Changing safe S&G digital lockset for manual?

[Charlie98]

Friend of mine has a gunsafe that he has no end of problems with... mostly the electronic keypad. I've already replaced the digital unit once for him... and now he says it's jacked up, again. I suspect user headspace and timing... but I'm trying to help him.

Is it possible to just swap out the electronic S&G unit for a standard mechanical S&G unit? I've got a safe that's over 20 years old with a S&G spinner... and I've not had problem one with mine.

 

[MEHavey]

https://www.safeandlockstore.com/sargent-and-greenleaf-safe-lock-package-6730-100/

 

[Slamfire]

I won't have an electronic lock. I have talked to too many locksmiths about the failure rate of electronic locks, and the failure rate is orders of magnitude higher than the mechanical. One office I worked in, a new electronic safe lock failed, the locksmiths came in, and drilled open in the safe in about ten minutes, start, set-up, and open.

I asked them about the failure rate of electronic locks, and it was several a day. There are a lot of businesses in town that have safes to store company confidential information. Coming up with failure rate of mechanical locks stumped the locksmiths, maybe one a month.

I did have an old Government lock fail, and it had plastic parts. Really awful lock.This lock type is something to avoid, the delrin parts wear and fail.






Mechanical locks are easy to install, and I am sure the electronic locks are the same, self contained units with about four mounting screws and one shaft for the knob.

This describes various lock grades: Mechanical Safe Lock Groups

The 2M has the metal discs and will last basically forever: Group 2M Mechanical Safe Locks

This is a good quality mechanical lock




A video on installing a mechanical lock



Pink Panther movies cast safe crackers as high status individuals. Well the sort of person you have to worry about is the type who finds a pillow case, fills it with your stuff, and runs in ten minutes. The grab and run type does not have the time to tickle a safe lock open. The next step up are the ones who go to your garage, find the sledge hammer there, and beat the safe open. Which is loud, and takes time, but is mechanically simple. Safes provide a barrier, and give time. It is my opinion the lock that is needed for a home owner ought to be a reliable lock, over all other characteristics, based on the reports of the number of home safes that have to be drilled open because the lock failed.

I have a used Government safe, the Government lock failed, and it cost hundreds to get the thing open.

 

[edwardware]

Complaints of ED (Electronic Disfunction) are not uncommon.

In every RSC I've bought or worked on for someone. . . the electronic lock is attached in the same footprint as a standard mechanical lock. I buy a new or gently used SG or Kaba Group 2 on fleaBay, carefully swap, and have never had a problem.

I did have an old Government lock fail, and it had plastic parts. Really awful lock.This lock type is something to avoid, the delrin parts wear and fail.

The delrin wheels qualified the lock as TL*X, xray resistant. They're a feature, but not without their own shortcomings.

 

[Slamfire]

The delrin wheels qualified the lock as TL*X, xray resistant. They're a feature, but not without their own shortcomings.

A crazy reason for delrin wheels. A requirement that must have been created by security personnel who read too many James Bond Secret Agent man novels. Who has a portable X ray machine they can station around an 800 lb plus safe? Just pick up safe and move till the X Ray image is perfect? If the evil doers have physical possession of the safe, why not use a grinding wheel, sled hammer or oxy-actelyene torch or open the thing. Or, hire a locksmith who will have the thing open in ten minutes. You would think Dr Evil has a locksmith on speed dial.

 

[Charlie98]

We picked up a safe for my in-laws some years ago... and the salesman let us wander around in the back warehouse. A BUNCH of breached safes were back in the corner. Sales guy said most professional safecrackers don't go through the door... they cut into the side. 5 minutes with a Sawzall and you are into about 95% of the safes.

Personally, I wouldn't (don't) have an electronic keypad on a safe... but my buddy is a lazy Millennial... and they think everything that's computer controlled is great. It sounds like a mechanical lock is feasible... let's see if I can talk him into it.

 

[Slamfire]

We picked up a safe for my in-laws some years ago... and the salesman let us wander around in the back warehouse. A BUNCH of breached safes were back in the corner. Sales guy said most professional safecrackers don't go through the door... they cut into the side. 5 minutes with a Sawzall and you are into about 95% of the safes..

Makes sense, doors have two layers of metal to go through. The door, and then the door panel. I have not attempted to determine if the door is thicker than the body.

This is something I read in a newspaper. It was about some vintage, like 1900 or before safe that someone had, and the locksmith that opened the thing talked about what he found inside. The locksmith claimed that occasionally he encountered vintage safes that had a bottle of nitro glycerine positioned behind or in front the lock. The idea was, if a thief tried to bash the lock in with a sledge, the nitro would go off! I assume that would discourage safe thieves.

The good ole days when robbers and thieves were not considered as oppressed people.

 

[edwardware]

5 minutes with a Sawzall and you are into about 95% of the safes.

"about 95% of RSCs.

There, fixed that for you. That sort of thing is why some of us keep harping on the distinction.

 

[Charlie98]

"about 95% of RSCs.

There, fixed that for you. That sort of thing is why some of us keep harping on the distinction.

Ok, I'll bite... what's an RSC?

 

[rabid wombat]

Ok, I'll bite... what's an RSC?

Residential security container….

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/g...ity-containers-know-what-youre-really-buying/

https://www.ul.com/news/residential-security-container-standard-revised

 

[Charlie98]

Ah...

 

[CopperClad]

Makes sense, doors have two layers of metal to go through. The door, and then the door panel. I have not attempted to determine if the door is thicker than the body.

This is something I read in a newspaper. It was about some vintage, like 1900 or before safe that someone had, and the locksmith that opened the thing talked about what he found inside. The locksmith claimed that occasionally he encountered vintage safes that had a bottle of nitro glycerine positioned behind or in front the lock. The idea was, if a thief tried to bash the lock in with a sledge, the nitro would go off! I assume that would discourage safe thieves.

The good ole days when robbers and thieves were not considered as oppressed people.

Nitro, no. Tear gas yes.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

2 of my hand gun safes have digital locks. But they also will open with a vending machine style key. I have 2 with the finger print thing too. But they will let anyone open it. So no battery in them. I use a key.

 

[Jim Watson]

A company vault here had the "War Gas" warning on the door.
As I recall from previous threads, it was probably chloropicrin, a nasty WW1 tear gas.

My safe, uh RSC, has dual locks, keypad and dial. The keypad is quick but the dial is more durable. I open via dial about once a week to keep the combination turns in my head.

 

[zdc1775]

A crazy reason for delrin wheels. A requirement that must have been created by security personnel who read too many James Bond Secret Agent man novels. Who has a portable X ray machine they can station around an 800 lb plus safe? Just pick up safe and move till the X Ray image is perfect? If the evil doers have physical possession of the safe, why not use a grinding wheel, sled hammer or oxy-actelyene torch or open the thing. Or, hire a locksmith who will have the thing open in ten minutes. You would think Dr Evil has a locksmith on speed dial.

It is a strange requirement but it's part of the Navy lock program requirement for certain SCI storage requirements.

But even then they don't exactly fail everyday. Last one we had fail at our facility was originally installed on the container in 1979, it failed in 2017 so not a bad run.

And the newer X series locks are much better quality and have a service cycle in the hundreds of thousands. Even with that I would still prefer an S&G 8410 or 8415

 

[herrwalther]

My safe, uh RSC, has dual locks, keypad and dial. The keypad is quick but the dial is more durable. I open via dial about once a week to keep the combination turns in my head.

Did yours come that way or did you add it later? My RSC is digital but I want to add a mechanical dial as a backup. The digital pad cannot be beat for speed but I don't like electronics standing between me and firearms without a mechanical way in.

 

[epags]

Just for laugh and giggles. I bought a home in 1979 and the realitor showed me it had a hidden in-floor safe. But no combination.
I went to the local hardware store that sold that model floor safe. The salesman gave me the default combination and the right-left procedure. The default did not work but with my kid's toy stethoscope I would lay on the floor after everyone had gone to bed and try to hear the tumbers fall. It worked. I contacted the safe company and learned that the price they would charge was way beyond my budget. As an engineer I analyized the combo plates and was able to create a new combination. When I sold the house I think I did give the combo to the new owners. Don't laugh that was 43 years ago.

 

[Jim Watson]

Did yours come that way or did you add it later?

Factory installation. An early design, separate keypad and dial. Enter the combination on the keypad, turn the dial to a stop as though completing the combination there, turn the handle.

I have since seen them with all in one but I don't know how they work.

 

[GE-Mini-Gun]

My safe is 20+ years old with electronic lock and other than the battery going out on it a couple times, I've never had an issue with it, which leads me to wonder if it's all urban legend type stuff...

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

When it came time for me to upgrade my safe I went out of my way to special order a safe with a mechanical dial. No store in my area had one. They were all electronic. Some owners of electronic lock safes are happy with them and some are not. I went with the decision that nest suited my needs.

 

[Jimfern]

I just inherited a safe and am thinking of replacing the spinner with this -
https://www.libertysafe.com/collections/accessories/products/securam-scanlogic-lock

I have owned a smaller different brand safe or residential what-you-may-call-it with a digital lock for over 20 years and haven't had any problems with it so I'm comfortable with the technology.