Cheap gun now or $$ later?

[Monkeyleg]

As I've mentioned a few times in past threads, for the past year I've been working on a website for a friend's gun shop. The site keeps growing, and the number of hours I've been putting in can be measured in the hundreds.

At the outset, I offered to do a site for him as a favor. Now that he's added pages and the time involved is so great, he's said that he has to find a way to reimburse me. I told him a Kimber Eclipse Target would be a good trade (even with that, he'd be getting a great deal). But this summer has been slow for business, and the site isn't at the point yet where it's generating money for him. So the Kimber will have to wait for a bit.

The other day, though, a Spanish-made, wood-stocked CETME on his wall caught my eye. It's a consignment, with a tag of a bit over $400 on it (my friend gets 20% on consignments). I know that's high for the rifle, but it's something that would be fun to shoot. Besides, I've never owned one.

So, would you grab the CETME now, or wait for a more expensive gun? Or would you try to get both out of the deal? (I know the latter is the obvious answer, but may not be realistic).

 

[blades67]

Make the deal that you want, then put it in writing.

 

[jsalcedo]

Take whatever you can while you can get it.

I had a similar deal with web/computer work for a copy place.

They said they would reimburse me in advertising pamphlets and business cards.

They guy who made the deal took off on me and I was out over $600.

 

[willyjixx]

heck id take the rifle!

 

[Ed Brunner]

The CETME is on my list.

Unless it comes with a bunch of magazines or such it is probably about $100 too high. Still, a CETME in the hand is a whole lot better than a promised Kimber. I would 'gotiate for a lower price and take it. From all I hear they are a fun gun.
See http://home.comcast.net/~cetme/.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I told him a Kimber Eclipse Target would be a good trade (even with that, he'd be getting a great deal). But this summer has been slow for business, and the site isn't at the point yet where it's generating money for him. So the Kimber will have to wait for a bit.

Speaking strictly as a marketing and advertising guy of many years' experience: if you don't keep a log of your billable hours, you don't have billable hours, and the same goes for volunteer hours.

 

[digex]

Well, since you started it as a favor, I'd say take the CETME. Times are tight for some folks and if he's a buddy of yours and that's what he thinks he can do, then take him up on it. Maybe later, the fact that you weren't trying to be greedy and that you helped him out when he needed it will be remembered and he'll take care of you then. I'm a firm believer that "what comes around, goes around". You get what you give and when you help friends, they'll help you.

 

[Mark Tyson]

Take the CETME. It has problems, but it can be a fine rifle with a little TLC and some gunsmithing if necessary. Save your friend some dough.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Well, fellow TRH members, things have taken a weird turn. Standing Wolf knows of what he speaks.

As mentioned, I have hundreds of hours into this site. In fact, I've cataloged at least 300+ hours into my friend's site. Today he asked me to create a new page for Bushmaster rifles and another for Benchmade knives. Benchmade gave him a CD with acceptable photos of the knives, but the photos from Bushmaster are absolutely unacceptable. So, I'll have to shoot new photos of the rifles, plus do some nice shots of the limited-edition Benchmades that the shop carries. The two new pages (along with detail pages of each model) will probably take me two to three days to complete, not including the time involved to shoot the rifles and the limited-edition knives.

So far, no problem, right?

Wrong.

During discussions with my friend, he again mentioned finding some way to reimburse me for my time. I mentioned the consignment CETME, and suggested that the rifle would be a reasonable compensation for the work I've done so far. (300 hours x $50/hour = $15,000). His cost on the rifle is roughly $350.

His response was that he needed to get his hands on a used CETME that his shop had bought used, so that his out-of-pocket wasn't as high.

Huh? The only reason I mentioned the CETME was that it was like new, cost him next to nothing, and I thought was an extremely reasonable "down payment" on the hundreds of hours of work I've done for him. As one who has always believed in the honor of a handshake agreement, I was really floored.

Right now it's pretty apparent to me that neither the cheap CETME nor the Kimber Eclipse are going to come my way.

I do believe in honor, and I had told him I would do the Bushmaster and Benchmade pages, so I will do them. After that, my inclination is to send him a contract for any further changes, detailing the price per hour for all changes. He wants to add a shopping cart to his site for the Benchmade knives, and I know that will take me at least a week to get up and running properly.

Sorry for the long kvetch but, if it were you and your friend in this deal, what would you say?

I'd your opinions on what I should do with my friend. And please don't say I should shoot him; he has 100 times more guns than I do.

 

[digex]

OK, so maybe your buddy's a cheapskate. You should just sit down with him and shwo him the numbers. Explain to him what you've done and what remains to be done. Look at the finances involved over the entire project. If he decides that he still doesn't want to do the right thing, let him look for services elsewhere, he'll be calling you within a week.
I still believe in helping folks out, but sometimes you gotta draw a hard line. Good luck.

 

[shane184]

As a photographer I know that just taking the few photos that are needed would cost more than the Cetme if he had to hire someone to do it. I think you need to educate him on the worth of these type of projects and if he doesn't understand he may need to find out the hard way by finding someone else to do it with real world pricing. In the mean time I would put in writing a figure you can live with trade wise. I'm sure it won't equal what you want but at least you get something out of it. The website looks good and is definitely worth some bucks but the way it sounds this guy has no business sense and a great website may not save him. Get what you can while you can before he closes shop and is on to a new venture with you holding an empty bag.

 

[AJ Dual]

Monkeyleg,

I like The Shooters Shop, they have a very nice store, and good selection, and I usually allways get good help there, in fact I live only 7 blocks away.

But the pricing is erratic. I've seen Century put-together CTME's on thier rack for $800, and have seen other stuff that's very farily priced. (Shotgun News +shipping and transfer type of prices)

I really don't know what to tell you, but I've allways had the impression that they keep vacillating between the "good shop", and the "overpriced gouger" type of shop. And I've had this impression for both the new managment and the old owners. Perhaps this attitude is carrying over into the favors and pro-bono work you've done for them.

Personally, I'd try once more to politely point out just how much your site development would have cost a paying customer. Then I'd wrap any loose ends on thier site into some semblance of "completion". Then indeed present them with a contract for any further work they want done.

If they try to find someone to maintain or finish it for pay, they'll realise what an opportunity they blew. Frankly, what you've done so far, 3-4 guns from them would still be the deal of the century in thier favor.

Sometimes friends need to stay friends, and business partners stay business partners.

 

[Bacchus]

I believe that you should be compensated for your work. Now, it sounds like you both came to some sort of an agreement, informal as it was, about your compensation.

And now he has balked at your request for compensation. And asked you to do more work.

Since you mentioned that you want to keep your word, I'd go ahead and do the extra Bushmaster and knife page (s). Then, perhaps you could ask again about compensation.

If he declines for the second time, it's probably time for you to decline to do any more pro bono work...cause that's what it amounts to.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Sorry for the long kvetch but, if it were you and your friend in this deal, what would you say?

"Friends don't treat friends this way."

That is what I would say.

I would not do business with an individual who behaves in this manner toward a friend. I'll be avoiding this site, thanks for the intelligence on the character of this vendor. He gives our sport a bad name by treating you this way.

What you choose to do, is up to you.

Best wishes and safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[Cacique500]

Finish the two promised pages and nicely inform him that ANY changes to the website from here on out will be billed at $xx.xx/hr and have him sign a contract stating that. Have the contract specify when payment to you is due (no longer than monthly).

I think you'll find that once he wants something changed and you won't do it, he'll come around. BTW, do you own the domain name? Are you hosting for him?

My brother is an excellent web designer and went through this with one of his 'side' jobs. Had a few hundred hours in a site and the guy packed up and left (and never paid a cent...even with a contract - brother lost about $6000 - live and learn).