weaponry not the law.

I have paid enough legal bills to know how fickle the "letter of the law" can be.
 
<<"What currently made "cap and ball" blackpowder pistol would be able to full fill the role of a CCW pistol?">>

If you're serious about CCW, there are many, many better choices than a Cap and Ball revolver. But if you are hell bent on carrying one, the Colt 1862 Pocket Police or 1862 Pocket Navy, both in .36 caliber, were made for pocket or concealed carry by Sam Colt himself, and also the Colt 1849 Pocket Pistol in .31 caliber. All are 5 shot cap and ball revolvers. The 1849 is the smallest with a 4" barrel, the 1862's more commonly have a 5 1/2" barrel. The frames are the same size on all three. Be careful with the Italian copies as they sometimes call them a pocket model but in fact some are just 1851 Navy's with a shorter barrel.The frames on the Colt Pocket Models are quite a bit smaller than the other Colt models. The 2nd and 3rd Generation Colts are still fairly inexpensive if you watch GunBroker or AuctionArms. A NIB 2nd Generation Colt 1862 Pocket Police, unfired with box and papers just went 3 days ago for $399. I considered buying it except I already have one. Anyway good luck on whatever you decide.
 
Based solely on this loophole
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Unfortunately, there is no loophole. I've actually researched that some, just in case of the unfortunate event that a search for a job may take me outside of the USA, and all the anti-CCW states have laws which state that a BP arm is a "firearm" for the purpose of concealed carry.
 
This is my 2 cents on this.

If you have a CCW & stay within the law of your licence, why would you carry a C&B revolver for self defence concealed when you obviously would have access to a more modern & possibly more reliable firearm?

Now granted some one like me who have used these types of firearms for over 30 years & learned a thing or two in making them as reliable as humanly possible, & they are quite potent within resonable ranges but to defend one self with this type of weapon against 2 legged possibly drug crazzed critters unless there is no other weapon available to you is kinda crazy.
I'll take one of my C&B revolvers out onto the club property to check traps & what not & if I had to use it I know it'll go BOOM 5 times but mostly it's a 4 legged creature I would have to use it on.

Now if you want a good C&B Revolver to cary Concealed, the ones mentioned earlier, "Colt 1862 Pocket Police or 1862 Pocket Navy, both in .36 caliber" are fine choices & possibly a copy of the Remington 1863 Pocket in .31 caliber but if you want something with a little more punch then the Pietta or Uberti 1858 Remington NMA with the 5.5" barrel would be my choice but again that'd be your choice & I would suggest looking into my posting Keeping a Cap & Ball Revolver loaded. for some info on keeping any of these fine revolvers as reliable as possible.
 
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The 1862 Pocket Colts have the best combination of small frame size and larger (.36) caliber. The .31 cal Colts and Remingtons are not bad but the smaller caliber makes them less desirable. I also like the first gun mentioned, the short barrel Remington in .44, but the large frame is a problem.

Having answered the question with my opinion, I'll also add that none of the above can compare with my S&W Model 60 .357 Magnum for self defense. It's a fool's game.
 
Here's a tangent:

I do NOT CCW, but I do have a hypothetical question:

There's a Bersa .380 and a 1861 Navy in the home. My groups at 12 yards with the .380 are very wide, even though I practice with it every weekend. But the groups with the BP are very very accurate by comparison.

You hear bump in the night, which one do you go check it out with?

PS: I'd go with the Bersa, due to simple rate of fire and lack of smoke. Also, another family member in the home has a .45, so not much to worry about.
 
Tomahawk674 said:
Here's a tangent:

I do NOT CCW, but I do have a hypothetical question:

There's a Bersa .380 and a 1861 Navy in the home. My groups at 12 yards with the .380 are very wide, even though I practice with it every weekend. But the groups with the BP are very very accurate by comparison.

You hear bump in the night, which one do you go check it out with?

PS: I'd go with the Bersa, due to simple rate of fire and lack of smoke. Also, another family member in the home has a .45, so not much to worry about.
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Well me, I have 2 .45ACP's a .22WMR & 4 .44 cal. C&B Revolvers "2 of which may be loaded at the moment" & I practice with each enough to know that I &/or my wife could hit what we were aiming at so to me it would be which piece was the quickest to come to bear.

Not to say that I would only use my .45 but I feel confident in my shooting & what my .44 C&B's can do to get the job done if it ever come to that.
 
I have actually carried a c&b before, just for the heck of it. I wouldn't make it a habit. A shoulder rig well carry most. I have a baby Colt that is a great pocket revolver.
baby1.jpg
 
I am not trying to be a prick, but there is NO cap and ball gun worthy of carry as in ccw today.. NONE. CCW and BP isn't a home defence weapon choice, and no one who can own a gun in the home needs a ccw permit period.

So if some mug who deserves to be shot and stopped in your home, I suppose use what ever suits you so long as a jury won't consider it cruel and unusal, which any sheeple jury is probably going to convict anyone foolish enough to use a BP pistol, because there is no doubt the jury will find the weapon IS cruel and unusal.

As a carry gun, this thinking is totally of the wall. First off that jury will have the same findings as above, and if your life is really at threat, then you are way under gunned.

You can only safely carry 5 rounds with the hammer down on an empty, and the bad guy is going to be using a semi auto gun.

My head would be Is it going to go bang if I need it too. Did a cap just fall off? Did that bead of sweat get on the caps? Is the grease leaking on my shirt? Can anyone see tha stain? Do they know I am a fool packing a BP heater? Is belly button lint going to jam the action. Oh crap it's raining so I can't go out. Oh crap I just got a flat in the rain. Oh crap I just put the gun on the seat and the nice police man is giving me a queer look.

Oh this is bad the nice policeman just shot himself in the act of confiscating my gun because he didn't know a thing about it!

If you live in New York City and pull this stunt, it is illegal to be in possesion of the weapon and have on hand powder and ball....

About the only thing you can do with a cp and ball pistol unde terms of selfdefence is shoot some alley cat and even then the jury will convict you of cruelty.
 
One more time for the record......

This was a question about weaponry... not law////

I carry for the record a Frankenstein 45acp. Essex frame, Remington Rand slide, all parts are Wilson, McCormick. It is a big full size weapon than is easy to shoot under stress.
I would carry more if the Job I had did not take me across three states every day. MY CCW is only good in ONE, Wyoming. Then there is the whole CDL HAZMAT firearm issue.

SO MY PERSONAL CCW is a Roofing Hammer that I use as a tire thumper and 5th wheel puller. It rides on the floor of my cab next to my left foot 6 days a week.

Thanks for the idea on the 1862 Pocket Colts
 
I once saw a 5" barrel Colt 1860 which had been modified by the additon of a birdshead grip from a SAA. Made for a pretty compact package compared to a full sized 1860. It also looked pretty danged cool! I wouldn't feel defenseless carrying something like that; although, of course, it wouldn't be my first choice.


Just remember: once you load it, it's legally considered a firearm. If it's charged with powder and ball but not capped, it's not considered loaded (I believe). So, you could keep it "loaded," but not capped and still, theoretically be legal.
 
Macmac said:
I am not trying to be a prick, but there is NO cap and ball gun worthy of carry as in ccw today.. NONE. CCW and BP isn't a home defence weapon choice, and no one who can own a gun in the home needs a ccw permit period.

So if some mug who deserves to be shot and stopped in your home, I suppose use what ever suits you so long as a jury won't consider it cruel and unusal, which any sheeple jury is probably going to convict anyone foolish enough to use a BP pistol, because there is no doubt the jury will find the weapon IS cruel and unusal.
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You're right & I agree that if you can get a CCW you should be using a more modern weapon, but I dissagree with you in the HD scenerio.
You can shoot a BG in your house with even a single barrel shotgun but if you by chance replaced the shell in that shotgun you can be tried guilty of premeditation.
You can shoot a BG in your house with a .45ACP but can be tried guilty of Murder in certain situations.

Macmac said:
As a carry gun, this thinking is totally of the wall. First off that jury will have the same findings as above, and if your life is really at threat, then you are way under gunned.

You can only safely carry 5 rounds with the hammer down on an empty, and the bad guy is going to be using a semi auto gun.
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Very true but the same can be said to a person that has a modern firearm too.

Under gunned?
If you are referring to just 5 shots, then I guess you are right conciddering that most modern .357 Magnum revolvers are only 6 shots or even my M1911A1 .45ACP has 7 shots compared to maybe a Glock 9mm capable of 17 shots, then you have it there...
Power wise, maybe, a .44 caliber C&B Revolver can be loaded to a punch that would rival .38 Spcecials & possibly close to a .45ACP..
Sights, deffinitly.

Macmac said:
My head would be Is it going to go bang if I need it too. Did a cap just fall off? Did that bead of sweat get on the caps? Is the grease leaking on my shirt? Can anyone see tha stain? Do they know I am a fool packing a BP heater? Is belly button lint going to jam the action. Oh crap it's raining so I can't go out. Oh crap I just got a flat in the rain. Oh crap I just put the gun on the seat and the nice police man is giving me a queer look.

Oh this is bad the nice policeman just shot himself in the act of confiscating my gun because he didn't know a thing about it!
Click to expand...

You may have something there but if loaded properly a C&B revolver can be just as reliable as any modern center fire handgun & I have had factory ammo that did not fire even after a second hit on the primer.

As far as a police officer shooting him/her self while confiscating your firearm, then that would a officer that need some basic training about muzzle control.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but in seeing your post made me think of some situations that you pointed out that went bad for the defender when they used a firearm to defend themselves, & the comment about reliability, I've been able to keep my C&B revolvers loaded for up to a year & even had one in the rain yet it still fired reliably & accurately but like I said, I agree if you have a CCW or just a firearm in the home then you should be using a modern firearm but these C&B revolvers can be reliade apaun as an alternative weapon.
 
As far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with having a C&B revolver for home defense of having one in the truck. It will do the job intended, although the cleanup might be a pain afterwards.

If you will only have it in the truck why not consider a .44 Remington with a conversion cylinder? You can have a revolver unloaded and a loaded .45 cylinder separate. Neither is a firearm so you should be fine going across state lines. Should a need arise you can quickly switch the cylinders and be ready for action. At that point the weapon might not be legal without a permit, but if you have to draw I doubt the legality will matter more than your life.

Just my opinion on the legal issues. I think I'm right, though.
 
I do believe that in michigan, once a black powder weapon is loaded, it is legally considered a gun.

Regardless, in this state black powder pistols are still subject to the CCW laws.
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0 said:
2. I have a replica of an antique pistol. Is it necessary that this pistol be registered in Michigan? Is it necessary that I obtain a Michigan Concealed Pistols License?

MCL 28.429 No, antique pistols made before 1898 and replicas of antiques that use black powder, matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system do not need to be registered. The pistol is still subject to all concealed pistol licensing laws.
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Just a cautionary note for anyone w/out a CCW who may be considering this.

Also, in Wyoming, I think a cap and ball handgun would be considered a gun if you have the conversion cylinder because of this statute.
http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2007/Bills/SF0179.pdf said:
(iii) A muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading
2 shotgun or muzzle loading pistol which is designed to use
3 black powder, or a black powder substitute, if it cannot
4 use fixed ammunition. Notwithstanding any provision of
5 this paragraph, any weapon which incorporates a firearm
6 frame or receiver which can be readily converted to fire
7 fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock
8 or any combination thereof is within the meaning of
9 "firearm" as used in this section.
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I've shot thousands of rounds in my cap-n-ball pistols, colt, remington, ect. if I had to stake my life on a cnb gun it would be the ruger old army. I've shot cowboy action meets with 12 stages and ran the gun as fast as I can (draw, fire and hit 10 shots in under 5 sec's) the rugers never fail to go. I run a heafty load (40 grains). the absolut must is to use remington primers on no matter what pistol type. cci, swiss and the others just are't reliable. colt replicas have the best point and shoot but bad habit of geting a cap inside and jaming, remmy work good for a few shots but foul out fast and the front sight is east to get hung up on holsters. Ruger old army with the short barrel and many of the black hawk grips ect will work. don't forget these are going to be single action, which isn't a 1st choise even with smokeless revolvers
 
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