CCW Blackpowder pistol?

[jad0110]

PRM,

Those are some great looking Colts! I don't own any C&B BP guns, probably never will. I just love and appreciate guns of all types. I think if you can shoot really well, why not carry it? That being said, I know a couple of guys who carry 1873 SAA replicas, one of whom packs a small auto as a BUG for extra insurance. Both are scary accurate with their 1873s, I pitty the thug who would pick a fight with either of those guys.

 

[PRM]

I also have a 3rd Generation Colt SAA in .45 LC/.45 ACP, and a custom built Colt Bisley in .44 Special that also see their share of carry. All comes down to practice and what you're comfortable with.

 

[7.62X25mm]

You need to check your loophole. Just because it's not a legal firearm doesn't mean it won't be a legal 'concealed weapon'.

Also, just because it's not a "modern firearm" doesn't mean it's not a "firearm."

For purposes of state law locally, even a BB or pellet gun is considered a "concealed weapon."

"Any arm which propels a projectile by means of a spring, compressed air, or propellent gases."

"Blackpowder CCW" -- I'd opt for SAA Colt in 45 Colt caliber, a metallic cartridge loaded with black powder.

 

[PRM]

Even that will vary from place to place and sometimes is not clear. Back in the late 70s early 80s (in a time prior to carry permits), the Tennessee statute had verbiage stating that a person could not carry a weapon with the intent to be armed, but had an exception for the Army or Navy pistol which could be carried openly in the hand. Talk about confusing!!!

Even where the law is vague, it could cost you a lot of time, money, and trouble just to prove a point. I would have a permit if I wanted to carry it.

 

[Mike 56]

What about the Lemat it is a revolver and a shotgun? These would get my vote.



I am thinking about making one out of a 44cal 51 Colt.

Mike

 

[grimjaw]

Mike 56, what in the heck are those things?

jm

 

[StrawHat]

grimjaw Mike 56, what in the heck are those things?

Mike will correct me if I am wrong but they appear to be brass framed 1860s with a modification done to the grip strap to make them more rounded.

Somewhere I found a web site that had a couple of originals pictured that were so modified in the 19th century.

(Before anyone points it out, the originals were iron framed as there were no brass framed 1860s)

 

[Jim K]

Better read the federal law again, folks. It doesn't say an antique firearm or replica is not a firearm. It defines firearm to include antiques and non-cartridge guns, then defines antique firearms and makes SOME exemptions for them. Nowhere does it says an antique gun is not a firearm.

Jim

 

[CabofDoom]

Better read the federal law again, folks. It doesn't say an antique firearm or replica is not a firearm. It defines firearm to include antiques and non-cartridge guns, then defines antique firearms and makes SOME exemptions for them. Nowhere does it says an antique gun is not a firearm

Actually, I beg to differ with your statement. the following was copied from the DOJ website. the link will take you to the document in its entirety

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ut/psn/documents/guncard.pdf

DEFINITION OF “FIREARM”:
Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will expel a projectile by means of an explosive or is designed or may be readily converted to do so. This includes the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any firearm muffler or silencer or any destructive device. A “destructive device” includes any explosive, incendiary or poison gas --- (i)bomb; (ii) grenade or (iii) similar device, or any combination of parts designed or intended to be
converted into a destructive device, or from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. Does not include black powder or antique type firearms. 18 USC §921(3).3

Not trying ti pee in anyones cheerios, but the belief that "prohibited persons"
can not own even blackpowder weapons under federal law is also eronious. A member of my family was subject to an ATF raid and when the dust settled, the ATF purposly left behind 3 muzzleloading rifles and 2 C&B revolvers with the lead agent's admonishon to his minions that they had no right to take those

COD

 

[Vermonter]

When it comes to federal law, it's not the blackpowder that's the dividing line, it's the type of ignition. A gun that shoots blackpowder cartridges would still be considered a firearm.

 

[pohill]

I always understood that an antique was, basically, a gun that fired unconventional ammo. You can buy an 1858 Remington NMA (for example) and shoot black powder with cap and balls and it's not a firearm, but once you convert that gun to cartridge, it's a firearm. In regards to conventional ammo - the store in Maine where I buy my guns had an antique handgun that fired antique cartridge ammo (I can't remember what it was but it was certainly un-conventional, un-modern ammo) but they would not sell me that gun because they had a good supply of that unconventional ammo in the store. The supply made it conventional.
Also, I shipped a Colt repro through UPS recently and the store said they had to get an OK from the home office before they could ship it. The home office called back and said as long as it's pre-1879 (not 1899) it was OK. They've moved the date of the gun back to exclude as many cartridge firing guns as possible.
In MA, you can buy (or receive through the mail) an antique gun but you need a Firearms ID card to buy the powder (yeah, I know, MA is tough but you wanna see where the rest of the country is heading? Check MA laws. But the good news is that in MA you can legally marry your favorite sheep, or anyone else for that matter).
And keep in mind, even if you do have an antique gun in every sense of the definition, once you conceal it, you might be concealing a dangerous weapon (in your state).

 

[cold_surfer]

Loaded BP is a firearm in Florida

Might be OK in WY but in FL a loaded black powder arm is considered a firearm the same as a modern. I'd believe it if WY hadn't fought the legal battle out -- but be careful out of state since they might site the FL definition as common practice.

IE. a convicted felon is in violation of the law with a loaded black powder gun hunting in Florida -- it was decided in Daytona a few years ago. What blows me away is the selective enforcement and widely varying interpretation of gun laws in the US. It sucks, unless you are in a place like WY... FL is better than the northern yankee states like MA, NY, NJ, etc.. but those same states are coming down here trying to get us to change our laws because of problems up there.

Over-riding problem is one of SLAM-FIRE. I would never CCW a weapon prone to slam firing when dropped.

The good news is that you are still legally allowed to build your own BP handgun in most places and maybe you could invent a better way.. Good luck. I would only run it with 777 or the more stable powders.

 

[trickshot]

Over-riding problem is one of SLAM-FIRE. I would never CCW a weapon prone to slam firing when dropped.

The good news is that you are still legally allowed to build your own BP handgun in most places and maybe you could invent a better way.. Good luck. I would only run it with 777 or the more stable powders.

cold_surfer, I wish to comment on a couple things you wrote.

slam-fire? Just like with the Colt SAA cartridge revolver, it is a normal practice to carry it with the hammer on an empty chamber, and then a cap & ball revolver can't go off if dropped.

What do you mean by "stable"? Black powder is more reliable than 777 or any other black powder substitute, especially if the loaded gun is stored for a long period of time.

 

[arcticap]

What do you mean by "stable"? Black powder is more reliable than 777 or any other black powder substitute, especially if the loaded gun is stored for a long period of time.

I recently fired off a revolver that was bought from a friend and previously loaded with 28 grains of BP and topped off with Cream of Wheat and a thin layer of Bore Butter. The Bore Butter had turned brownish due to age.
The rounds were so anemic that I couldn't believe that it was loaded with 28 grains of powder. I asked the seller afterward how long ago he loaded it and to confirm the volume of powder which he did, saying that it was about 2 years old.
Maybe the Bore Butter or the Cream of Wheat transferred some moisture to the powder or something. Two chambers needed to be recapped with RWS 1075 caps before they would fire but the nipples appeared to be clear. But there was some light roughness in the chambers from oxidation that I noticed afterward when cleaning it.
Granted that this is all based on circumstantial hearsay, but the relevant point is that no powder is immune to spoilage. Even if it was loaded 5 years ago, who can say that if it was loaded with Pyrodex P whether or not the powder would have also spoiled?
The lesson is that an unspoiled load of substitute powder is better than a spoiled load of BP. Black Powder is easier to ignite, but I don't know about how to measure the stability of powders once they are stored loaded over a wide variety of environmental conditions and in contact with various lubricants and fillers.

 

[trickshot]

Black powder does not spoil. Except in unusual circumstances. There are many documented cases of loaded muzzleloader guns sitting for decades and still shooting as good as a freshly loaded gun.

 

[peacemaker45]

To be properly armed, you'd want to be carrying 3 Walker Colts. I'd recommend two in a double shoulder rig, and one crossdraw. That would put you at just about even with a guy carrying a G17, in terms of round count, procectile weight and velocity.

Of course the caveat is he can reload with a mag change.




Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.

~~~Mat

 

[PRM]

That would put you at just about even with a guy carrying a G17, in terms of round count, procectile weight and velocity.

We are all aware on this forum of what is involved in reloading a C&B - but did someone just compare a 9mm cartridge (Glock 17) to a Walker .44???

 

[perldog007]

Because of loophole in some local gun laws a black powered pistol would not be classified as a firearm. Based solely on this loophole what would be a good or very good black powder pistol to choose to carry?
(For the record I do have a CCW)

Knew a fairly serious fellow whose choice, under that idiom when no ccw permits were available was a .22 companion in a neck holster. His constant comment was 'you have to be sober"... I'm prepared to accept his estimate

 

[4v50 Gary]

A black powder firearm would not be my first choice for CCW. There's a reason why smokeless and centerfire replaced muzzle loaders. Now, if this were 1757, I'd gladly take a 5 1/2' barrel Ruger Old Army over a single shot pistol.

 

[perldog007]

Here's a tangent:

I do NOT CCW, but I do have a hypothetical question:

There's a Bersa .380 and a 1861 Navy in the home. My groups at 12 yards with the .380 are very wide, even though I practice with it every weekend. But the groups with the BP are very very accurate by comparison.

You hear bump in the night, which one do you go check it out with?

PS: I'd go with the Bersa, due to simple rate of fire and lack of smoke. Also, another family member in the home has a .45, so not much to worry about.

Mea maxima culpa, I'm the idiot in this village. Since I got into shooting BP replicas my last two cartridge guns have not been missed. A pair of beauties envied by many 'in the trade'. So I don't go out and look for trouble anymore. That's number one.
Never scored more than 290 out of 300 with any pistol. Only scored more than that with revolvers when I worked as a guard. But I love a good pistol. Even qualified with and carried a Ballister Molina in the late 20th century. Glock 40, Springfield XD in .45.. They just don't appeal to me as much as the reproductions do.
I won't likely part with my Mossy until I finish saving up for and acquire a Pedersoli double 20 gauge percussion. Maybe not even then. If there is a muzzle loader that could replace my 1894 pattern 30/30 Marlin I haven't seen it yet.
But in handguns? I like wheelguns and that 1858 design is good to me. If my 1851 was charged and handy no worries. It's a tack driver and I'd love to see what a really good shot could do with one. I am not up to speed on Bersa, not sure I've even fired a .380.. For terminal performance the 1851 loaded as Keith describes in "Sixguns" would be difficult to surpass with any .acp load. On humans anyway. For some game I'd opt for a 1911 over a Navy but not a .380..

 

[Panzerschwein]

A pocket police .36 is what I'd carry. Good little stoppers.

 

[Thompsongunner]

Well, what ever pistol you choose I would definitely send it to Mike at Goons Gunworks and get it slicked up! You certainly don't want it choking on a cap after the 1st. shot.

 

[lagerratrobe]

Boy, do the heated opinions start coming out when the topic of personal defense with BP comes up. Well, that and BP substitutes. Anyhow, coming back to the original question, what would I carry concealed, if it had to be a cap and ball gun? For me, it would have to meet the following criteria:

1. small enough to carry relatively easily in my bag or glove box, possibly in a coat pocket
2. powerful enough to slow down a dog or person
3. able to be safely carried
4. sturdy and well made

To me, that means:

• a barrel no longer than 4"
• preferably at least .36 caliber
• functional safety notches on the cylinder
• something with a topstrap

Two guns come to mind that generally meet these criteria. The 1863 Pocket Remington meets almost all of those requirements, except for caliber, which is only .31 (matches .32 S&W). It's an amazingly small gun though, only 7 inches long overall. If size were the deciding factor, I'd probably go with it. The alternative that I would consider is a modified Spiller and Burr with the rammer removed and the barrel cut back to 4". It would be relatively simple to modify the cylinder retaining system to function without a rammer and still allow easy removal of the cylinder for loading. You might be able to do the same thing with a Remington .36, but I don't think it would be as easy. I might actually consider doing this to my Spiller and Burr.

If I were going to do this, I'd replace my nipples with SliXshot ones from Badman Bullets. They only work with Remington #10 caps, but they are machined precisely so that caps fit perfectly. I'd also use real black powder and probably would use an un-lubricated felt or cardboard wad between the powder and ball, just to minimize the chance of powder getting contaminated.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Can someone please take a picture of one of those shortened revolvers against say, a 1911 for reference. Size, weight and concealability in carrying are important considerations.

 

[Panzerschwein]

It'll never be as reliable as a centerfire gun or even most rimfire pistols. I don't care what ANYONE says regarding that.

But, they're powerful enough and more than accurate for defense. The single action only proposition isn't even that limiting of a factor, and 5-6 rounds will solve most problems even if the gun will be impossible to reload unless it's a cylinder swap in a Remington and even then. But, the reliability is by FAR the biggest limiting factor. If you are anyone else reading this thread really wants to carry a cap and ball revolver for defense, take your time and make sure your gun is at least reliable enough for you to trust it. I have never seen a cap and ball revolver that is reliable enough for defense against anything. That's what Makarov PMs are for.