Chicago won't help ex-cops carry guns

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Yes, of course, how silly of me. Since our rights were never infringed incrementally, we can't win them back incrementally, either.

When Missouri got CCW, but St. Louis and that other county said they wouldn't issue the permits, they should have refuse the CCW law because it wasn't everything they wanted. And since St. Louis County didn't eventually cave in and start issuing permits, that would have been justified.

Alaskans had shall-issue CCW ten years ago, and you can't get rights back incrementally, so they clearly didn't switch over to Vermont-style carry with no permit required a couple of years ago.

And no may-issue state has changed into shall-issue state, because if you accept a limited form of a right, even if it's more than you have right now, that limited form is all you can ever achieve. All or nothing!


I repeat. You may be right that this would not be a step toward shall-issue CCW in Illinois, but the Daley Administration does not agree. That is why they're fighting it so hard. They know all about incrementalism.




If you've got a plan for how to achieve shall-issue CCW (or better yet, Vermont-style--all or nothing!) in Illinois without going through intermediate steps like this one, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. I haven't heard a serious plan yet. This is Illinois. There is not one single Illinois CCW permit in existence. Not ONE. In the city of Chicago, there are 4,000 more or less good and decent people who want to carry guns to protect their families, and you're suggesting that I should be joining forces with Dick Daley to deny them that right because they're not fighting hard enough to get it for me. The very fact that they exist--good people in Chicago carrying guns to protect themselves and their families and not shooting people over parking spaces--will be an argument for more civilian CCW. This state and that city desperately need someone we can point to and say "Well, look at these guys. They carry guns, and the streets are not awash in blood."

Some of you from outside Illinois, though well-meaning, don't seem to comprehend how utterly freakish and frightening many people in Illinois find the idea of carrying a gun. They've never known anyone who did it; they think everyone else is just like them. They're shocked to find that there are people who even want to carry guns who aren't gangsters.
 
I'm against special classes of citizens too. That disgusts me deeply but I do believe the more guns out there in honest hands the better. Even if it is only 4000 ex-cops. Blood will flow from the criminals and they will learn fast. That's the whole point isn't it? To make the place safer? It might not be as safe as with general issue, but still safer to some degree.

Once the crime improvement from these 4000 permits is seen perhaps the people of Chicago will demand more? Licensing ex-cops sounds like a innocuous first step to me yet even that is too much for those who would defend evil doers? Amazing!
 
Some of you from outside Illinois, though well-meaning, don't seem to comprehend how utterly freakish and frightening many people in Illinois find the idea of carrying a gun. They've never known anyone who did it; they think everyone else is just like them. They're shocked to find that there are people who even want to carry guns who aren't gangsters.

I think Don Guinn realy nailed it there, as far as our getting CCW in Illinois. Even with 46 states having some form of CCW on the books the majority of people are totaly ignorant of that fact. I think we need somehow to educate people about CCW being commonplace in most of our neighboring states: Indiana, Kentucky and now Missouri. I know gun owners that put themselves in jepordy when they go out of state with a handgun in the glove compartment, just in case it is needed. They have no idea how easy it is to be legal by getting a non-resident CCW from any one of several states. I realise it won't help while in Illinois but my wife and I are safe and legal when traveling over most of the country. She has Pennsylvania and Utah, I have Pennsylvania, Utah, New Hampshire and Florida.
Jim.
 
Standing Wolf said:
Hey, I'm an ex-advertising guy, so I should get extra-special treatment, too, shouldn't I?
Click to expand...

That depends. If you were the one that came up with the "I just saved a ton of money on my car insurance" crap, I got your special treatment... :D
 
If the retired police in Illinois don't even need guns, surely the average joe doesn't either. Or such will be the arguement when we try to get ccw for everyone.

Its a step backwards to be restricting anyone's concealed carry rights. We need to concentrate on expanding them, not taking a childish stance of if I can't, they can't either.
 
Soybomb said:
If the retired police in Illinois don't even need guns, surely the average joe doesn't either. Or such will be the arguement when we try to get ccw for everyone.

Its a step backwards to be restricting anyone's concealed carry rights. We need to concentrate on expanding them, not taking a childish stance of if I can't, they can't either.
Click to expand...

Guess you never lived in Illinois. Maybe you would change your mind if you knew how the Chicago Police operated. Ask some up their about the cage units. Guess your understanding of the 2nd is different then mine
 
Atticus said:
Hey, I'm all for it. If the citizens of Chicago can't be armed, than why should ex cops? Current Chicago Cops should be disarmed next. Before you know it, the Gangsta's will be turning in weapons and everyone will be singing Kumbaya.
Click to expand...

I Agree!!!
 
lostone1413 said:
Guess you never lived in Illinois. Maybe you would change your mind if you knew how the Chicago Police operated. Ask some up their about the cage units. Guess your understanding of the 2nd is different then mine
Click to expand...
Actually I've lived in illinois for 24 years, including right now. I fail to see how taking concealed carry from police will show people why the genereal public needs it.

Illinois gun laws suck. We need to change the laws to allow more people to carry concealed. To work to change them so that no one can carry concealed is unproductive at best, damaging to the hope of shall issue at worst.

Do you propose it will be easier to convince anti's that the general populace needs to carry after retired chicago police loose the privilege?
 
Mongo the Mutterer said:
You might be able to get away with it .... your name Daley perchance??

I was for disarming the Chicago Cubs, too. Take their bats away. Then I thought, ah well, they can't hurt anybody with them anyway... :evil:
Click to expand...


As a White Sox fan, I really like that statement!

Kidding aside, I'd like to see the Cubs finally win one.

The government running that city really needs to go.
 
got you in Illinois by a few years over 50 for me. The way they ran the cage unit no the shouldn't get special treatment
 
Standing Wolf said:
Hey, I'm an ex-advertising guy, so I should get extra-special treatment, too, shouldn't I?
Click to expand...


Hey! Me Too!!!

I'm ex-Navy, rangemaster, small arms instructor.

I've sent more rounds downrange in a WEEK than most DEPARTMENTS do in a year!

How come I don't get 50 state CCW?

Huh? :evil:
 
The police in this country are REALLY going to hit the roof when we start doing like some European countries. You can have your weapon while on duty, but once you leave for the day, it stays at the station.

So just imagine that you've spent all day arresting felons, and then have to go home unarmed that night.
 
I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO SUPPORT LEGAL CONCEALED CARRY FOR LEOs IF IT IS NOT AN OPTION FOR LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS!
incremental or not, I don't give a damn. Sorry Don.
I know some good folks that carry in defiance of the laws (for the record-not me.)
I am armed when appropriate and legal.
My daughter lives in the city of Chicago and I have provided her with every legal option for her defense.
Not all Illinois citizens and certainly not all Chicago residents are in agreement with our current state laws.
 
So tell me Don, and others, do you have any examples of LEO only "incrementalism" leading to civillian carry?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but what you are describing is nothing more than creating a class based society. Unless you're one of "them" then no ccw for you! Some people really are more equal than others, you know. Look I fell for the the dirty lies from the FOP and others too many times already. I stood side by side with them to support this nationwide LEO carry with the knowledge that they believed the basic principal you are spouting here. Then the lying bastards spoke out against concealed carry here in droves. Yeah, my sympathy bone is a little arthritic these days.


I.C.
 
Folks, you're still approaching this from an emotional, personal point of view. "If Billy gets cake, I get cake too! If I don't get cake, then don't nobody get cake!"

It's not about whether you trust the FOP or like the FOP. It's not about "creating" any class-based anything. It's about taking a cold, objective look at where we stand and where we want to be. If doing what is best for Illinois citizens who want their rights to be respected also benefits the FOP, that's OK with me. I don't care.

FACT:
Right now, Illinois has no concealed carry and no prospect of gaining it in the foreseeable future unless the political situation changes drastically. I think we all agree on that.

FACT:
The goal is fairly unrestricted shall-issue concealed carry in Illinois.

QUESTION:
What are the obstacles standing between where we are now and where we want to be, and how can we plan to overcome those obstacles?

Now, in my opinion, the single biggest obstacle in our path is that the public in Illinois, taken as a whole, is generally either against us or on the fence. Very few are really on our side. Yes, I know, "outside Chicago" and "but, downstate. . . ." Well, the reality is that Chicago exists and it dominates our state and we aren't going to wish it out of existence. We need to turn at least part of the population of Chicago to our way of thinking to have any chance in Illinois. Up until now, state RKBA organizations have essentially ignored everything north of I-80. About the only ones really pushing our agenda in Chicago are Concealed Carry Inc., and much as I love John Birch for doing that, he can't do it by himself anymore.

Also in my opinion, the biggest reason people are either apathetic or hostile to CCW is that they see it as weird, freakish and paranoid behavior that normal, nice people simply don't do. They don't have the experience of knowing lots of nice and decent people who also carry guns to protect themselves. How do we counter this? By somehow finding a way to give people in Illinois, and particularly people in Chicago, some experience with concealed carry so that they can see what it's like and make an informed decision about whether they'd rather live in a city/state with CCW or without it.


Now, if you think this is not a major obstacle, OK, but please tell me why.
If you think it's a major obstacle, but this is the wrong way to get past it, please show us your proposal so that we may decide whether it would be better than arming 4,000 ex-cops. If you don't have a better idea, you might consider why you feel the need to decry this one.



As for "creating a class-based society," it is to laugh. The police are a "special class" in the eyes of the average "civilian" right now. Passing CCW for them first is not creating a class basis; it is acknowledging the fact that it already exists. It's that class basis that makes it possible that we might succeed at restoring the rights of 4000 ex-cops when we know that we have been utterly unable to do the same for a couple million average Joes.
 
First of all, I used to live in Illinois, so I am familiar with the situation. I have also read your posts and I still do not agree. The “baby steps” approach might stand a chance of working if Illinois were teetering on the edge, but it is not. You are right; there are too many obstacles to even think about CCW in Illinois right now. The first step, as I see it, should be the passage of a law preventing cities, counties, towns, etc. from regulating firearms via home-rule enacted laws. I think this would be a better first incremental step in the right direction than “winning” back the rights of former police officers to carry concealed in the city. If this is not done, CCW legislation would be gutted on the local level if it were ever passed on the state level.

As to why Daley is so against allowing ex-cops to carry in Chicago, I can only venture a guess. Daley does not like the idea of people who are not beholden to him carrying guns

Allowing ex-cops to carry does nothing for the common man or woman in my opinion. It would either slip under the public’s radar screen or inspire comments like “well, he/she used to be a cop so it’s OK.”

The fact that the FOP is involved and not the NRA and/or ISRA tells me that this is a push for rights by the police, for the police. It sure seems like they want to side step the processes you and I are forced to take (membership in NRA, membership in ISRA, writing reps., etc.) and create an exception only applicable for themselves.

I hope the FOP fail and fail miserably in their attempt to secure rights for ex-cops. This will cause the former police officers to get involved politically with groups that represent everyone’s rights if they really want to enact change and carry concealed.
 
Don Gwinn said:
FACT:
The goal is fairly unrestricted shall-issue concealed carry in Illinois.

And reciprocity

*snip*

As for "creating a class-based society," it is to laugh. The police are a "special class" in the eyes of the average "civilian" right now. Passing CCW for them first is not creating a class basis; it is acknowledging the fact that it already exists. It's that class basis that makes it possible that we might succeed at restoring the rights of 4000 ex-cops when we know that we have been utterly unable to do the same for a couple million average Joes.
Click to expand...

A lot of sheep worship celebrities, should there votes count as double? Just because your average idiot views police as some group worthy of wonder doesn't make it so, it simply means we need to spread the truth about the police.

Question for you Don, when was the last time we all gained by giving the cops a special privilege, on the basis we would get it next?

Conversely, how often do we get restrictions added to us, that police are immune to? Fact is, any time the police get a special privilege that we do not get, it only widens the divide, making them even more god-like to everyone, and making them less accountable.

If the cops bust your door down (even if it is a bad bust), you will live longer by not fighting. Why? Because they hold all the cards, which we foolishly entrusted them with.

-They have automatic weapons, you don't.
-They have layouts of your house.
-They have your own tax dollars supporting them.
-They have laws making it illegal for you to shoot them, but ok for them to shoot you.

It all comes down to one thing, one thing you are trying to get more of.


They have special privileges YOU don't, and because of that, you are not free, and as long as they do, you will never be free.
 
Nicely summarized Don G.

Don, that was a great summary of where we are and where we need to wind up sooner or later.

It's good to stand on principle and rattle sabers on our soapbox about constitutional rights, but the reality is that gun laws are changed by shifting the public's perception about guns and the threat versus benefit they represent.

Right now, like it or not, the vast majority of Illinois citizens (Chicago counts too) see guns as a major threat to safety. It took two or three generations of liberal reporting in the Tribune and Sun Times and the major network news shows to get them there. Heck, the majority of Illoinois citizens don't even know someone that owns a gun or shoots regularly. The typical response you'll get is, "Oh, my uncle has a shotgun, I think" or "my grandfather used to go deer hunting".

Look at how quickly attitudes on guns changed during the whole Katrina debacle when all of a sudden people (including gas bag O'Reilly) realized the cops could not or would not be there protect you and yours in a crisis.

In Illinois the general perception right now is, thanks to our media and the overwhelming impact Chicago has on the state, only "paranoid nuts" want to carry guns around with them. For evidence, look at how John Birch was treated by the media a couple years ago at Taste of Chicago when a handful of his guys wore black fanny packs with dummy guns. His whole idea was treated as some kind of "nutcase sideshow".

As much as I agree on the principle of; "Let them go with out protection and see how we all feel". I like the idea of having a lot more pople, thousands of them in Chicago alone, carrying concealed under Daley's nose and against his wishes.

Will that alone push public opinion over the edge? Probably not. But it's a first step in a state that has so far fallen on it's face every time we tried to make progress. The next step may be stories in the Tribune about a retired cop that stopped a mugging at an ATM or a Quikee Mart and saved Apu's life.

Sooner or later a lot more of the public will be open to the obvious facts of 46 other states that have this law and aren't "rivers of blood" and having "traffic shootings over parking spaces". Once public opinion, including Chicago as Don so accurately pointed out, starts to shift we can get where we want to be.

You shift public opinion a couple of ways. First, at the grass roots level. Most of us have no problem letting people know we are shooters and collectors. After the initial shock they see that we really are their neighbors, friends and co-workers and pretty normal people. I have seen the change in people's attitudes as they get to know me over time. I actually had one hard core anti-gun woman I worked with ask me to take her and her husband to the range after six months

The second most effective tool is publicity and media relations to reach large groups of people. That's where Illinois has a problem, I think. The ISRA seems to spend much of its time and money internally focused on who's turn is it to be President and who do we want to let into the ISRA range in Kankakee.

It seems to me that very, very little time is spent on effective media relations, inviting key media people out to the range to see the diversity and quality of gun owners and shooters and to show them that we are their neighbors.

Heck, they don't even seem to do much to unite the trap shooters, that look down their nose at "assault weapons" shooters, and hunters out there. And that should be a pice of cake.

Anyway, that's my .02.
 
Summary of thoughts:

1) Agree with posters who point out that the indoctrinated citizens of IL are the fundamental obstruction to shall issue. The situation is essentially the same as NJ in that regard.

2) This is the main nut to be cracked, via public education initiatives.

3) The LEO carry permit is a red herring that makes no contribution one way or the other towards general civilian carry.

It's not a matter of armed and unarmed classes of society, it's a matter of overall hostility to arms in that society.
 
Grew up in Illinois about 30 miles South of Chicago. The Chicago Police are famous for violating the rights of the commoners. Why would anyone feel they should be armed ahead of us? They come out in favor of every anti gun bill that affects us. Yet they feel they have a right to be armed and not us. Last I studied history the 2nd was put in to give the people away to protect themself against the goverment if need be.Illinois is a lost cause anyway. Look who they put in the Senate.
 
Daley does not like the idea of people who are not beholden to him carrying guns

Right, its about control.

When a controler retires, he goes through the looking glass into the realm of the controlled. He/she is now a civilian.

There are only 2 sides, those with and those without.

The only guns the population see's are in the gangster movies and street hoodlums. So if you have a gun without a uniform to go with it you are seen as a criminal.

Vick
 
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