Charles Daley AR15?
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Jackal
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Looks like an HBAR barrel. While I may certainly be very wrong, it has the look of a parts bin rifle (cheap goodies added to make it more appealing). I have a hunch CD didnt use any HBAR barrels. Does the stock have the CD logo on it?
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ugaarguy
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Well, it has a proper F height front sight base. The M4 feed ramps are properly cut and were finished after the cut. The carrier key is also very well staked. Those are all good signs. That looks like a mid length gas system upper as well. This may not be as bad as you thought.
Do you know how to take the bolt out of the carrier to check it for markings? Pop those handguards off and look at the inside of them as far as single, double, or no heat shields. Also, some manufacturers mark the bbl toward the middle. See if there are any marks there and grab a pic if you can, or at least tell us what you find.
Do you know how to take the bolt out of the carrier to check it for markings? Pop those handguards off and look at the inside of them as far as single, double, or no heat shields. Also, some manufacturers mark the bbl toward the middle. See if there are any marks there and grab a pic if you can, or at least tell us what you find.
No. Just Tapco USA. Also, the grip says, "Lone Star Ordinance" on one side and "Stowaway 2" on the other side. I just noticed how it has a very hard to open door on the bottom that reveals a little compartment inside the grip. Nothing was inside.
I took the bolt out of the receiver and have it pictured. Are you referring to something else? Also, how do I remove the handguard? I took a good look at it and can't figure it out. I sure hope special tools aren't needed, since I don't have any.
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ugaarguy
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Handguard Removal - you don't need a tool. You can use your hands or even use the handles on a pair of channel lock pliers to grip the delta ring.
Bolt Carrier Disassembly
Bolt Carrier Disassembly
Jackal
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One thing predominately forces me to think this is a parts bin gun: The Tapco stock. No one in sane mind is going to replace the (nearly identical, but higher quality) factory unit with a Tapco. Also, that grip looks like an old parts bin grip, any new rifle is likely to be wearing a newer style grip, Magpul, BCM, etc. Between that grip, barrel and stock, its yelling parts bin, not factory. Dont like being the bad guy here, just my opinion.
ugaarguy:
These videos are loading slowly on my laptop. I saw the one about the handguard and don't understand what he was doing since most of what he did was positioned away from the camera. So I'm supposed to use something to grip the delta ring, and from that point, I'm a little lost. It looked like he was just prying the handguard apart with a screwdriver, but I couldn't see that part. I'm not sure what part gripping the delta ring plays.
How much of the bolt did you want me to take apart? In the video, they show taking the bolt out of the carrier, but I didn't see any markings on it.
I have the bolt apart and don't see any marking at all. Is there a particular place you thought there would be markings of some kind?
These videos are loading slowly on my laptop. I saw the one about the handguard and don't understand what he was doing since most of what he did was positioned away from the camera. So I'm supposed to use something to grip the delta ring, and from that point, I'm a little lost. It looked like he was just prying the handguard apart with a screwdriver, but I couldn't see that part. I'm not sure what part gripping the delta ring plays.
How much of the bolt did you want me to take apart? In the video, they show taking the bolt out of the carrier, but I didn't see any markings on it.
I have the bolt apart and don't see any marking at all. Is there a particular place you thought there would be markings of some kind?
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ugaarguy
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12 Pump, getting the bolt out the carrier is all. Usually HPT / MPI bolts are marked MP or MPI. That's not a huge deal. Now that you have it field stripped you can clean and lube it. 
On the handguards the Delta ring slips over a little flange holding them on at the rear. Just use something to hold the delta ring down, and pop the handguards off one half at a time. In the video he's just using the screwdriver to help separate the two halves. That's it.
On the handguards the Delta ring slips over a little flange holding them on at the rear. Just use something to hold the delta ring down, and pop the handguards off one half at a time. In the video he's just using the screwdriver to help separate the two halves. That's it.
No MP or MPI or anything else on it.
I got the top part of the handguard off only. What a pain in the you-know-what that was! Whoever designed this thing deserves a kick in the butte. I also need to get the bottom off too in order to remove the bottom rail because it hurts my hand. Here's a pic of the inside. As expected, no markings on the barrel.
EDIT: Finally got the bottom half off. Still no markings anywhere on the barrel. What should I conclude about this?
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Quentin
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I see. So it turns out I could have gotten a brand new Smith & Wesson for $90 less with a warranty and original and superior parts after all. Nice to know.
Oh, and when I bought it, the dealer pointed out that it has been fired very little, as evidenced by the lack of scratching a wear on the bolt. He said that it probably isn't even broken in, so it might have a few hiccups when I take it out to shoot. Translation: Expect it to jam.
BTW, I'd like to point out that I really appreciate the support here. It's been kind of demoralizing to first hear how great the AR is, then do months of asking and researching, then finally putting out the money for the most expensive gun I've ever bought, then finding out I even MAY have gotten something slapped together with cheap parts and may not even be safe to shoot (why else did the previous owner want to get rid of it after shooting it so little, and now the dealer couldn't even sell it and wanted it gone so bad as to lower the price for me--first from $800 to $770 to $750?). If this is the case, then the ideas of having it as a "Post-Collapse America" gun OR investment gun would both be done.
While it may not have the parts a real Charles Daly has, honestly it's still likely your AR will work fine and be safe to shoot. It's very common to piece together an AR and usually they turn out at least all right, sometimes even great.
Definitely post those pictures, especially of the upper receiver group. Hopefully it will be possible to ID a few things. If you can get a buddy to help you pull the handguards it's likely you'll find markings to ID the barrel.
It might not hurt to go back to the dealer and tell him you know this ISN'T a Charles Daly as he claimed. Ask him what parts were used, especially which upper and BCG. He should know this, he listed it on an auction site! (Ask for a link to his ad, too.)
Good luck!
ETA:
Whoops! I missed the second page.
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peacemaker45
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No offense, but if you got taken, (a question I'll leave to those who know more about the ins and outs of the AR platform than I,) you at least partly did it to yourself. You went to one dealer, about whom you ought to have had at least some questions, and were too impatient to follow through on the advice you'd been given, and the plan you'd formed. Right, and right now, are seldom the same thing.
It's plenty easy to get taken in the world of shotguns, too, if you don't learn to overcome the urge to get out your wallet every time you're exposed to the smell of gun lube.
Quentin
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I agree, this doesn't look bad so far. Nice that you got a midlength barrel, definitely looks midlength (and Charles Daly never made a middy, so we at least know what it isn't). You might have got a $750 rifle after all.
Getting the handguards back on isn't easy either. Don't be in a hurry to put them back on, first take lots of pictures of the barrel. Oh, does the barrel get thin under the handguards (government profile)? Get a strong buddy to help put them on!
As far as the unmarked barrel that is slightly unusual, I'm not sure which barrel makers don't mark their barrels. I'd look again very close with good light.
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As I mentioned before, I have been researching ARs and asking questions for quite some time. Look at my previous postings on this site. I asked so many questions that people were starting to get tired of it. I tried to find out what to look for in an AR, which features were really necessary, which brands to stay away from, and which guns were good for a first time AR owner who wanted one for particular purposes. Generally, I was told that just about any AR of modern manufacture is going to be good and that I should just get one, shoot it and enjoy.
I also didn't go to just one gun shop. I've been to all the shops in town, repeatedly. In a past thread I recently posted, I was asking about a couple used Bushmasters that were available. I ended up passing on those.
In addition, I started this thread specifically asking about the Charles Daley and was told that when they were in business, they made good guns. So why should I have believed that this one wasn't what it was claimed to be?
Jackal
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Found the auction. It has to be a fake. Please notice the front triangle handguard retainer on the carbine.
So, non spec barrel, Tapco stock, cheapo carry handle and triangle handguard retainer.
Its most assuredly a parts rifle.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=368089362#PIC
So, non spec barrel, Tapco stock, cheapo carry handle and triangle handguard retainer.
Its most assuredly a parts rifle.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=368089362#PIC
@Jackal: Well I'll be darned! That's it alright! Funny that he had it in his store for $800 and was going to charge me $770 while the auction was in play while charging $750 for gunbroker customers. At least I ended up with it for the $750 price. Glad I didn't pay a dime more. I didn't know that it had a 20 round magazine. I thought it was 30. It actually came with 2 of them which I swapped for 2 other used ones he had because the one in the gun didn't fit right. Their brands are La Belle, inc. and Chartered Industries (Singapore). I don't even have ammo for it to find out the capacities.
BTW, what did you mean about front triangle handguard retainer? Is there anything odd about that part?
@ Mat, not doormat: Click on the link to that auction and check the seller's feedback. All positive! So it can't be said that I should have known not to trust him. Other people have obviously had good luck.
@Quentin: I took another look at the barrel, using a bright light. Looking straight-on with a bright light, I see nothing. But I noticed that if I shine the light at a steep angle to the barrel, there is very fine writing. It says: CMMG MPC 5.56 NATO 1/7. What do the first 2 sets of letters mean? I know what the rest means.
Also Quentin: I took another picture for you of the barrel with both handguard pieces off so you can see the entire barrel. Also, I forgot to mention that the handguards have silver metal inserts inside of them. See pic in post #36. Are those heat shields?
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ugaarguy
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It means go buy a lottery ticket. CMMG is the manufacturer. MP is Magnetic Particle, and C is Chrome - as in hard chrome lined. They've now switched to Cold Hammer Forged bbls, but you still got a very good upper.
ETA: Here's the factory link - http://www.cmmginc.com/product_p/55bd382.htm - that upper sells at online vendors for $700+ new when they're in stock.
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Jackal
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^^ Parts rifle for sure, but it has a good quality barrel.
ugaarguy
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Based on the carrier key staking and the matching of the M4 feed ramps between the bbl extension & the receiver itself I'm pretty confident that's a CMMG factory complete upper that was put onto the lower. Based on the Samco grip and Tapco stock on a CDD lower that half is obviously a mixed parts assembly as others have already noted.
12Pump, you didn't get the deal of the century, but you didn't get hurt bad (if at all) either.
12Pump, you didn't get the deal of the century, but you didn't get hurt bad (if at all) either.
Wow, this sure comes as a surprise. Companies like CMMG are a mystery to me since I've never shopped for a separate upper before. The upper in the link you showed me sure looks like what I have. It shows a price of $829.95. You said $700. Is that due to the difference between MSRP and dealer price?
Hey, what do you think my upper is worth right now by itself, being secondhand and almost new condition (assuming I wanted to start swapping parts and becoming a "builder")?
BTW, the dealer specifically told me that this barrel is NOT chrome lined. It is easy to know one way or the other? I shined a light up one end of the barrel while looking down the other, and I can't tell it apart from my Ruger 10/22 bore.
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ugaarguy
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Well, the dealer also represented the rifle as a factory CDD rifle. The easy way is to call CMMG and ask them based on the markings on your bbl. As far as I know CMMG has never offered a 1:7 twist bbl that wasn't chrome lined though.
Exactly.
That's hard to gauge. CMMG did switch to cold hammer forging for manufacturing their chrome lined bbls, so people are going to desire the new CHF bbls more. So, it's a conventionally rifled bbl, but it's still 1:7 twist (and almost certainly hard chrome lined). I'd keep that upper.
If you just wanted to change stuff out for peace of mind and knowing what components are in the rifle you could rebuild the lower with a PSA lower build kit. Then just keep the other parts as spares.
That really makes me wonder about something. If this gun was sold to the dealer as "used" as the dealer told me, then wouldn't the original owner have known that it has a new, and probably more expensive upper on it, since that owner would have had to put it on there himself, and would have certainly wanted to mention that fact to the dealer when trading it in? If I were someone who took a Charles Daley rifle and then swapped the upper for something much better, then barely used it and decided to trade it in, I definately would be sure to mention this to the dealer. Obviously, he didn't. Otherwise, the dealer would have been sure to point out in the auction ad or to me that the upper is much better than the original. He even specifically told me that the bore was not chrome lined. Being a CMMG, it probably is. So he obviously didn't know it was a CMMG.
I mean, if you bought a DPMS rifle and then swapped the upper for a Colt upper, then fired only a few shots and then traded it in, wouldn't you mention the upgrade to the dealer so you'd get a fair price for what you have, and what you put into it?
@ugaarguy (and everyone else): Thank you for all your help (and patience)! I'm going to sleep easier tonight!
Quentin
Member
Glad you were able to find the barrel marking. And that this has turned out to be a good barrel. I also believe the C in MPC stands for chrome lined. And back to an earlier comment, the triangular end caps that hold the handguards are not uncommon with a midlength barrel - they would be unusual with carbine length gas. Besides CMMG, ArmaLite, BCM and PSA midlengths have triangular end caps. Daniel Defense is unusual in that it uses round end caps for midlength. Almost everyone uses round end caps for carbine length gas.
The barrel does slim down under the handguards so this is a government profile, not an HBAR as described earlier. And yes the silver inserts are heat shields.
Your question about the magazines, if they're short and straight they're 20 round. If they're longer with a curve to the front they're 30rd.
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12Pump, I think this AR will function just fine and will last a long time. By hook or crook, you dun good!
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Quentin
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It's hard to say. Since 2010 there have been some screaming deals on uppers like this. It wouldn't have been hard to catch a deal and get one for $500 or less, including BCG and charging handle. The lower could have been built for $200 (I bought my Charles Daly stripped lower in 2011 and haven't seen them for sale since then.)
I doubt the dealer saw the CMMG markings so didn't know what the upper was. No way to know what the previous owner knew about the rifle. Anyway, it's fair to say you got a $750 rifle. Now go shoot it to be sure!
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