CCW, cruise ships and piracy

[ctrs]

I've seen a couple of threads regarding the carrying of weapons on cruise ships. From what I've heard, most (if not all) cruise lines disallow weapons on board. I have a couple of questions:

1. Are they the policy of the cruise line, or is it due to legal reasons? I do know that maritime laws do not allow commercial ships to be armed. Does this apply only to ship-mounted weapons (i.e., no deck guns on cruise ships), or to personal weapons as well? If it's company policy, then are there any cruise lines that allow CC? Just curious.

2. There have been quite a few incidents in which pirates have tried to attack cruise ships. If passengers were allowed to CC, would this decrease the chances of pirate attacks?

3. Would an AOW (such as a gun that's disguised as something else) be practical on a cruise ship?

 

[ProShooter]

The last cruise I went on didn't even leave the US and they had metal detectors and scanners.

 

[sdlsaginaw]

I went on a couple of Princess cruises, security hassled me once for carrying more than one pocket knife. Ok, whatever.

Went on an NCL cruise, security got totally beligerant because I was carrying just one, a small Opinel. Said if it came out of the cabin again it would be confiscated. I complained at the desk, she didn't understand why I felt I needed to carry a pocket knife. Naturally, the next trip off the ship my dad bought batteries and we couldn't open the stupid package. I cancelled the next NCL cruise (told them I would because of their policy) and won't do business with them again.

BTW - even the steak knives on the NCL ship were junk, basically butter knives with a slightly pointed end.

 

[Dnaltrop]

I'm sure that it's just my jaded perspective... ( or family members getting Norovirus each they go out)

Should I win the Lottery, I'd be POSSIBLY willing to get a room on "The World"

http://www.aboardtheworld.com/

Beyond that, if it's not a Tall ship, the only reason i'm getting on a cruise ship is if we're evacuating the mainland USA.

Load the Deck guns!!!!! Haul that line !!!

 

[GRIZ22]

Okay in order:

1. All cruise ships that I know of are registered in another country (Bahamas and Liberia are popular). That makes them really a little part of that country. You will not find a cruise line that allows concealed carry. All the rules are not only company policy but impact on export of firearms. If you could take a gun on a cruise ship, which you can't, you would be exporting it. Then what would you do with it when you were in the Bahamas or Mexico. Even if there weren't all these rules and laws the captain of the ship can make up his own.

The security issues with weapons on ships stem from the Achilles Lauro incident when terrorist just put AKs and grenades in their luggage, hijacked the ship, and killed a few people. They didn't check luggage in those days.

Try to bring a firearm on a cruise ship anywhere and you will be arrested and never legally own a gun again.

2. Pirates are an issue off the coast of Somalia and in SE Asia. They are not an issue anywhere else. Allowing passengers to CC on cruise ships to me is a silly idea. The Captain is responsible for anything that happens on his ship and will deal with pirates as he sees fit and is instructed to do so by the company. What are you going to do? Blast away at the pirates who are shooting automatic weapons and RPGs with your Kel Tec?

3. See my last sentence in #1, "Try to bring a firearm on a cruise ship anywhere and you will be arrested and never legally own a gun again."

I have brought swiss army knifes and small folders on cruise ships with no issues.

 

[ants]

Not being belligerant, just asking a question.

Try to bring a firearm on a cruise ship anywhere and you will be arrested and never legally own a gun again.

Just asking:
Who will arrest you? The Liberian police?

Certainly not US law enforcement, you haven't broken any US laws.

Since you haven't broken any US laws, how does that preclude you from ever owning a gun again?



I'm not trying to be a butthead, just asking questions out of curiosity.





(I bet a hot dog lunch (here in my home town of course) that only one or two members on this Forum actually know the correct answers to the OP questions. One suspects that cruise ship property is probably like any other private property while in port where you board -- if they ask you to take your gun and leave but you refuse, it becomes a trespassing issue).

 

[GRIZ22]

Who will arrest you? The Liberian police?

Certainly not US law enforcement, you haven't broken any US laws.

Since you haven't broken any US laws, how does that preclude you from ever owning a gun again?


Okay try it in NY, LA, or Miami.

 

[GRIZ22]

If you commit a crime on a foreign flag vessel while it is in US waters you are turned over to Federal or local authority.

 

[parsimonious_instead]

When the subject of my upcoming vacation came up, I told people it was my first cruise.
"Where is the ship stopping" they asked.
"It's making stops in Key West and Cozumel" I said.
"I might skip the shore excursion to Cozumel because they won't let me take my assault rifle onboard the ship." I added, usually getting an amused grin since they have no idea I own firearms.

I actually never got off the ship at all, but not because of safety concerns - I used the sudden quiet to get extra sleep in my cabin!

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Even if there weren't all these rules and laws the captain of the ship can make up his own.

They don't call them masters for nothing.

 

[GRIZ22]

One suspects that cruise ship property is probably like any other private property while in port where you board -- if they ask you to take your gun and leave but you refuse, it becomes a trespassing issue).

Cruise ship property is treated the same as airline security. The exact statute is probably in Title 49 of the US Code. There is also PL 107-295 aka the Maritime Transportaion Security Act.

If you are in the terminal bldg your "ask you to leave" is probably true in most cases. If you try to board the ship with a firearm you will be arrested.

 

[Average Joe]

If the ship is docked on US soil, they will call the local police, and you will have some explaining to do.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

You cannot bring any firearm on any U.S. seaport without violating the law. We had a "gate check" about 25 years ago and confiscated 176 firearms.

Things are so bad with the ILA that DHS and port authorities are having to make exceptions to allow convicted felons access to the port in order to load/unload ships.

 

[BP Hunter]

I honestly don't know why you would need to CCW in a ship anyway. I cruise very often, twice to three times a year. I don't feel naked without my CCW. I don't feel threatened whatsoever on a vacation cruise ship. Everybody is having a good time. The only upset people I see are parents shouting at their tired little toddlers who just want to take a nap.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

who is going to pirate a humungous cruise ship? LMAO

don't they have a capacity of like 10,000 people or something? are you planning on taking a cruise off the coast of Ethiopia?

you really don't know why a cruise ship company doesn't want armed patrons on board a crowded ship where alcohol is served?

 

[kingpin008]

who is going to pirate a humungous cruise ship? LMAO

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517955,00.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/cruises/3538744/Pirates-attack-cruise-ship-off-Somali-coast.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/piracy
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/05/national/main1015815.shtml

http://www.cruisebruise.com/Pirate_Attacks/Pirate_Attacks_Main_Menu.html

"Pirate attacks tripled between 1993 and 2003."

you really don't know why a cruise ship company doesn't want armed patrons on board a crowded ship where alcohol is served?

Numerous states already allow CCW holders to carry in locations where alcohol is served. How would this be any different?

 

[Danb1215]

who is going to pirate a humungous cruise ship? LMAO

don't they have a capacity of like 10,000 people or something? are you planning on taking a cruise off the coast of Ethiopia?

you really don't know why a cruise ship company doesn't want armed patrons on board a crowded ship where alcohol is served?

Few things to address: Attacks on cruise ships have happened. See Kingpin's post above.
Cruise ships don't generally carry "10,000" people. Ethiopia is landlocked. Carrying a gun where alcohol is present hasn't turned the numerous states that allow it into the metaphorical wild west.

All that said you have a much better chance of winning the lottery than being on a cruise ship that left a US port, and as an above poster mentioned a group planning to commandeer a ship with several thousand people aboard probably are going to be ridiculously well armed and wouldn't be thwarted by your average concealed carry piece.

If you're truly concerned about the threat of pirate attack, which is fine, your option is basically not to go on the cruise. However I'm betting it would have turned out fine.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

Few things to address: Attacks on cruise ships have happened. See Kingpin's post above.
Cruise ships don't generally carry "10,000" people. Ethiopia is landlocked. Carrying a gun where alcohol is present hasn't turned the numerous states that allow it into the metaphorical wild west.

another thing to address: those news stories are from the coast of africa and southern europe. (as i alluded to in my previous post)

i assume since the OP is asking about ccw'ing on a cruise ship, he's referring to cruises that embark from the US coast. last i heard, there haven't been any princes cruise liners hijacked by the pirates of the Caribbean

Numerous states already allow CCW holders to carry in locations where alcohol is served. How would this be any different?

it's called "liability". the cruise line would have to pay out to everyone hit by any bullet on their ship, not to mention the fact that the nearest hospital maybe hours away by helicopter.

if you owned a cruise ship, would you want people packin heat on it in the middle of the ocean, which could possibly end up in a situation that bankrupts you?



two things you must remember:

1. people are idiots. especially when grouped in huge numbers and served alcohol.

2. people sue for anything and everything.





also, last i heard, cargo ships and some cruise ships in off the coast of southern europe and africa were hiring isreali mercenaries for protection as adding weaponry to a non-military ship is illegal in certain waters.

 

[M-Cameron]

while pirates have attacked Cruise ships.....it is Exceedingly rare.....very often committed by inexperienced pirates......and nearly all of the time they are unsuccessful.


it just doesnt make sense to attack a cruise ship..

...because they have hundreds of people on board..........not only does that leave hundreds of witnesses....but they would all be nearly impossible to detain....and for what payoff......a few hundred purses, wallets, and cameras + what ever money was on board........a few hundred thousand....not much more than a million at the most.

why not jack that shipping freighter, small crew and large amounts of goods.......not to mention ransom for the captn' & crew.......multi-million dollar haul right there.



also.....the pirates have full auto weapons and RPGs............what exactly are you planning on doing with your 6 shots of .380....


and finally, the crew, or at the very least, the captn' are trained to deal with threats of piracy.......they know what they are doing....let them handle it.......you can only really make the situation worse by trying to get involved.



and then you have the legalities of what ever country you are in.......i sure as hell dont want to spend 30years in a somali prison because i took a pot shot at some pirates

 

[Johannes_Paulsen]

A cruise ship is just prison with a chance of drowning.

 

[parsimonious_instead]

1. people are idiots. especially when grouped in huge numbers and served alcohol.

2. people sue for anything and everything.

Since booze was expensive on the cruise I sailed on, the debarking for Cozumel was an opportunity for the drinkers to get soused at the cheap Mexican bars on and right near the long concrete pier.
Although the returning batch of people didn't seem all that rowdy, they were definitely behaving differently, and there was a noticeable uptick in the number of unarmed security officers patrolling the places where people were gathering.

 

[Ole Coot]

A cruise ship is just prison with a chance of drowning.

Getting that way. I have always enjoyed independence and that includes personal protection. I now refuse to put myself in a position where I have no control over my own safety. My 45 might not stack up against an AK but the last time I looked an AK in the eye I had something that worked. I doubt if the captain and crew are better than those on "Gilligan's Island" defense wise unless the pirates want a deck chair or a nice mixed drink. I like men and women I can depend on when it hits the fan and I don't fly now either but my odds on a plane with only a few people and no bomb to contend with are much better. Never lose your awareness, only takes one time.

 

[parsimonious_instead]

My 45 might not stack up against an AK but the last time I looked an AK in the eye I had something that worked. I doubt if the captain and crew are better than those on "Gilligan's Island" defense wise

In fairness, as I understand it, a fair number of cruise ship captains come from the ranks of various nations' naval forces, so some familiarity with weapons could at least be posited, if not assumed.

CCW on a cruise ship would be for personal defense, not counter-boarding action.

If there is trouble, the best thing would be to lock oneself in a cabin or hole up in a defensible place, and use that personal firearm against bad guys searching the ship looking to round them up.

A blog called "straightforward in a crooked world" talks about self-defense in non-permissive environments. With a wary eye toward the horrible Mumbai attacks, he discusses the use of improvised weapons to stun or disable attackers.

He gives an example of perhaps using a corridor fire hose - they have surprising knockdown power - to take a bad guy out of action long enough to seize their weapon. He also recommends immediately killing them with their own weapon. Who knows how justifiable such a thing is - legally, morally or otherwise - but he makes some good points about how to simply survive that sort of attack.

 

[M-Cameron]

Getting that way. I have always enjoyed independence and that includes personal protection. I now refuse to put myself in a position where I have no control over my own safety. My 45 might not stack up against an AK but the last time I looked an AK in the eye I had something that worked. I doubt if the captain and crew are better than those on "Gilligan's Island" defense wise unless the pirates want a deck chair or a nice mixed drink. I like men and women I can depend on when it hits the fan and I don't fly now either but my odds on a plane with only a few people and no bomb to contend with are much better. Never lose your awareness, only takes one time.

many Cruise ships are equipped with an LRAD on board
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Cruise ships remind me of floating housing projects with bars and casinos to pander to their subjects' hedonism while depriving them of any real experience of sailing the seas or contacting or observing authentic foreign lifestyles. (Or maybe that's my sour grapes since my chances of a cruise ship vacation are now nil.)

Do subjects of the state in housing projects actually have rights as citizens? Naw, and neither do inmates of cruise ships.

I am used to the model that a home owner has an unquestioned right to arms for protection in their own home (TN state AG opinions and SC rulings 1870 to date), and international the model seems to apply to ships as well. At a recent book fair, I took time to browse a book on yachting: it had brief section on firearms and yachting. The sample of boat owners who had carried guns on boats was small, less than twenty IIRC, and experiences were mixed. A few would never consider sailing the high seas without arms, but most seemed to find the hassle of dealing with varying gun regulations in international ports too much trouble to make it a common practice. The advice was to contact the foreign ports ahead of time and be prepared to leave the gun(s) in police custody while in port and pick the gun(s) up just before leaving port (kinda like the rules enforced by the Earps in Tombstone). Attempting to hide guns from the authorities was always no-no: you do not want to be a suspected gun runner in some foreign jurisdictions.

If you are the master of your own vessel, you can be armed on the high seas. If you follow the laws of the ports you visit, you may be able to sail armed. Most yachtsmen (of an admittedly small sample) however found the legal hassle and rules a major pain in the sitting part. Still there were a few who stated they would not sail a private boat in international waters unarmed, despite the legal hoops they had to jump through.

But CCW on a commercial cruise liner? About as likely as CCW in population at the state prison.

Now, as far as CCW and piracy goes: most cruise ships have their first access deck so far off the water that the usual techniques used by pirates operating from small boats: grappeling hooks and rope ladders, just won't work. Besides, the height of the deck off the water is usually greater than the practical range of any gun that can be CCW'ed.

And as usual these a just my opinions, and I ask not that you agree with me only that you think about it (as the old radio editorialist used to say when I was a kid).