CCW for High School teachers

[dogtown tom]

I fear, that arming CITIZENS will expose them to all the same problems a cop has, and more.

It's very hard to deal with the testy kids, even for a 5 or 10 year cop. What happens when a mouthy kid shoves a CITIZEN in the chest and say, "Shoot me, B____!".

What if a CITIZEN has to pop a black kid? Brown kid?

I've been a school cop (high school), and ensuring weapon retention is very stressful.

Hector says, "What would you do if I grabbed your gun?". Hours later Hector's mom is calling the school and complaining that a CITIZEN threatened to kill her son.

The CITIZENS, as they are now, have no obligation to use any force above verbal commands. Start carrying a gun, and the whole picture changes. Students will perceive an armed CITIZENS differently, ans treat him/her differently.

I used to work one day a week at a school, full uniform, and never went a full year without a being an active participant in a fight.


I fear there is this vision out there, of a CITIZEN stopping a trenchcoated active shooter, and that's a great vision. But it's probably also the exception.

In reality, the CITIZEN will have to navigate the halls of the school woth the same exposure as a cop, but without the training or protection.

I know this reads "anti-CITIZEN", but I think arming CITIZENS is a lot to ask of them, and that it'll be unfairly evaluated after the fact.

The job didn't pay enough before, when they were only responsible for teaching, but now it's life & death? My fear is that you're asking too much, at any salary.


20+ years ago, my high school had a full time cop and 3 security guards... a big Samoan dude, a Wesley Snipes kinda dude, and an Andre The Giant dude. They regulated the BS very well.

Everyone had a defined job.

<----teacher.......also a citizen and has the same rights to self protection as anyone else. It shouldn't matter if you are a police officer, janitor, cafeteria lady, SWAT, PTA president or any parent.

 

[jmr40]

I retired in 2010 after teaching 30 years. It was never an option for me, although it was at least discussed briefly several years ago. If I had been allowed to carry I'd have used this.

https://www.kangaroocarry.com/

 

[DMK]

There are a lot of different concealable firearms and just as many ways to carry them. Some may be poor choices in this environment for sure, but I can't believe that it's impossible to carry a good defensive handgun in a way that makes printing very unlikely.

For example an S&W Shield in appendix carry for just one possibility.

Except when it’s not. I am not disagreeing with the idea that teachers can or should carry. I just wonder how they will accomplish the day to day classroom activities of a teacher and remain concealed. I can’t think of a more difficult situation to maintain concealment than a room full of students. It’s easy for me to stay concealed. Nobody is looking at me. I’m not standing in front of, working with, and talking with a group of students. The same students, day after day. Week after week. Man, I’m glad I’m not a teacher.

 

[Jeff H]

There are a lot of different concealable firearms and just as many ways to carry them. Some may be poor choices in this environment for sure, but I can't believe that it's impossible to carry a good defensive handgun in a way that makes printing very unlikely.

For example an S&W Shield in appendix carry for just one possibility.

A Shield in an ankle holster is another.

Any of the P3AT size 380 pistols can be invisible in a rear or front pocket.

There is options there that are completely undetectable unless someone brushes up against you and feels the gun.

 

[threefeathers]

I began my teaching career after I returned from SE/Asia in Bakersfield The year was 1970 and I taught at Lincoln jr. High and my wife at Potomac. Those familiar know that this is the heart of the so called Ghetto. The kid were wonderful but the adult gangs were a danger to teachers. I would have loved to carry.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I
What if teacher has to pop a black kid? Brown kid?

What if teacher has to pop a black kid? Brown kid? White kid? And doesn't have a gun?

 

[Warp]

Honestly, that's a much more important win than "assault weapons" anyway.

A handgun with you 24/7 will be a lot more likely to save your life than an AR15 in the car/truck.

Handgun carry is a big deal for personal self defense from typical violent criminals while away from home.

Rifles such as the so-called "assault weapons" are a big deal for the primary intent and purpose of the Second Amendment, meaning defense of Liberty and a tool to keep The People from being oppressed.

 

[Warp]

I fear, that arming teachers will expose them to all the same problems a cop has, and more.

It's very hard to deal with the testy kids, even for a 5 or 10 year cop. What happens when a mouthy kid shoves Ms. Krabopple in the chest and say, "Shoot me, B____!".

What if teacher has to pop a black kid? Brown kid?

I've been a school cop (high school), and ensuring weapon retention is very stressful.

Hector says, "What would you do if I grabbed your gun?". Hours later Hector's mom is calling the school and complaining that Ms. Krabopple threatened to kill her son.

The teachers, as they are now, have no obligation to use any force above verbal commands. Start carrying a gun, and the whole picture changes. Students will perceive an armed teaxher differently, ans treat him/her differently.

I used to work one day a week at a school, full uniform, and never went a full year without a being an active participant in a fight.


I fear there is this vision out there, of a teacher stopping a trenchcoated active shooter, and that's a great vision. But it's probably also the exception.

In reality, the teacher will have to navigate the halls of the school woth the same exposure as a cop, but without the training or protection.

I know this reads "anti-teacher", but I think arming teachers is a lot to ask of them, and that it'll be unfairly evaluated after the fact.

The job didn't pay enough before, when they were only responsible for teaching, but now it's life & death? My fear is that you're asking too much, at any salary.


20+ years ago, my high school had a full time cop and 3 security guards... a big Samoan dude, a Wesley Snipes kinda dude, and an Andre The Giant dude. They regulated the BS very well.

Everyone had a defined job.

This makes me wonder how I survive the mall and Best Buy and the movie theater when there are kids and teenagers around.

 

[DaisyCutter]

This makes me wonder how I survive the mall and Best Buy and the movie theater when there are kids and teenagers around.

Probably because you aren't in a closed environment with said teenagers, where you are defined as their authority figure and they have been culturally indoctrinated to prepetually challenge you.

Whereas, the mall you have space and the ability to avoid confrontation each other.

I pray you think more critically when you draw your gun than you do when you draw your keyboard.

 

[DaisyCutter]

<----teacher.......also a citizen and has the same rights to self protection as anyone else. It shouldn't matter if you are a police officer, janitor, cafeteria lady, SWAT, PTA president or any parent.

Changing the words of another's post, and then emphasizing them incorrectly as a quote in order to foster a tangent debate doesn't help the discussion.

It does, however, reveal an inferiority complex.

What I originally said, before it was changed, I said out of sincere respect and concern for teachers, because I don't want to see the teaching profession scapegoated and lambasted on the evening news after being placed in an impossible position. That concern is not to be confused with any idea that a teacher is somehow less than a citizen. Teaching is among the most noble callings in life, and goes grossly under appreciated.

 

[Warp]

Probably because you aren't in a closed environment with said teenagers, where you are defined as their authority figure and they have been culturally indoctrinated to prepetually challenge you.

Whereas, the mall you have space and the ability to avoid confrontation each other.

I pray you think more critically when you draw your gun than you do when you draw your keyboard.

Well, I did have that role on a college campus with its share of teenagers. IDK how I survived those kids...

 

[PabloJ]

After months of work, the largest comprehensive high school district in California changed the policy today. Detailed requirements have yet to be released, but it is a step forward.

http://bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/khsd-ccw-vote

My wife and I are both teachers in this district, and both hold CCW permits.

It is unacceptable to expect teachers to defend schools against terrorist attacks. Each school should be provided with couple of well-trained and armed personnel to address such situation. America is very wealthy country there is no reason this could not be done to protect our schools.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

How would you carry in a classroom setting?

I have never been a classroom teacher, but I cannot think of a good way to carry standing in front of a class full of kids. It would seem to me that sooner or later they would figure it out, and some parent would make a big deal out of it.

My aunt was a teacher in a school that had an active shooter event. So, I know it can happen and I get why you would want to be prepared. I just don’t see a good way.

It's not that hard, really. At 5'9" and about 175 pounds, I carry a 5" Colt 1991A1 IWB. Nobody notices it at all.

If you carry concealed properly, about the only way anybody would know is if word leaked out somehow.

Yeah, it's always possible it might be accidentally exposed on the odd occasion, but in a high school teacher's typical classroom setting with appropriate dress for concealed carry, it's not likely at all.

The secret is a combination of several things which have to work together. Your physical body type, the firearm, the belt, the holster, and how you dress all have to work together. For men, a GOOD gun belt and a GOOD holster are a must for any belt carry, especially IWB. Women, being curved differently at the hips, might have a more difficult time with IWB.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Interesting. I just looked at Kern County voting results for the 2016 election.

http://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/california/

54.7% for Trump, 39.7% for Clinton. Bakersfield is in a solidly red county, at least right now. Might go a little way towards explaining how this came to be.

 

[Ironicaintit]

It is unacceptable to expect teachers to defend schools against terrorist attacks. Each school should be provided with couple of well-trained and armed personnel to address such situation. America is very wealthy country there is no reason this could not be done to protect our schools.

Apply that logic to citizens everywhere and see what's left.

What I find unacceptable; Wells Fargo can go into the school with firearms to transfer cash, but the employees may not utilize the same right to protect the young people they are there for.

 

[DMK]

I always thought that each school should just put names in a hat of teachers willing to CCW and pick one or two or 10 at random depending on the size of school and keep the CCW's anonymous that way nobody turns themselves into a prime target. I realize this is a gross oversimplification of a possible answer to a very complex problem but you get the idea.........

It is unacceptable to expect teachers to defend schools against terrorist attacks. Each school should be provided with couple of well-trained and armed personnel to address such situation. America is very wealthy country there is no reason this could not be done to protect our schools.

A teacher or staff member with minimal to no combat training and only armed with a subcompact handgun is going to be a poor match to an attacker or multiple attackers with long guns and a plan die after killing as many others as possible. Armed only with a CCW, hunting down such a terrorist is suicide mission.

The best that they can hope for is to cover an evacuation or barricade themselves with their colleagues and students from the immediate area. If they are caught by surprise or their barricade is breached, only then does the handgun comes into play as a last ditch defense.

A well armed, well equipped and well trained professional with backup on comms is the best counter to an active shooter terrorist situation. All the schools and colleges in my area have a Deputy Sheriff on campus at all times.

 

[buck460XVR]

How would you carry in a classroom setting?

I have never been a classroom teacher, but I cannot think of a good way to carry standing in front of a class full of kids. It would seem to me that sooner or later they would figure it out, and some parent would make a big deal out of it.

My aunt was a teacher in a school that had an active shooter event. So, I know it can happen and I get why you would want to be prepared. I just don’t see a good way.

Same way any of us carry in any setting. Not that difficult. My concern would be with having a system with excellent retention. The biggest factor would be students knowing teachers are allowed to carry, and not knowing which ones do. This, IMHO, would tend to deter those students with an ax to grind, it would not deter tho, those students with a death wish followed by their name on the evening news.

High School kids are smarter than most folks give them credit for. Most could probably figure out which teachers would carry without them printing or exposing their weapon. Some would say this would make them a target. Many teachers would prefer they be a target as one of their students.

 

[DustyGmt]

A teacher or staff member with minimal to no combat training and only armed with a subcompact handgun is going to be a poor match to an attacker or multiple attackers with long guns and a plan die after killing as many others as possible. Armed only with a CCW, hunting down such a terrorist is suicide mission.

The best that they can hope for is to cover an evacuation or barricade themselves with their colleagues and students from the immediate area. If they are caught by surprise or their barricade is breached, only then does the handgun comes into play as a last ditch defense

I agree, armed professionals would be the better option but I feel like if I was in a school and heard shots start to touch off and I had my CCW I would probably take a second to collect myself while trying to keep my heart from beating out of chest and go and face the music...... After all I feel like a terrorist or some confused kid squaring off with me rifle vs. Handgun is better than rifle vs. Unarmed innocents.
It's probably just me or false confidence, kind of like being like 8 years old and practicing your punches and thinking "man, theres no way anybody could throw a faster, harder punch" but I just feel like I could at least get him bleeding and if it happens to save 2 or 50 lives it's better than nothing....... Idk, just a thought.

 

[DMK]

I agree, armed professionals would be the better option but I feel like if I was in a school and heard shots start to touch off and I had my CCW I would probably take a second to collect myself while trying to keep my heart from beating out of chest and go and face the music...... After all I feel like a terrorist or some confused kid squaring off with me rifle vs. Handgun is better than rifle vs. Unarmed innocents..

That would be tough to make that call, but on the other hand if you had a class full of students in your charge, you'd be running off leaving them undefended.

 

[Blacksmoke]

Why couldn't some class rooms have an 870 or 500 in a lock box with the teachers holding a key? Next to the fire extinguisher. Easier to handle in a stressful situation, certainly more effective. Of course, the school would have to keep the little darlings from breaking into it.

All things considered it makes more sense to have trained armed professionals in the schools.

 

[buck460XVR]

All things considered it makes more sense to have trained armed professionals in the schools.

While it would make more sense, it would be a very expensive proposition. In my small town of 10,000 people our school district has 9 different schools. While some of the small elementary schools could get by with one armed professional, the larger buildings like the Middle school and High School would need two or more because of their size and array. So a dozen armed guards at a cost of what? Gonna get a legitimate armed professional for less than $65,000 a year with bennies? Can't pay them less than the armed teachers they are supposed to be better than. Lets pop for a million bucks a year for armed guards in a district with a 10 million dollar a year budget? This is a school that has had to already lay off staff and reduce opportunities to student because of budget cuts.

Most schools have adopted training programs for teachers and staff with tru to life active shooter scenarios. Teachers/staff are taught the difference between the sound of a small caliber handgun and the sound of a book dropping on the hard floor(yep, they sound very similar). They have been trained to run, hide or fight with weapons commonly found in their rooms. They have been trained to use judgement as to what to do, when. They are not any more incompetent to CWC and protect our loved ones than most of us. Add to that improved building security measures introduced by school districts. Folks need to be realistic.

 

[X-Rap]

Could only guess on the number of schools in America but tens of thousands is probably a start.
Training, equipment, wages and benefits per man probably run well over 50k for a national average for a minimal threat.
Schools should be no different than any other public place and teachers should be allowed to carry as well as the public.

 

[DMK]

It doesn't have to be up to the school system. The county and state (and for that matter the federal govt) should all take some responsibility for this. My county and state does.

While it would make more sense, it would be a very expensive proposition. In my small town of 10,000 people our school district has 9 different schools. While some of the small elementary schools could get by with one armed professional, the larger buildings like the Middle school and High School would need two or more because of their size and array. So a dozen armed guards at a cost of what? Gonna get a legitimate armed professional for less than $65,000 a year with bennies? Can't pay them less than the armed teachers they are supposed to be better than. Lets pop for a million bucks a year for armed guards in a district with a 10 million dollar a year budget? This is a school that has had to already lay off staff and reduce opportunities to student because of budget cuts.

Most schools have adopted training programs for teachers and staff with tru to life active shooter scenarios. Teachers/staff are taught the difference between the sound of a small caliber handgun and the sound of a book dropping on the hard floor(yep, they sound very similar). They have been trained to run, hide or fight with weapons commonly found in their rooms. They have been trained to use judgement as to what to do, when. They are not any more incompetent to CWC and protect our loved ones than most of us. Add to that improved building security measures introduced by school districts. Folks need to be realistic.

 

[Warp]

It's not that hard, really. At 5'9" and about 175 pounds, I carry a 5" Colt 1991A1 IWB. Nobody notices it at all.

This theory is why I really enjoy when I spot a concealed carrier, and they have no idea. I just know they get online that night and say nobody has ever "made" them while carrying

 

[Warp]

Same way any of us carry in any setting. Not that difficult. My concern would be with having a system with excellent retention. The biggest factor would be students knowing teachers are allowed to carry, and not knowing which ones do. This, IMHO, would tend to deter those students with an ax to grind, it would not deter tho, those students with a death wish followed by their name on the evening news.

High School kids are smarter than most folks give them credit for. Most could probably figure out which teachers would carry without them printing or exposing their weapon. Some would say this would make them a target. Many teachers would prefer they be a target as one of their students.

It doesn't have to if a teacher/faculty/visiting parent/any other licensed adult who happens to be present blindsides the active shooter with a bullet through the brain, or if aren't or can't get that close, a smattering of bullets into the body, long before police are able to respond to the location.