Charles Daley AR15?

[12Pump]

Just got back from my LGS where they had a Charles Daley Defense CCD-15 AR type rifle. It is used and is priced at $775, and has a carry handle with site in it, plus the front site, 16" barrel, plastic handguard with a bottom rail and 2 more rails on the left and right side toward the forward end of the handguard. Includes 2 mags, and a case.

One thing I noticed is that the mag doesn't drop freely when the mag released is pressed. I mentioned it to the owner and he said that the previous owner used it very little, so it's still tight for that reason. But the mags always dropped free easily on all other ARs that were brand new that I've ever handled.
The shop closes in 1/2 hours which is too late for me to run back there today. I originally had much longer to do a bit of research, but my computer froze up. Thought my hard drive died. It's happened before. But anyway, I won't be able to go back for it today, which was my plan because the owner said that's it's currently being advertised on ebay but doesn't have any bids yet. He said if it gets any bids, then he couldn't sell it to me. The auction ends tomorrow, so I could still buy it then if nobody buys it at the last minute on ebay.

I did google searches looking for reviews on this gun, but can hardly even find any mention of it! Is anyone here familiar with Charles Daley and whether or not their guns are good, namely the CDD-15 AR rifle? I've heard of the company before, so I'm surprised not to be able to find it on google.

EDIT: I'd also like to mention that I asked the owner if he could special order me a S&W M&P15 Sport. He said he could and would charge me $660.

 

[Sam Cade]

Is anyone here familiar with Charles Daley and whether or not their guns are good, namely the CDD-15 AR rifle?

I seem to recall Kassnar stating that their ARs were sourced from Doublestar.

I've heard of the company before, so I'm surprised not to be able to find it on google.

In 1976, Sloan's sold the Charles Daly trademark to Outdoor Sports Headquarters Inc. (OSHI), a sporting goods wholesaler in Dayton, Ohio. In 1996, OSHI was itself sold to another firearm wholesaler, Jerry's Sport Center in Forest City, Pennsylvania.

Shortly thereafter, the brand was acquired by K.B.I., Inc. of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which expanded the import line to include semi-auto and pump-action shotguns and 1911-style pistols and re-christened the company as Charles Daly, The Shooting Sports Specialist.

In 2008, KBI formed a new division of the company named Charles Daly Defense to manufacture and market the hugely popular AR-15 type semi-automatic carbines and rifles for law enforcement, target shooting and home defense. In a departure from the tradition of selling only imported firearms, Charles Daly Defense AR-15's were 100% manufactured in the United States.

A letter from Michael Kassnar posted on the Charles Daly Website on January 29, 2010 indicated that Charles Daly and KBI were going out of business and closing their doors effective January 29, 2010.

As of the SHOT Show held in Las Vegas in January, 2012, Charles Daly and CD DEFENSE have announced their return to the US market with distribution by Trans World Arms LLC of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

In September 2012, Samco Global Arms, Inc (S.G.A.I.) located in Miami, FL, acquired the Charles Daly trademark and is currently importing firearms under the Charles Daly brand for the US market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Daly_firearms

 

[aka108]

Who isn't making AR types today or having someone else make them with their name stamped on?

 

[hatt]

They are no longer in business but they are pretty good guns. I'd try another mag, that's the likely culprit. It's going to take a lot of mag changes to open up a tight magwell. Can't listen to gun shop owners.

 

[back40]

they were making pretty decent guns with nice options before they went belly up.

sounds like your dealer is feeding you a line of bull. definitely try another mag with the CD. depending on what you want to do with it, the sport is fine and plenty of people are more than happy with theirs. colt is a name, yes, but you get what you pay for with their rifles, and it isn't just a rollmark.

 

[12Pump]

they were making pretty decent guns with nice options before they went belly up.

How do you think that it compares to the S&W MP15 Sport for $110 less, brand new? Does the fact that Charles Daley isn't in business affect anything? I kind of wonder if their having trouble staying in business had anything to do with the quality of what they made beforehand.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I'm not sure I'd believe the gun shop owner about much of anything.... Especially since you can't list firearms on Ebay...


I would take the S&W Sport over the CD any day.

 

[Jackal]

If you want an inexpensive AR, go check out PSA (Palmetto State Armory). They simply cannot be beat for the price. Mil Spec rifle for under $700 after transfer. They have revolving sales, so keep an eye out. The Colt's by no means a bad rifle, but it really isnt worth almost double the price of a PSA when they are both using true Mil Spec parts. I would surely pass on the Charles Daly.

 

[12Pump]

I'm not sure I'd believe the gun shop owner about much of anything.... Especially since you can't list firearms on Ebay...

Actually, I don't remember for sure if he said ebay or not. Could have been a different auction.

Ok, so if I did go ahead with the MP15 Sport, is it a pretty straightforward process for him to special order? Do I have to order it for the dealer and have it paid for in advance, or does the dealer take care of all that? I would just want to make sure that it was a new one and came from a "good place". Also, I wouldn't want to use a credit card to order one online myself if I could avoid that (for various reasons).

 

[ugaarguy]

12 Pump, this thread may answer many of your questions - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=243382. None of those corners are cut on a Colt 6920. You absolutely get what you pay for with a Colt.

S&W cuts a few of the non-critical corners to keep the price down on the M&P-15 Sport, but the most critical components are good to go. The M&P-15 Sport is far from stripped down.

Charles Daly Defense offered several Several AR variants. The best was their CDD M4LE model which was close to Colt 6920 Specs on paper. It also had a street price of about $900 when new. I owned one of these, and it was actually built right. Now, however, I wouldn't recommend someone dropping $775 on a used CDD AR when I could get a new M&P-15 Sport with a warranty for $100 less.

The bigger question is, do you have to have the rifle now, or can you wait a bit for something you could get on back order?

 

[12Pump]

12 Pump, this thread may answer many of your questions - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=243382. None of those corners are cut on a Colt 6920. You absolutely get what you pay for with a Colt.

Thank you for that link! I haven't read through it all yet, but from what I saw, it sure looks like it's what I needed!

The bigger question is, do you have to have the rifle now, or can you wait a bit for something you could get on back order?

I can wait. But how long are we talking about? I had assumed that the dealer simply orders it and then it would take a few days for it to arrive. There's no ban-panic going on anymore, so I assume this rifle would be in stock with whatever source my dealer would be getting it from. I've never special-ordered a firearm before, so I'm not familiar with the process. My dealer today said something like that he'd be getting it from a wholesaler.
So are we talking just a few days, weeks, months?

 

[Quentin]

Charles Daly made a darn good AR, especially the M4LE. It wasn't quite Colt or BCM quality but was better than most popular ARs like Bushmaster and DPMS. I suspect it's about the quality of PSA or Spikes, which you could get new for the same price this guy is asking used. Also you could get midlength gas instead of the CDD M4gery carbine length.

A couple years ago I bought a CDD-15 stripped lower for my son in law (who's from Harrisburg, PA so was thrilled to get a hometown rollmark) and it's a high quality receiver with a nicely flared magwell and great finish. Magazines drop freely so definitely try other mags in the rifle you're looking at.

Anyway, nice AR and it's a shame they went out of business, I especially liked their Hi Power clone.

 

[BullfrogKen]

It shouldn't take very long at all. The AR buying binge ended in late spring. A week to 10 days is the longest I'd expect it to take until you're told "it's here, come pick it up." Just ask him; he'll tell you.

It's not so much a special order as it is ordering a standard firearm he just doesn't have in stock. Shops vary their policy on ordering something for their customers. And even the same shop owner might treat customers differently. Someone he knows well and sells often to might not have to put anything down, while a new customer might be asked to put down a 30% non-refundable deposit, just to make sure he doesn't order something in and have the customer change his mind or tell him, "yeah, I found what I was looking for at a gunshow Saturday. I don't need it anymore."

Yes, that does happen. Often.

Again, just ask him what's his policy on ordering, and he'll tell you. It's not unreasonable to be asked for a deposit. It would be a little unreasonable to be asked to pay for it in full before he'll order it.


This dealer is pushing you to buy his used AR because he'll make more money on selling a used gun than selling a new one.

 

[taliv]

do a search. there is a very long thread here with much participation from kassner.

 

[12Pump]

Ok everyone, I'm sure you've all been holding your breath to find out what I ended up doing.

I went to the LGS and brought along a shotgun that I wanted to trade in and I had made up my mind to have the owner order me a S&W M&P15 Sport, with the reason being that it would cost $110 less, be brand new, with warranty and be from a company that was still in business. Plus, I've heard alot of good things about the Sport online. The dealer made a few calls to his wholesalers while I was there and it turned out nobody had one. The owner explained to me that even though ARs are back on the shelves now, there is still a shortage of the bargain priced ones, such as the M&P Sport and DPMS Sporticle.

He then offered to knock another $20 from the Charles Daley since it didn't sell in the online auction he had it advertised with, so I ended up buying it. It came with 2 mags, a soft case with pockets for mags and all the features I mentioned in my first post. He also let me try one of his used AR mags in this rifle to see if it fell free when the mag release was pressed, and it worked! That indicates the problem was with the magazine. He also let me trade the other mag that came with the rifle for one of his used ones so they'd match.

One thing I still don't understand is when I type in Charles Daley model CCD-15 (the model number of this gun) in google, I don't get any matches. Makes me wonder if I have a one-of-a-kind or something.

So what do you think? Good deal?

 

[Quentin]

I think you did all right. It's probably the model below the M4LE but I don't think there was that much difference. I bet if you look harder you can get more specs, barrel, profile, twist, BCG, etc.

Look at a site called Weapon Evolution. They had a very nice review of the M4LE with great pics by Stickman.

Ah, here you go: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?410-Charles-Daly-D-M4LE-Carbine-Guide-and-Review

I'd pay $90 more for the CDD over the Sport. Warranty doesn't bother me much if the rifle is good.

Glad to hear the other mags drop free, I was pretty sure they would. Look at your magwell, it's very nice!

 

[12Pump]

I think you did all right. It's probably the model below the M4LE but I don't think there was that much difference. I bet if you look harder you can get more specs, barrel, profile, twist, BCG, etc.

Look at a site called Weapon Evolution. They had a very nice review of the M4LE with great pics by Stickman.

Ah, here you go: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...ide-and-Review

I'd pay $90 more for the CDD over the Sport. Warranty doesn't bother me much if the rifle is good.

Glad to hear the other mags drop free, I was pretty sure they would. Look at your magwell, it's very nice!

Thank you for that link! I'm still looking through the posting that it leads to and it's a real eye opener! The first thing that struck me was that this is a write-up about the D-M4LE, yet the model number on the side of the rifle in the pictures says CDD-15, exactly the same as mine! The specs he gives near the bottom of the page don't match all of what I have. I don't have a chrome lined barrel, and the barrel isn't stamped with markings showing the twist rate, so I have no idea what it is. Not sure if I have M4 feed ramps either. The stock is a Tapco, rather than CD. It's quite possible that only the lower receiver is CD and the rest of it is a replacement upper.

 

[Quentin]

Well anything's possible, though I hadn't considered a different upper on the CDD-15 lower. Better grill the seller on that to be sure what you have and if he stands behind it. It is worrisome that the stock is Tapco. I hope it's not the case but I'm getting the feeling this is a questionable build using just the CDD-15 stripped lower (like I did for my son in law).

I thought all Charles Daly ARs were chrome lined, M4 feed ramps, M4 profile barrel, carbine length gas. Compare your feed ramps with Stickman's picture and pull off your handguards to see if the barrel info is hidden underneath. Look at the BCG for any info like HP and MP and see if the carrier is semiauto or the longer full auto. Look for an H buffer vs. standard weight, commercial receiver extension, etc.

A parts gun can be very good or very bad, it's time to find out what this is. I am sorry I was so high initially on CDD, I never considered a build instead of a true CDD. Definitely grill the seller as to what it is and what warranty it has.

 

[hatt]

You got a parts gun. Dealer took you.

 

[Quentin]

Hmmm, I'm looking through the linked discussion thread and Charles Daly (maybe Kassner) answers questions. The M4LE has the milspec RE and H buffer while their other models have comspec tubes with standard buffer. I'll be curious to hear what you find out 12pump.

 

[ugaarguy]

the model number on the side of the rifle in the pictures says CDD-15, exactly the same as mine!

The receivers were all marked "CDD-15". Just like all Bushmaster lowers are marked as model "XM-15E2S", and all S&W's are marked simply "M&P-15" regardless of the specific model.

Here's a quick reference on things to check if you feel like beefing up the rifle:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376

Posting pictures of the rifle you bought would also greatly help the folks here to determine what you actually ended up with.

 

[12Pump]

You got a parts gun. Dealer took you.

Great! This is just what I was trying so hard to avoid. I've been doing months of research and asking questions trying to find out what I should buy as a first AR, and I end up getting screwed over by a dealer.

I think I'll be sticking with shotguns after this.

I'll post some pictures as soon as I get home later today....

 

[ugaarguy]

You got a parts gun. Dealer took you.

We don't know that for sure. Let's wait on pics and more info.

 

[Jackal]

The dealer made a few calls to his wholesalers while I was there and it turned out nobody had one. The owner explained to me that even though ARs are back on the shelves now, there is still a shortage of the bargain priced ones, such as the M&P Sport and DPMS Sporticle.

I just love how so many dealers are set in their ways. "Nope, my 2 distributors dont have them, so I cant get them and they dont exist". I have heard this far too many times in the past. If your an 01 FFL dealer, you CAN get one, just maybe not from your 1 or 2 middle men. Think outside the box and grab a new customer. Here, at least 5 places with M&P Sports in stock, all on one webpage, amazing. http://www.slickguns.com/product/smith-wesson-mp15-sport-556mm-magpul-mbus-flip-sight-59999

Just wanna slap lazy, complacent FFL's sometimes.

 

[12Pump]

I just love how so many dealers are set in their ways. "Nope, my 2 distributors dont have them, so I cant get them and they dont exist". I have heard this far too many times in the past. If your an 01 FFL dealer, you CAN get one, just maybe not from your 1 or 2 middle men. Think outside the box and grab a new customer. Here, at least 5 places with M&P Sports in stock, all on one webpage, amazing. http://www.slickguns.com/product/smi...ip-sight-59999

Just wanna slap lazy, complacent FFL's sometimes.

I see. So it turns out I could have gotten a brand new Smith & Wesson for $90 less with a warranty and original and superior parts after all. Nice to know.

Oh, and when I bought it, the dealer pointed out that it has been fired very little, as evidenced by the lack of scratching a wear on the bolt. He said that it probably isn't even broken in, so it might have a few hiccups when I take it out to shoot. Translation: Expect it to jam.

We don't know that for sure. Let's wait on pics and more info.

I'll get those pics posted and see what everyone thinks. I've already taken them and they include the bolt carrier after I took it out. Want to know if it's "properly staked" or not. Seems to be. No chrome-lining anywhere to be found, however.

Pictures will arrive in just a few hours.

BTW, I'd like to point out that I really appreciate the support here. It's been kind of demoralizing to first hear how great the AR is, then do months of asking and researching, then finally putting out the money for the most expensive gun I've ever bought, then finding out I even MAY have gotten something slapped together with cheap parts and may not even be safe to shoot (why else did the previous owner want to get rid of it after shooting it so little, and now the dealer couldn't even sell it and wanted it gone so bad as to lower the price for me--first from $800 to $770 to $750?). If this is the case, then the ideas of having it as a "Post-Collapse America" gun OR investment gun would both be done.