Chuck Taylor on Competition.

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No, I read it very carefully and saw nothing to disagree with.
It is your other post that concerns me.
And if they are taken by surprise I would place my money on a 16 year old street kid armed with a .25 Raven.
 
Well, so far with what I've read on this thread, most of it has truth in it. I believe what is missing IS the surprise factor. How will someone react when surprised with a confrontation? It's alot different than getting in your car and driving to a combat class or a competition and KNOWING for sure that you have to shoot something that day in a controlled environment. I wish I had the land + finances to start a school. Not that I'm better at any of it, I would just like to have the wherewithal to provide a place for people to train and have a safe, HUGE shooting pit with modular/changeable environments to create different scenarios. Sometimes when a shooter would go through the course, there would be NOTHING to shoot at. Sometimes there would only be one threat. Sometimes a threat of a whole gang similulated. Would make for some interesting observations, eh? I haven't found any place yet that offered that true of a realism to training. Wish I could! It seems that MINDSET is your deadliest weapon, and should be in cooperation with some great training with gun handling too. Well, there's my $0.02
 
Force on Force simunitions is a wake up call- as is any full contact fighting or training. When there is one or more folks literally "hunting" you, it is hard not to get freaked out- even if the guns are just carrying simunitions. I have been through several sim training exercises and every one is a rush. Although I do have to say that being able to put an accurate shot on target, on demand, under pressure and quickly is the decisive event in these encounters. However you choose to get to that level- Do It!

The same goes for full contact martial arts matches. I don't care if it is MMA, boxing, TKD, Muay Thai or ISKA. The first time that you hear that bell and someone throws a full power punch/kick/elbow/knee at you- you will know more about yourself than you did before. I have to admit, the first time it happened I froze. Of course I was 12 and after I got kicked I got mad- I still lost that match, but I never froze again.

I have been shot at and shot at others in anger- thankfully nobody got hurt in either occasion. That all happened before I started competing, so I can't say if it helped or not.
 
And Randy Cain is one of the best 'not famous' instructors working, too. He's good and he has a great reputation among folks 'in the know' but he doesn't get talked about a lot, for some reason I can't fathom.

lpl
 
"Yet there are many who think that competition is the end all towards combat training/proving combat effectiveness and I am glad that a man such as Chuck Taylor has set the record straight."

I've never heard anyone say that. The "end all towards combat training"? That's ridiculous. No one thinks that. It's a straw man.
 
I'd have to see the whole article, but from what was quoted I didn't see Chuck telling people not to compete, or that competition gets people killed in actual fights.

What I do see is him trying to make the point that competition is not a fair representation to an actual fight. I happen to agree with him.


Competition has its merits. For the vast majority of gun owners, competition is the closest they'll come to what fighting with a gun looks like. And that's a good thing. We wouldn't want to live in a world where gunfights were commonplace occurrances. Competition teaches us how to handle a gun safely and competently, in a dynamic environment.

But its not a gunfight.

IPSC and IDPA have rules and constraints that are necessary to ensure fair competition and safe matches. But those rules and constraints don't exist outside a competition.


Analogies are not without weaknesses, but allow me to make one.

Swimming. Some competitive swimmers are very strong swimmers. Some practice every day, and feel as comfortable in the water as on dry land. Some are so good they get college scholarships, and the best find themselves on Olympic teams. But most of them aren't rescue swimmers. And tragically we hear tales of competitive swimmers drowning because they got in over their heads.

No one would dismiss their abilities in a pool. But pools have constraints, and they aren't white water or the open ocean. Were I, my wife, or someone I loved in need of rescue in the water, I'd want a Coast Guard swimmer or a trained lifeguard to go get them, not a competitive swimmer. Jumping 50 feet off a helicopter into 20 foot seas, or wading into white water rapids is not the same as competitive swimming. Nor is the performance anxiety of competition the same as the stress a Coastie feels when he flies out in a hurricane to go rescue the crew from a sinking ship.


Put that same Coastie in a pool against an Olympic swimmer, and he'll get his clock cleaned. Put a competitive swimmer in that raging ocean, and the sort of skills he's perfected becomes a lot less important. A lot of competitive swimmers have found that out when they get in white water, or the open ocean. Some survive to talk about it, and some don't.


Competition teaches the competitor a lot about good gun handling, and quick, effective shooting. I don't see Chuck dismissing that. Neither do I.

I don't think a gold medalist would go have the gall to go up to a rescue swimmer and say to him, "I swim competitively, so I understand and am prepared to do what you do." Think about how a Coastie, or a white water rescue swimmer would think about that sort of comment.

When we suggest to a survivor of a gunfight that competition has prepared us for gunfighting, expect him to think similarly of our comparison.
 
Keep in mind that when you go into a force-on-force scenario you are still not getting a One-To-One understanding of performance issues under surprise. After the waiver, safety brief, putting on the gear, etc., etc., even the best F-o-F is not going to be anything close to the surprise of a real ambush in your everyday environment. We jump through a lot of hoops to try to catch people off-guard in F-o-F Scenarios and often get responses that override typical surprise, startle and fear reactions (which still do occur under proper circumstances) much faster than we see in Dash Camera and other videos. Don't get me wrong, F-o-F is often infinitely better than Competition for gauging ability to apply skills on demand, but it is still not one to one and shouldn't be used as a gauge for timing, etc. when you are truly caught off guard.

Lee L,

FWIW, Mr. Cain told me himself a couple of months ago that he was not interested in more publicity/exposure when I invited him to participate in the Training Log Book project. Apparently, he is happy with the following he has and the business it generates...... which I respect.

-RJP
 
Rob,

That doesn't surprise me. It just happens that I have admired Mr. Cain's quiet professionalism for a good while, and far too many people who should know better think that 'buzz' is all that matters. Because they never heard of someone before, they tend to under-rate that individual. I just wanted to do what I could to correct any misapprehensions in that regard.

Thanks,

lpl
 
Yep, Randy is happy with what he has going on. Unlike many in the industry, he lacks the knack for shameless self-promotion.

It's hard to even get hats and t-shirts from him at the classes as he usually forgets to have them re-printed.

He is the humble Southerner through-and-through, and one of the best kept secrets in the training business.
 
What I do see is him trying to make the point that competition is not a fair representation to an actual fight.
Click to expand...

Indeed. But if so, all he's doing is presenting a straw man argument. Among the competitive shooters I know, including Masters and Grand Masters, I've never heard one make the claim that IDPA/IPSC/Multigun competition is any sort of analog to a gun fight.

Would they?
I don't know.
Could they fall apart when their life is on the line?
Yes they could.
The military/police/dojos of the world are all filled with examples of men who were, "All show and no go." when the stakes become life or death.
You, in fact, are making Taylor's case for him.
You are assuming that great skill and skill alone will assure that a sport shooter- one who has no other training/experience but sport--will assure his/her competence in combat.
And that, my friend, is a dangerous--yet common--assumption.
Click to expand...

Taking this to it's logical conclusion, then how do we really know whether a person will react or lock up in a deadly encounter, regardless of whether they're a competitive shooter or one who's attended defensive shooting classes?

I don't mean that to sound snide. Admittedly, I've had very little formal tactical instruction, so I'm genuinely curious to know how one would train to keep this from happening.

And if they are taken by surprise I would place my money on a 16 year old street kid armed with a .25 Raven.
Click to expand...

Then does this not defeat the classic argument of guns as the original equalizer? If every citizen must train to a Jedi-like level of proficiency with a firearm to be able to effectively defend themselves, then what does that say about all of the data compiled by the likes of John Lott or Gary Kleck showing that most criminals stop what they're doing simply when the intended victim displays a firearm and the willingness to use it?
 
Justin, you hit on the crux of the issue.

Training is great. I've trained with several well-known and respected instructors. It's great to get out there and get as much information in 3 days as you can.

But you have to work on those skills somehow. Short of getting into a gunfight, how do you do that? You have to go out and practice at the range. Very few people are going to go out and simply run drills at the range. Competition is a great way to work on those skills that you were exposed to at the training classes. You just have to be careful not to get caught up in the competition of it all and lose sight of why you're there.

*Can* competition reinforce bad habits? Of course. Does it do so by default? Of course not.

The idea that competing doesn't build valuable skills that can be used in the real world is stupid. Anyone want to take a punch from Mike Tyson? A kick from Mirko Cro-Cop? Let Frank Mir grab ahold of a leg? Hell, get tackled by Refrigerator Perry? Didn't think so.

While competition will not build that warrior or survival instinct or mindset, neither will training classes or anything else. You either have it or you don't, and you're never going to know until you face the elephant.
 
Justin said: . . . all he's doing is presenting a straw man argument. Among the competitive shooters I know, including Masters and Grand Masters, I've never heard one make the claim that IDPA/IPSC/Multigun competition is any sort of analog to a gun fight.
Click to expand...

Not exactly, Justin. Most of the competitors shooting at that level understand that in a match, they're just competiting.

The gun community, and those who compete that don't know the difference, do think those competitions more or less approximates what occurs in a fight.


I can't be specific about this story because I don't have permission to share it. So I'll have to be vague, and I apologize for that.


A fellow we knew in our community spent a career in Army Special Forces. To look at him, he was the most unassuming guy you'd meet or talk to. To put it short and blunt, his demeanor and look could be categorized as "nerdy". He was involved in action he couldn't talk about outside the community, but it involved going places and killing enemies of the United States, doing things no one would read about and he'd get no official recognition for. When he finally retired from the Army, he went to work for the intelligence agency doing the same things he did for the Army in South America.

He had several dozen personal kills.

Knowing people the way this community does, his reputation got him invited to be an adjunct instructor for XXXXXXXXX, one of the best known training facilities, with one of the best known names in the study of gunfighting. He accepted, and taught for while.

He liked to shoot competitively. Upon entering an IPSC match, the person taking registration recognized who he was instructing with, and looked at his classification. He thoughtlessly sneered, "Huh, I would have thought an instructor at XXXXXXXXX would be better than a class C shooter."

This fellow calmly remarked back, "It was always good enough."

That person had no clue what this comment meant. And not being one to brag, he never elaborated.

  1. Mindset
  2. Tactics
  3. Skill
  4. Equipment

You don't need to be a jedi knight. You just have to be willing; trainers can work to develop everything else.

Like I said I didn't read the whole article. But what I come away with is a warning to the gun community to understand the limits of competition on reality. When I see comments assuming that since Quickdraw McGraw is a master class shooter, that's just by God got to give him an edge in a gunfight, I know that message isn't being received.
 
But you have to work on those skills somehow. Short of getting into a gunfight, how do you do that? You have to go out and practice at the range. Very few people are going to go out and simply run drills at the range. Competition is a great way to work on those skills that you were exposed to at the training classes. You just have to be careful not to get caught up in the competition of it all and lose sight of why you're there.

*Can* competition reinforce bad habits? Of course. Does it do so by default? Of course not.

The idea that competing doesn't build valuable skills that can be used in the real world is stupid. Anyone want to take a punch from Mike Tyson? A kick from Mirko Cro-Cop? Let Frank Mir grab ahold of a leg? Hell, get tackled by Refrigerator Perry? Didn't think so.

While competition will not build that warrior or survival instinct or mindset, neither will training classes or anything else. You either have it or you don't, and you're never going to know until you face the elephant.
__________________
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I was going to post a long diatribe about building skill etc, but it's already been said.

I wonder who would stand a better chance at achieving Mr. Taylor's combat master standards: A) A competition shooter B) A non-competition shooter.


I know who my money would be on...
 
Chuck Taylor IS a world class shooter and a fine instructor (as others have told me). But I do think his statement is a bit of a broad-brush. For my 10+ years of "serious" gun activity, I have participated in IDPA and other events, but looked down on them as "not real" and cautious that doing them too much would "get me killed." But after listening to some other viewpoints I have had a change of heart.

Recently, Jim Cirillo's old partner, Bill Allard, (who was in many gunfights in his years as an LEO) was recently interviewed by Mas Ayoob (link here). At one point in the interview, Mas asks if having been an avid pistol competitor helped Bill successfully get through his gunfights. Bill's immediate response was "absolutely."

Also, on a recent episode of Guntalk (link here), Tom Gresham interviewed Bruce Piatt - an active duty cop and IPSC Grand Master. Tom brought up this issue of gun games vs. real world tactics. IIRC Piatt's response was that just because he does one thing at a match doesn't mean he throws sound tactics out the window when he goes on duty.

I hope we can all agree on one thing: no gun game is "training" at all. It is better defined as a "test," a "pop quiz," or "evaluation," of your skills and equipment at that time & place.
 
Justin said:

"Taking this to it's logical conclusion, then how do we really know whether a person will react or lock up in a deadly encounter, regardless of whether they're a competitive shooter or one who's attended defensive shooting classes?"

Justin:

There is a model which has proven itself as an effective trainer of men and women to face that first gunfight. That model would be law enforcement training, as explained below:

40-80 hours of basic firearms training, (skill development)

30-40 hours of classroom and hands on tactical training, (patrol procedures)

10-20 hours of role-play in critical areas, (mock-scenes).

During this time, recruits are continuely monitored for mindset issues, (willingness to take instruction, follow academy rules etc).

When a recruit graduates from the police academy, he or she is for the most part, well trained to handle critical incidents.

A private citizen would do well to replicate such an experience on their own, if they want to be prepared for that once in a lifetime critical incident. The issue of being prepared to handle your first critical incident goes far beyond the issue of "competition v. tactical training".
 
Interesting conversation and I hope no one minds me adding a few thoughts. I read the article and have competed, albeit poorly, in IDPA. I have taken several tactical classes, but not at the expensively branded places that require a complex in Arizona or a ranch on a large stretch of land and which costs more money than I have to avail me of such instruction. Also, I am/was a military brat that grew up on and around military bases with all the old guard still residing in communities close by so spoke to vets from WWII, Korean War, and Viet Nam (my dad also being a vet in that last conflict and serving 22 years in the Army before retirement).

With all that's been said, I am unsure if some of these old military guys, some of whom wounded in battle, would have excelled at competitions or if really good competitors would have had more advantages than some of these guys when it came down to fighting for 'realz.'

I believe, as has been stated, that competition and training gives you more than what you would have lacked otherwise if that knowledge and experience wasn't given, but as others here have also stated, up until that moment of truth...you just don't know when it is for real. What's missing here is the balance between the individual and his ability to use knowledge gained by prudent training and competition--and that's regardless of how good the instruction is. Or perhaps we're all dancing around the same topic.

Why is it in a college class with the exact same lecture and handouts someone gets an A and someone gets an F? The instruction in that case can't be faulted for the failure of the student to perform. So I guess the fulcrum of that balance resides squarely on the individual's shoulders to make use of it.
 
In the real world, the 'exams' tend to be pretty tough... I've mentioned this story on another thread here, but it's been pretty heavy on my mind since I saw it. So here it is again:

Cape woman shoots, kills rapist in her home

Saturday, November 1, 2008
By Bridget DiCosmo
Southeast Missourian

Before shooting and killing her rapist early Friday morning, a Cape Girardeau woman had never fired a shotgun in her life.

Though the woman, whose name has been withheld, lived alone, she'd always felt safe in her neighborhood, where she'd lived for the past four years.

When Ronnie W. Preyer, a registered sex offender who was about to be charged with assaulting her a week earlier, broke into her home shortly after 2 a.m. Friday, she said a calm settled over her as she shot him in the chest before running to a neighbor's to get help.

Preyer, 47, of Cape Girardeau was pronounced dead a few hours later at Saint Francis Medical Center.

/snip/

She told her daughter and her landlord what happened[after the first attack], and her landlord repaired the window, added security devices to all the doors and, in a gesture that may have saved her life, purchased a shotgun for her.

"I've never shot a shotgun before," she said.

Her landlord instructed her on how to load the firearm, and she kept it near her for a week.

/snip/

- http://www.semissourian.com/article/20081101/NEWS01/711019994/0/FRONTPAGE

This story made a pretty big impression on me, for several reasons. First of all, because the victim refused to be a victim- successfully. I always like it when the good guys win.

But I have to wonder how scared she was, if she fumbled with unfamiliar controls on the firearm, if she was worried things wouldn't work as they should and if her attacker would then take the gun from her. I have a feeling it was a long, long time until that shotgun blast sounded, after she realized what was happening and what she had to do. At least in the altered chronology of situations like that, I think it may have felt like an eternity to her.

I'd have liked the story a lot better if I could have felt she didn't have to go through so much of that uncertainty and fear, if she could have had a larger degree of confidence in her weapon and in her ability to use it.

Training.

Practice.

Sometimes, not very much of either one can be enough. I'm very glad in this case, for this woman, whatever training and practice she'd had was enough. I just can't help but wish she'd had more.

lpl
 
"And yet, much of what has appeared in the last four decades is relatively worthless for self defense because it's the result of competition target shooting in one form or the other. from good old-fashioned bullseye competition to PPC shooting to IPSC and it's related endeavors, competition
has contributed little to useful self defense...for well over 100 years, competition shooting techniques have always failed to save lives when applied to life and death situations.
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This is the part that I have the most problem with, mainly because of the "always" word. I guess all the cops, military & citizens that have competed never saved lives with competition techniques. Chuck didn't say tactics, he said techniques- big difference.

Referencing ego drive a little later as the primary motivator of competition, couldn't the same be said for trainers who adamantly tout things like the traditional Weaver stance & 1911 as the only solution to the problem?

He may be getting at "Keep your competition stuff for the competition & make sure you're shoot-them-in-the-face stuff is top notch," but with the first section it sets the mood to be one of competition will get you killed which is just as absurd as telling people that you don't need to shoot accurately in a fight.

I do agree with him that calling competition an equal to combat or the best preparation for combat is foolish, but to say that nothing ever came out of competition that could be used to shoot someone in combat is equally so.
 
I don't know Chuck. I haven't taken any training from him. I don't have a dog in this fight, other than I said I agree with the excerpts that were posted here for discussion.


How about someone share the entire article before we start taking his words, stretch them into extremes he didn't write, and assign those thoughts and motives to Chuck?
 
If someone wants to kill you, you probably won't be able to maintain the level of situational awareness to be able to prevent it. An ambush during a time of peace is hard to defeat and if defeated, is most likely through luck or the bad guy's lack of proficiency than anything else.
I do recognize that competitive shooting instills good gun handling. That said, its a poor substitute for an actual fight.
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The difference between any range drill and real life is this: On the range, the goal is to put hits in the target. In real life, the goal is to not get hit by your opponent's gunfire. The things we do to not get hit, tend to have a negative impact on our ability to get a hit on our opponent. Gunfight Dynamics 101.
 
Bat Masterson said that the three qualities a man must possess to survive a gunfight is courage, deliberation and a proficiency with firearms, the most important factor being deliberation. While competitive shooting may not address courage or deliberation, it certainly addresses proficiency with firearms. So Chuck saying
competition shooting techniques have always failed to save lives when applied to life and death situations.
Click to expand...
may be true in that it doesn't address the other factors, but those people sure fare better than the ones that AREN'T proficient.
 
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