Centerfire Rifle Match(Jan)

[KSCCHTrainer]

KSCCHtrainer, you are not a burden to any of us and hope you will reconsider. And since you are shooting an old surplus rifle, I think you're at a big disadvantage!

Well, I feel that I have been accused of cheating because I have to use the indoor range. I can't afford to drive an hour to an hour and a half every time I want to shoot. The indoor range is close enough that I can go every day if I can afford the range fees (not all that often either as I'm living on a fixed income.) The old surplus rifle isn't a factor as I have found that it will deliver bullets on target with quite a bit more intrinsic accuracy than many hunting rifles costing in the $1K and over range.

I am not a gunsmith, but I have learned some of the techniques that can be used to make a rifle (and a handgun) shoot more accurately without having to pay somebody which I cannot afford even if I could find someone willing to work on an old 69 year old Russian battle rifle.

I really took offense at that gentleman's comments and until I get an apology from him, I will be absent from this forum -- end of comments --

 

[Maverick223]

+1, anyone shooting a 70YO Mosin should get bonus points.

 

[Heavies]

KSCCHtrainer,
I think that you are the best competitor we have. I don't feel you are a burden to anyone. You give us all a goal. I don't know why there are complaints, at 100 yards wind will hardly affect the impact on a high powered rifle bullet. This ain't benchrest group shooting! If people are missing the ring, something else is amiss. Instead of complaining about indoor vs. outdoor, work on load, rifle, and most of all the nut behind the butt.
My vote is you stay!

 

[JDGray]

KC,
If I thought you cheated, you wouldn't have won. At 100 yrds, wind really doesn't play a factor. People that say it does, are looking for excuses for their own shortcomings

 

[R.W.Dale]

At 100 yrds, wind really doesn't play a factor.

I disagree, wind matters

I'm not gonna comment how it pertains to a match so please don't take it that way but at 100yds even my 175smk load at 2900 shifts POI by .3" if the wind changes from 10 to 5 mph. This assuming a straight up change in velocity at 90*

For lighter calibers wind plays an even larger factor. For a 52g matchking from a .223 the same wind velocity change pushes POI by over .6". That's the difference between a perfect X and a clean miss with a .22 caliber on the target we're using at only a 5 mph change

Again assuming you a straight up crosswind which if you set up flags you'll notice it's not even that simple as a lit of times the wind is blowing a different direction at 50yds than 100

 

[MCMXI]

at 100 yards wind will hardly affect the impact on a high powered rifle bullet. This ain't benchrest group shooting! If people are missing the ring, something else is amiss. Instead of complaining about indoor vs. outdoor, work on load, rifle, and most of all the nut behind the butt.
My vote is you stay!

I will respectfully disagree with this too. Wind definitely affects the bullet at 100 yards and this is kind of like benchrest shooting where many of us are missing 3 points by the slightest of margins. But Heavies makes an excellent point that this exercise should be about improving ourselves, our rifles, our optics and the load. I have absolutely no problem shooting a lower score than a 16 year old girl or a member shooting a 70 year old rifle. Their performance is just interesting data and it doesn't pertain to me in any way, shape or form other than to show me what's possible and what isn't for THEIR system, under THEIR conditions. I'm competing against myself and no one else. The only way we could be competing against each other is if we all met up at a range and shot at the same time within a time constraint ... like F-Class. If we were shooting F-Class, there would be categories such as F-TR or F-O. There's a reason why .308 Win and .223 Rem are in their own class. There's also a reason why F-TR only allows a front bipod and no front rest. There's also a reason why F-Class and most rifle matches have time constraints. Take this for what it is.

I'm looking forward to the next "match". This is great practice for F-Class.

 

[9X23WIN]

I'm disappointed that the January match is ending in controversy and hope that this month's match will not follow suite. Everyone has to remember that the match is INFORMAL and should be treated as such.
FWIW, I went to the range to shoot the match today and had an unfortunate incident. All I have to say is that I still have my eyes, face, fingers and my life intact. It puts everything into perspective really fast.

 

[9X23WIN]

Well, I feel that I have been accused of cheating because I have to use the indoor range. I can't afford to drive an hour to an hour and a half every time I want to shoot. The indoor range is close enough that I can go every day if I can afford the range fees (not all that often either as I'm living on a fixed income.) The old surplus rifle isn't a factor as I have found that it will deliver bullets on target with quite a bit more intrinsic accuracy than many hunting rifles costing in the $1K and over range.

I am not a gunsmith, but I have learned some of the techniques that can be used to make a rifle (and a handgun) shoot more accurately without having to pay somebody which I cannot afford even if I could find someone willing to work on an old 69 year old Russian battle rifle.

There's no need to explain. I just hope you reconsider and not let an individual's opinion affect you shooting the match.

 

[MCMXI]

FWIW, I went to the range to shoot the match today and had an unfortunate incident. All I have to say is that I still have my eyes, face, fingers and my life intact. It puts everything into perspective really fast.

Imagine how much worse you would feel if it was your daughter that experienced this near miss. Good to hear that you're ok. So what happened?

As for this match ending in controversy, everyone is free to express an opinion, regardless of whether we agree with it. I only have a problem when someone IS cheating and KSCCHTrainer certainly wasn't. He gave full disclosure of how and what he was shooting so what's the problem? He could have claimed that he shot his target outside and we'd be none the wiser so he's a man of honor in my book. I hope he participates in the next match too.

 

[Heavies]

FWIW, I went to the range to shoot the match today and had an unfortunate incident. All I have to say is that I still have my eyes, face, fingers and my life intact. It puts everything into perspective really fast.

Sorry to hear this! I hope everything is ok.

I also hope KC will reconsider. One persons opinion certainly does not speak for me.

 

[Maverick223]

9X23WIN, glad you still have all your bits and pieces...forgive my inquisitiveness but would you mind elaborating?

 

[9X23WIN]

What happen? My rifle chambered in 243WSSM blew up. Don't know why...the load was one grain above starting. No obstruction in the barrel as I already have sent 5 rounds down range. The barrel looks fine but the stock is cracked around the action at 9 different locations. The trigger guard was blown apart too. The bolt is currently frozen in the action. I can only assume bad powder. I'm lucky not to be seriously hurt.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Holy cow! I'm glad you're ok!

I'm assuming the rifle in question was a modern bolt action?

About the only thing that ever blows a modern turnbolt apart at the action is a fast handgun powder used in leiu of the proper propellants.

Was the ammo factory or a handload, a new powder batch or some you've used previously.

I understand if you don't want to but I'd like to encourage you to make a thread about the incident to perhaps encourage folks to use proper PPE


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

 

[jerkface11]

I really took offense at that gentleman's comments and until I get an apology from him, I will be absent from this forum -- end of comments --

I'm sorry I pointed out that shooting with no wind and no mirage gives you an advantage.

 

[Maverick223]

9X23WIN, sorry to hear that your gun was damaged, but glad that you weren't injured. Better the rifle than the rifleman.

 

[9X23WIN]

I'm assuming the rifle in question was a modern bolt action?

About the only thing that ever blows a modern turnbolt apart at the action is a fast handgun powder used in leiu of the proper propellants.

Dale, after many years of reloading at least a half million rounds of rifle, pistol and shotgun cartridges, I thought I'll never screw up. But I did. I'm very careful and focused when reloading ammo. But somehow, I had a mental lapse and accidentally grabbed and used a wrong canister of powder, even though every process of my reloading was double checked. I used IMR4198 instead of IMR4831. One person ran the fatal load through Quickload and said the psi level was at 119,000. Though I lost a nice M70 Stealth 2 rifle, I still have my eyes, hands and life and I'm grateful for that. This accident is not going to stop me from reloading or shooting. I just got to pay even more attention to details and hopefully avoid another incident.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I haven't had such a mishap yet but I can certainly sympathize. As an experienced hand-loader the one thing that worries me most is having that one oversight make it through. I know that experience also has a tendency to breed complacency (in my case, I'm not accusing you). I just hope I can always treat this hobby with the diligence it deserves but I also worry a great deal that by it's very definition the one time I'm not paying attention I won't notice I've done anything wrong until I'm left dealing with the results. That's where always wearing proper safety gear comes into play

Again I'm glad you're OK

 

[MCMXI]

I used IMR4198 instead of IMR4831.

Really sorry to hear that. If it were me, and given the amount of reloading that I do for .308 Win, I probably would have grabbed IMR4895 which is just about midway between IMR4198 (fast) and IMR4831(slow). I wish you'd done that ... you might still have the rifle. That's one of the things I like about Alliant's nomenclature for their rifle powders, it's simple. Reloder 7, 11, 10X, 12, 15, 17, 19, 22 and 25 ... much harder to screw up with easy to read numbers and different color labels. The powder works good too.

 

[Maverick223]

That's one of the things I like about Alliant's nomenclature for their rifle powders, it's simple. Reloder 7, 11, 10X, 12, 15, 17, 19, 22 and 25 ... much harder to screw up with easy to read numbers and different color labels. The powder works good too.

Amen to that (Hodgdon is one of my favorite powder manufacturers, but to a lesser extent they have the same problem). Not only does Alliant come in color coded canisters with simple designations, but their designations are ordered according to their respective speed and their pistol powders use a different naming convention altogether...a marvelous system. I like the tall canister shape better too (though their tops are somewhat easy to break).

 

[9X23WIN]

That's one of the things I like about Alliant's nomenclature for their rifle powders, it's simple. Reloder 7, 11, 10X, 12, 15, 17, 19, 22 and 25 ... much harder to screw up with easy to read numbers and different color labels. The powder works good too.

I totally agree! Regardless, I was careless and need to go back to school to learn how to read numbers.

For those who are interested, you can read about the life and death of my 243WSSM below.

http://forums.wssmzone.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2745&whichpage=1

 

[jerkface11]

119,000psi wow.

 

[Maverick223]

A bit late now; but I always use a carbide scribe to scratch the top of the canister of powder (save for Alliant, who uses plastic tops...I use a silver Sharpie on those) with the cartridge(s) that I use it with.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Luckily we only have H380, IMR 3031 and IMR 4064 hanging around. None of them really look similar.

I have been thinking about trying some other powders to find an accuracy sweet spot, but am not willing to take that hit to my wallet. Guess this is another thing to think about.

 

[9X23WIN]

I have been thinking about trying some other powders to find an accuracy sweet spot, but am not willing to take that hit to my wallet. Guess this is another thing to think about.

I was in the process of load development for the gun. Even though the rifle is around eight years old, it has only been out to the range a total of seven times of which four of them during the past two weeks. The rifle started as a 2moa gun and last week, it came down to a .790 average, and that was using 9 different loads. On my last fatal outing, I had various loads made up using 6 different powders. I believe this factory rifle had the potential to be a shooter. You just have to play with different combination of powders and bullets to see what works in your rifle. So personally, I think it's well worth trying a few other powders.

 

[jerkface11]

I've been waiting to get my hands on some Superform before really working up a load for my wssm. The numbers look really good with it. High charge density and velocity.