CCW means Concealed.

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Concealed mean concealed. Cut and dried.

Maybe where you are 'concealed' is a legal term with a very specific definition attached to it. Other places, not so much- for example, Vermont, which has no restrictions on how one carries a handgun. As such, the term 'concealed' has no legal meaning whatsoever here. Cut and dried.

I think you're experiencing a bit of mission creep in 'truths we hold to be self-evident' department.
 
And, to carry it further, maybe it means that your carry philosophy aligns more with the folks who prefer to maintain the element of surprise in potential violent encounters.
Element of surprise is an offensive action, not a defensive action. No army trains their soldiers to conceal their arms in case they are attacked. They train them to have their arms out and exposed so they can attack before they are attacked. Do cops conceal their arms on duty in case a criminal attacks them? They wear them openly.

Springmom, that's why I will never live in a state that prohibits open carry, like TX.
 
Element of surprise is an offensive action, not a defensive action. No army trains their soldiers to conceal their arms in case they are attacked. They train them to have their arms out and exposed so they can attack before they are attacked. Do cops conceal their arms on duty in case a criminal attacks them? They wear them openly.

Springmom, that's why I will never live in a state that prohibits open carry, like TX.
No army trains their soldiers to conceal their weapons? Right......

I think you'll find that for soldiers who require it, there's training on what is appropriate and when.

Unless your house happens to be on a battlefield, and all the places you go to are on a battlefield, I can't really see your point.
 
Element of surprise is an offensive action, not a defensive action.

I really don't intend to get into debating the merits of either position. Just pointing out how different folks have legitimately differing views on the matter.

However, I disagree with your statement here. The element of surprise CAN be a very valuable defensive tool. This has been debated many times on this site and elsewhere, but the jist of it is that, a violent actor who does not know that you are armed is less likely to be able to react instantly to your defensive act than one who is aware of your gun and your intent to react against him. A hold-up man in a mini-mart who's about to eliminate the witnesses is at a disadvantage if he doesn't know that one of the witnesses is armed. If he saw an openly carried gun on someone's hip, maybe he wouldn't have held the place up -- maybe he would have, who knows? But explosive, violent reaction to the threat of violence can only be AIDED by the possibility of an unexpectedcounter-attack.

No army trains their soldiers to conceal their arms in case they are attacked. They train them to have their arms out and exposed so they can attack before they are attacked.
A soldier's job is quite different from that of a civilian practicing self-defense, though. A soldier's job is to take the fight to the enemy -- offensively if at all possible -- and at as great a range as possible. Or to defend a known position with force of arms. Further, the presence of a military uniform implies the means of delivering deadly force, so concealment would be pointless.

A citizen is charged with no such obligations, nor does he/she have the freedom to act in that way.

Purely offensive action being off-limits to the civilian in public, you're left with the argument of the openly-carried weapon as a deterrant to violent attack. It is valid to believe that a gun on your hip would encourage some attackers to avoid you. It is also valid to reason that this simply gives the more bold/aggressive types the opportunity to change tactics.

If you carry concealed, you don't know if another citizen will attack you, and no other person knows if you have the means and will to fight back. You're on even ground, with the exception that an attacker will always have the element of surprise over you. If you carry openly, you've given that small bit of strategic advantage (for whatever it's worth) away, and now an attacker knows that you would act and HOW. Again, some may choose to avoid you. Some may choose to shoot you from behind and score a nice new free weapon.

Once more, I don't necessarily adhere strongly to either side of this argument. Statistics to give evidence of liklihood of either eventuality are hard to come by. We all step out into the world prepared as best we can be for the threats that we expect we are most lilkely to face. If you feel that you're more likely to ward off trouble by openly carrying, that's fine for you. If someone else desires to keep the surprise advantage that they believe exists, that's fine for them -- a gun isn't a magic talisman that wards off evil.

And some folks live in places where these decisions are not (legally) up to them.

Do cops conceal their arms on duty in case a criminal attacks them? They wear them openly
They wear them openly as part of their uniform -- as a badge of authority and a visible representation of the lethal force they are empowered to use while enforcing the law. A civilian has none of this authority or duty. Further, there are plenty of reasons besides the visible weapon for a violent actor to not attack a police officer. (Little gain in it even if successful, massive repurcussions, high probability of back-up or patrol partners nearby and the near instant communication/reporting of the incident over the police radio that will make escape difficult, etc.) There are a great many things that a police officer would do that are not applicable to the civilian on the street.

And, lastly, if the LEO angle is truly valid, why do the majority of off-duty cops (the few who carry off-duty, anyway :rolleyes:) carry concealed? Why not just throw on the duty rig with jeans and a polo shirt when they hit the town?

Springmom, that's why I will never live in a state that prohibits open carry, like TX.
Agreed. I'd hate to say "NEVER," but I'm glad I don't have to worry about it.

-Sam
 
Exactly. No chest thumping. No bravado. No "hey look at me I got a gun!".

IMO, unless it's a state requirement, making such a big deal about keeping the gun 110% concealed 25 hours per day is the same sort of "chest thumping." Calling someone else an idiot because he isn't like you most assuredly is.

I conceal in town because I want to avoid "look at me I've got a gun!" I also don't think that having the gun is such a big deal like you do, kanewpaddle.

You really think you're so damned important that a glimpse of a grip in your pocket will make the world grind to a halt? I think you may suffer from a different manifestation of the same problem as someone who wants to flaunt the thing.
 
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The element of surprise CAN be a very valuable defensive tool. This has been debated many times on this site and elsewhere, but the jist of it is that, a violent actor who does not know that you are armed is less likely to be able to react instantly to your defensive act than one who is aware of your gun and your intent to react against him.

I agree with you there. However, this must be balanced with the accessibility of the gun.

If "concealed" means you have to draw a lot of attention to yourself and/or take more than a split second to get the thing out, you've really lost that element of surprise, except that you're probably going to be surprised at what it feels like to get shot.

That extra assurance that nobody, ever, under any circumstances, will ever know you have a gun, because it's so well buried under layers of clothing, can also render that firearm useless for self-defense.

Everything needs to be considered in the greater context, here.

Purely offensive action being off-limits to the civilian in public, you're left with the argument of the openly-carried weapon as a deterrant to violent attack.

Not at all.

If I'm open carrying in the city, it's probably because I am on the way to the mountains, all geared up with equipment including the gun, and I stopped to get gas. Violent attack at the gas station has nothing to do with why I'm open carrying. I just don't see the need to make it a point to hide my gun at that point, because it can be a PITA to undo a belt holster. I'm just not such an important mall ninja as to have to conceal every gun I ever have with me so I can fight off hordes of enemy ninja at any time.:)
 
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I agree with you there.
Well, thanks, but I wasn't really even stating my carry philosophy as much as I was trying to point out that there are many valid points and calling each other names over which we might choose is mind-bogglingly dumb.

Save that kind of vitreol for which light beer is less filling...:barf:

However, this must be balanced with the accessibility of the gun.
I was going to post that exact thing but I felt I was running a bit long.

I was going to point out that a practiced civilian can often draw from reasonably adequate concealment (say a camp shirt, untucked but buttoned) faster than can the average LEO from an openly-carried level-II retention holster. Obviously this has a lot to do with the level of training/practice of both individuals, but I've seen this many times first-hand.

Put that concealed weapon in a tuckable IWB under an Oxford shirt and a sport coat, and the speed will change -- maybe a lot, maybe a little. Deep conceal it, like in a Smart Carry/Thunderwear rig, ankle-holster, man-purse or day-planner "un-holster", or in a fanny pack, and now the draw is WAY off.

(Que all the folks who say they can draw and fire an 8" .500 S&W from their Thunderwear under Levis 501s and a snow-mobile suit in under 8/10s of a second...)

Those are all still reasonable options depending on your comfort level and situation.

My biggest problem with this whole thread (aside from the childish derision) is that anything like middle ground seems to be attacked vehemently from both sides. Just weird.

-Sam
 
Purely offensive action being off-limits to the civilian in public, you're left with the argument of the openly-carried weapon as a deterrant to violent attack.
Not at all.

If I'm open carrying in the city, it's probably because ...
Oh, sure. I didn't mean to say that was the only reason to open-carry. That came out a little wrong.

Freakshow had said:
[Armies] train [soldiers] to have their arms out and exposed so they can attack before they are attacked.
and I was simply pointing out the strategic error of thinking that this applied to civilians, and illustrating the possible valid "strategic" benefits (to your success in a violent encounter) of having your gun open to view.

Pure convinience and, as I said before, a visible show of your exercise of your rights are all valid reasons to O.C.

-Sam
 
My biggest problem with this whole thread (aside from the childish derision) is that anything like middle ground seems to be attacked vehemently from both sides. Just weird.

Well, I hope you didn't mind my use of derision (sometimes childish and certainly not aimed at you) to support the middle ground...:D
 
a lot of good posts in this thread, well worth the read
(Sam1911, ArmedBear, springmom, others)

"Concealed means cowardly" was not one of them, though

"concealed" means concealed
"open" means open
specific legal definitions are for people who feel the need to dispute what the meaning of the word "is" is
responsible citizens of a free republic have choices, and ought respect the choices of other responsible citizens who respect their choices

"momma raised a fool, not an idiot child"
 
The concealed/not concealed problem would quickly be solved if law enforcement officers from any given state were also to abide by the prescibed carry specifications in their state. A cop should not arrest you for anything they might do themselves. If they were held to the same standards (it's not yet that way in Ohio, and we have a problem here), then the whole issue would be resolved. As the fella from Geogia stated, the cop told him to hide his gun. Would that cop scold another GA police officer for accidentally exposing his concelaed weapon? Eliminate the double standard and the problem goes way........
 
CCW means Concealed.

I used to live in TN, and my old permit says "Handgun Carry Permit". Nowhere does it say "CCW" or "Concealed Carry License".

I carried openly, often, when I lived in TN and only once did I catch any heat for it, and the ignorant clerk was corrected by her manager for hassling law abiding customers.

I understand that some people don't like it when others carry open, but they really need to realize that in this country people should be left alone unless they are hurting someone else. Your "needs" are different from someone elses, not to mention that we can always be wrong in our views and need to change. If we went by what we "need" we wouldn't be allowed to carry at all, because 99.99% of people will never need a gun to defend themselves in the first place.

Kudos to those who carry in the open, it helps to desensitize an uneducated public to the presence of firearms. If more gun owners carried openly, more people would be fine with the idea of law abiding citizens carrying guns.
 
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There is a gal who owns the sandwich shop across from where I work who open carries a Glock. (Subcompact model). There are often police eating there who are open carrying. I have gone into the store with co-workers who will be served by this gal and utterly fail to notice the gun until I point it out. People are just not observant of their environment.

I do conceal, but have become less paranoid. Thus far, I have only been made once when this couple spotted the gun when I went to pick up my 2 year old son. Anti-gun folks they were happily chatting with me before I picked up my son and then went silent when they spotted the gun.
 
i carry a full size S&W Sigma auto in .40. Grandfather Oak kydex IWB every day no matter the weather. in the last few months its been hot as hell here in seattle so i just wear a T-shirt and jeans. every once in a while i print. i don't care though because ive never had a problem and quite honestly i could care less if some liberal freaks out because they see the outline of the corner of the grip.

i used to care if people saw it or saw it printing when i first got my permit, but after 3 years i don't care. let them worry them selves while i enjoy my day.
 
You know what? I don't care. The people who are going to notice are other gun guys, and I don't care if they know. Follow the law, and some places have laws that forbid printing, but I'm in one of them. In 14 years of carrying, I'm not aware that I've ever been made, but it wouldn't matter to me if I were.

I open carried all day yesterday, fueling a truck and ATVs, and going out to the desert to play. Big fat who cares.
 
As evidenced by the above two posts, open carry guys always seem to say "I don't care". Rather irresponsible attitude for someone carrying a gun. But that seems to be the open carry mentality.

I have asked repeatedly why people open carry and usually get the same BS. Always some badass that doesn't care about anything but himself. They can't give an honest ITELLIGENT answer either because they doen't have one or don't know any better.

I live in the Seattle area also. I have seen open carry guys get "rousted" or even arrested. They have gotten their CPL taken away and their guns too.

Is it worth trying to show the whole world your a badass? I don't think so.
 
Heck - I have one of the Woolrich Elite vests... used to wear it when my oldest was a small toddler - dang thing kept the 1911 concealed, held a couple of diapers, a pacifer, and a couple of wipes, my phone and wallet... it was amazing... :)
Most of my neighbors thought I was just REALLY into fishing or photography... and these are people that I hang out with a lot...
Only after another incident (another story - and long) that they realized it was for something else...
 
kanewpadle-

I re-read my post, and I realized that I left out a critical 'not'. It is perfectly legal to open carry where I live. This is why I first emphasized. FOLLOW THE LAW.

Having said that, I don't care. I use discretion, I know there's a possibility of doing our cause more harm than good by deliberately open carrying in a time and place where it will ruffle feathers. But I'm a responsible professional with the law, common sense, training, and precedent on my side. I CHOOSE to live in a place where this is the prevailing attitude.

And I know how to spell "intelligent".
 
My CT permit says "State Permit to Carry Pistols and Revolvers"

When I began looking around to determine whether or not my pistol needed to be 100% concealed 100% of the time it proved to be very gray area. Our state laws do not require the weapon to be concealed. It does however say the following

Q36. Does my permit to carry pistols and revolvers permit me to carry on my person?

A. Yes. However, mature judgment dictates that every effort should be made to make sure that no gun is exposed to view or carried in any manner that would tend to alarm

I have only once had a person suspect me of carrying a gun. I happened to be in a gun store with my Maxpediton Fatboy in OD, when an "gentleman" (I'm being polite) told me that my bag looked like a gun bag and that I should throw it out and get something else. Before I could tell him to shove it and tell him that he too looked suspicious I bit my tongue. I politely told him that I only use the bag when I go to work and that scrubs don't have pockets and the cops that we routinely have at my ER don't really seem to notice. I wanted to tell him that he should pay more attention to his own attire. When you wear pants with a long sleeved shirt and a vest in 80 degree weather it's not suspicious at all. I just shook my head told the store owner I would see him later and walked away.
 
All that can be said has been said. Anything more is simply a rehash of the stuff that was written first time y'all talked past each other. ;)
 
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