Changing out MIM parts on S&W 15-8?

Status
Not open for further replies.

km101

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
512
Location
Texas; The State Most Likely to Secede!
I recently purchased a S&W model 15-8. It has the MIM hammer and trigger. I want to know if it is possible to change out the MIM parts for standard steel parts. Before I buy the replacement parts, I thought I would check with the experts here to see if it is do-able. If it's possible I will have them installed by a competent gunsmith. I just want to know if it is physically possible, not whether it is a good idea. If it is not possible, then I will continue to enjoy the gun as it is.

And before anyone asks "WHY", it's just because I want to. I know about the reliability, etc. of the MIM parts. I have read the S&W blog. So please don't turn this into a discussion of MIM vs. steel.
 
Primarily, you're not going to replace a MIM hammer with no firing pin with a forged hammer that has a firing pin.

You're unlikely to find a flat-nosed forged hammer, to fit a frame-mounted firing pin.
Denis
 
In short, no, it is not possible.

As stated, the old forged hammers had the hammer nose (firing pin) mounted in the hammer, and a FP bushing pressed into the frame for it to protrude through.

The later MIM guns all have the flat face hammer, and the firing pin mounted in the frame.

rc
 
...and that is just another reason why older S&W revolvers hold their resale value so well, and are appreciating in value.
 
Good luck finding old forged parts for S&Ws. I would much rather buy an old S&W than mess with the current production guns.
 
Well the Old Fuff is going to disagree with some of his colleagues, but only partly. :eek:

It's true you can't exchange hammers for the reasons previously stated. But you can use an older trigger assembly with it's associated parts - provided you also change the rebound slide and possibly the hand and cylinder stop.

Doing all this, plus the required skilled labor is likely to prove to be expensive. So before making a move determine the total cost and like has been suggested see if it wouldn't be cheaper to sell the gun you have, and use the proceeds combined with what the conversion will cost, to purchase the revolver you really want.

If you chose to go forward anyway, be aware that pre-MIM, K, L and N frame Smith & Wesson's used the same triggers, but different hammers. This might give you some additional options if you go looking for a trigger.
 
Just curious, but why would someone who dislikes MIM that much buy a gun with MIM parts in the first place? There are plenty of good used pre-MIM guns out there.

Jim
 
Howdy

You might want to check out the comparison I did earlier this year between a Model 17-3 and a Model 617-6. One is a traditional revolver with forged and machined parts made in 1975, the other is a stainless revolver with MIM parts made in 2003.

Close examination of the parts and the way they function in the two guns will show that the parts are not at all interchangeable. It is more than just where the firing pin is located. The forged parts and the MIM parts are completely different.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=769929
 
To bring this back to a sharp point, can you express specifically what improvement you would expect?

I am fully familiar with the distaste among us "traditionalists" the MIM parts evoke, much less familiar with the practical disadvantage in use of any description.

P.S. Any thought that you would by so doing instil "vintage Smith" collectability is a fools errand.
 
True again. You cannot simply switch in a stripped trigger. You will likely have to, for all practical purposes, change everything but the hammer.

However it has been done, not only by the Old Fuff, but also at S&W when they were making the transition from old to new style lock work.

However don't take this to be a recommendation.
 
I have a 3" 696-1 with the MIM trigger and hammer and it has a nice SA and a sweet DA pull. I shoot it better DA than my 2 1/2" 686-3 with forged parts. While aesthetically the hammer and trigger can't compare to the older forged parts, they work well and I don't worry about them.

What about the revolver is it that you don't like, just the fact it has MIM, or does the trigger not suit you?

I have a Colt or two with "Sintered" parts. That process wasn't overly well thought of, but I don't worry about them either.

But yea, the old forged parts look much nicer. :)
 
The first two years of the 696 production had some of the best DA triggers S&W has ever produced on a factory revolver and they needed very little work to make them incredibly smooth. (although I am not sure why that is)
 
Thank you Driftwood Johnson. This is the information that I was looking for! It does not seem possible from what you tell me. And thanks Old Fuff, but if I can't change both, it's not worth the trouble. The trigger on this gun is almost as good as some of my early S&Ws.

To touch on some of the other comments: I don't care for the look of the MIM parts. They look cheap and plain compared to the color cased steel parts which I much prefer. And I think that they detract from the looks of the gun. Having said that, the gun works and shoots very well and since the exchange is not possible I will continue to own and shoot it. It's still a fun gun to shoot.

To answer several comments like "If you hate MIM parts why did you buy the gun?".
I cannot pass up a good deal. I bought this gun at less than half of the current market price. And with the thought that I might be able to change out the offending parts, I couldn't pass it up. I haven't had a model 15 of any description in my collection for several years so it was not a difficult decision. MIM or not, it's a great gun and I will keep it.
 
And thanks Old Fuff, but if I can't change both, it's not worth the trouble. The trigger on this gun is almost as good as some of my early S&Ws.

Which was the point I was trying to make. It isn't that you can't change out some of the parts, it's that by the time you change everything you have to, it isn't worth it.

Another example might be CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) contestants who buy an Italian-made clone of Colt's 1873 Single Action Army, and then pay a gunsmith to exchange and fit genuine Colt parts into it. Can it be done? Sure, and it has been. Is this cost effective? Well that's open to debate.

I agree with you when it comes to MIM cosmetics, but that in itself hardly justifies changing most of the internal lockwork. The best way to get the older "high quality look," is to buy a complete revolver that already has it.
 
I don't care for the look of the MIM parts. They look cheap and plain compared to the color cased steel parts which I much prefer.
If it is just the "look" you're concerned about, I believe I read somewhere that you can "add color" to metal part for the old look.

I didn't have an interest at the time and didn't really look too far into it, but the information is out there
 
I believe I read somewhere that you can "add color" to metal part for the old look.

I know of several such processes, but they all involve heat.

MIM parts consist of fine metal particles that are fused together with a non-metallic binder.

Using heat to color the part(s) might not be a good idea.

In the past S&W flash-chrome plated MIM hammers and triggers to better match stainless steel revolvers. Later they dropped it for a cost savings.

Were I to do anything to hide the "ugly" appearance of current parts I would pick plating over anything else.

As it is, my small personal collection doesn't have anything in it that requires any correction. :cool:
 
I'm late to the party, but Apex Tactical makes a forged DAO hammer for the K-, L-, and N-frame S&W (first link below). The website indicates their hammers are for the L- and N-frame, but I spoke with Apex directly, and they tell me the L-frame hammer also fits the K-frame. The K-/L-frame hammer also comes with the sear installed (like shown for the N-frame hammer), though some fitting may be required.

As far as the trigger, Power Custom makes a forged replacement, available from Brownells (2nd link).

What it comes down to is how much do you really dislike MIM parts, and do you mind shooting double action? An Apex hammer and Power Custom trigger will set you back $265 plus shipping and any gunsmithing charges you may need.

Apex Hammers:
https://store.apextactical.com/WebDirect/Products/Category?categoryId=24

Power Custom Trigger:
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-pa...-w-revolver-custom-trigger-kit-prod32494.aspx
 
Another example might be CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) contestants who buy an Italian-made clone of Colt's 1873 Single Action Army, and then pay a gunsmith to exchange and fit genuine Colt parts into it. Can it be done? Sure, and it has been. Is this cost effective? Well that's open to debate.

I have been shooting CAS a long time, and I have never heard of anybody doing that. Everyone that I have ever talked to paid a gunsmith to tune up their Italian made clone with Italian made parts. Usually just doing fitting and polishing, seldom actually replacing any of the parts. And I have never heard of anybody trying to fit Colt parts into an Italian clone, although I do see your point.

MIM parts consist of fine metal particles that are fused together with a non-metallic binder.

Don't mean to be picking on you Old Fuff, but that description is not quite correct. MIM parts are made by first casting the part from a slurry consisting of fine metal particles and binder. When the part is ejected from the mold it is made of a matrix of metal particles and binder. At this point the part is called a 'green' part. Next, most of the binder is driven out by a combination of solvents, heat, and/or catalytic processes. At this point the part is porous because most of the binder has been driven out, only leaving a matrix of metal particles. This is a 'brown' part and it is extremely fragile. Finally, the parts are sintered by heating them to just below the melting temperature of the metal. This causes the metal particles to bind to each other, without actually melting.

But you are absolutely correct, heating a MIM part would probably be a bad idea.

I agree with you when it comes to MIM cosmetics, but that in itself hardly justifies changing most of the internal lockwork. The best way to get the older "high quality look," is to buy a complete revolver that already has it.

Agree 1000%!

If it is just the "look" you're concerned about, I believe I read somewhere that you can "add color" to metal part for the old look.

I didn't have an interest at the time and didn't really look too far into it, but the information is out there

The reason S&W Case Hardened their hammers and triggers may be a little bit surprising. Yes, Case Hardening hardens the outer surface of the parts, and that cuts down on wear.

But the other reason is to protect themselves against cheap imported imitations. In the early part of the 20th Century, there were a lot of cheap knockoffs of S&W revolvers being imported into this country. Most of the really bad ones were from Spain. S&W has always been very aggressive regarding patent infringement. S&W hammers and triggers were always Case Hardened, going all the way back to 1857. But Smith realized that by Trademarking their Case Hardening process they could protect themselves from cheap, imported competition. So Trademark #207951 was issued to Smith and Wesson on January 12, 1926. The wording of the Trademark was: '"The trade mark consists of a mottled color pattern predominantly brownish-gray and blue applied to the hammer and trigger of the arm by an appropriate color process." So starting in the 1920s S&W started stamping 'REG U.S. PAT OFF' on their hammers to indicate that their Color Case Hardening process was trademarked, and customs would have to stop the importation of any revolvers that violated this Trademark. Unlike a patent, Trademarks do not expire.

MampPRoundButtHammer_zps164fb140.jpg
 
Don't mean to be picking on you Old Fuff, but that description is not quite correct. MIM parts are made by first casting the part from a slurry consisting of fine metal particles and binder. When the part is ejected from the mold it is made of a matrix of metal particles and binder. At this point the part is called a 'green' part. Next, most of the binder is driven out by a combination of solvents, heat, and/or catalytic processes. At this point the part is porous because most of the binder has been driven out, only leaving a matrix of metal particles. This is a 'brown' part and it is extremely fragile. Finally, the parts are sintered by heating them to just below the melting temperature of the metal. This causes the metal particles to bind to each other, without actually melting.

The individual who started the thread made it clear that he didn't want it to degenerate into the usual pro and anti MIM parts argument. Therefore I didn't take the time to fully explain the process.

But you are absolutely correct, heating a MIM part would probably be a bad idea.

Which was the point I was trying to get across.

I have been shooting CAS a long time, and I have never heard of anybody doing that. Everyone that I have ever talked to paid a gunsmith to tune up their Italian made clone with Italian made parts. Usually just doing fitting and polishing, seldom actually replacing any of the parts. And I have never heard of anybody trying to fit Colt parts into an Italian clone, although I do see your point.

It's not a common practice, for obvious reasons. Same can be said about substituting "older parts" in place of "newer" MIM ones in Smith & Wesson's. Both procedures require near total rebuilding in the interior with some additional modifications. However the original question was, "Can it be done?" The answer is, "Yes - up to a point, but it isn't worth the time and expense."

Smith & Wesson did indeed try to get a trade-mark copyright on their case-hardened colors in a filing submitted on May 23, 1925. However the application was eventually denied because others (such as Colt) had, and were still using processes that produced similar colors - going well back into the 19th century. Thereafter S&W ceased to stamp hammers, as shown in your picture. You do take great pictures by the way. :)
 
MrBorland: Thanks, but no thanks. Swapping MIM for DAO is just trading one dislike for another. I don't shoot any disciplines that would benefit from DAO. And I plan to do some SA target practice with this gun.

Thanks for all the posts! I'm learning a lot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top