Citizen arrest, detention, held at gunpoint?

[Josey]

You are out and about. You stop at an intersection with a red light against you. There is some noise, yelling and a sickening thud. You look up to see a white and arange cane lying in the intersection, a pair of sunglasses nearby. A small Chevy is dragging a human underneath and then drives over the body. The driver stops and gets out. You get out and go to the victim to check for injuries. Fatality is obvious. The driver involved begins to run back to their vehicle. They jump in and accelerate away. I wonder if deadly force is even considered? There is a dead blind person lying in the street. Would you try to strongarm the driver? Can you perform a citizen arrest? Should you just be a good witness?

 

[Andrew Rothman]

In most places, if you witness a felony, you may make a citizen's arrest.

Would I? Hell no.

Get a license plate number and be a good witness.

A whole gang of folks who wear blue uniforms and get PAID to chase bad guys should have little problem finding the scumbag.

Deadly force is not justified. The standard, I believe, is a resonable belief that not killing the perp will lead to imminent GBH or death to others.

 

[Chupacabra]

Exactly what MPayne said.

Be a good witness and let the cops do what they do best.

 

[bud45]

Depends...but YES!

I would, if possible, make a SAFE citizen arrest and would do it armed if I saw fit. As I already have paramedic training, it wouldn't take a second to assess the situation & victim's situation. I wouldn't shoot the perp, but would get as much info as possible, while getting someone else to call 911 and follow the perp, while on cell phone or Amateur radio phone-patch, until the police could intercept him/her & I could give my statement.

I've done this with a drunk driver once before- fortunately, he didn't kill anyone, but he came close. Be aware that you cannot reason with a drunk, nor anyone else under the influence of drugs- they get "superhuman" all of a sudden. HOWEVER, in the case of a burglar, YES, I'd draw on them...a rapist, I would in a heartbeat- and if any perp threatened me with deadly force to get me to pull back, I'd use my God- given right to self-defense.

Be careful and keep a cool head- it's a LOT different than what Hollywood tries to feed the public. Go to a shooting club & train with those who practice these situations all the time- it could save a life.

 

[4v50 Gary]

And if you were to fire the gun? Deadly force for a negligent homicide? It's more than a violation of the penal code but also a civil matter against the citizen/gunowner for wrongful death. Better to be a good witness.

 

[c_yeager]

Gary makes a good point. Citizens Arrest is legal and maybe even a appropriate in this case. It IS legal (in most states) to use "FORCE" to hold someone under a legitimate citizens arrest. Holding the fellow with a firearm may even be OK. The problem is that your using a firearm in a situation that doesnt warrent deadly force. Should the guy decide that he doesnt want to hang around your left holding either a useless piece of metal or a murder weapon. Not a fun situation.

In most cases tackling the guy and holding him for LE would be an OK thing to do. Although i dont really think its worth it. It isnt going to help the guy that got hit and if you get the tag number ont he driver LE can pick him up at their convenience. The end result is the same only you dont risk getting beat up/ sued.

 

[Carbonator]

Limited potential benefit to do more than witnessing / getting license plate number. I see UNlimited potential (financial, physical, etc...) disaster to you by pulling your gun to detain him. Unless you think he is an immediate continued threat to you or others (like he'll run over another person down the street) I'd lay low and assist the victim. Bad things also tend to drag out over a long time, bad guys hold grudges, and he'll know who you are... Depends.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I think it is great many folks are willing to try to make a citizens' arrest and detain somebody. Sadly, however, most of those same folks have considerably less training in dealing with arresting and detaining individuals than they do for for firearms training. Most have absolutely zero training on how to arrest and detain a suspect. They don't know how to do it legally or safely (for them and the suspect) and in the process may blow the suspect's rights (and hence the suspect not get convicted or fully convicted of said crime) or could easily manage to get injured or killed in the process because they really don't know what they are doing.

If you feel comfortable with doing such bold acts, then take the time and get the proper training so that should you decided to play Joe Cop, you can do it right, especially in regard to protecting your own safety and not blowing the suspect's right such that he gets off.

 

[foghornl]

Get the tag number, car description, etc. Unless said miscreant driver makes a specific threat aginst you & yours, not much else you can do.

Unfortuneately for all of us, it is usually the "Good Samaritan" that ends up taking the worst beating, from a [ahem] legal point of view.

 

[Edward429451]

It's my understanding that if someone commits a felony in your prescense that deadly force is justified, but that don't make it a good idea.

Observe & report.

 

[JamisJockey]

Get a license plate number and be a good witness.

Hit and Run is usually a felony, and around here my interpretation is that deadly force would probably be authorized, however, in the scenerio described the window of opportunity has passed. If a person was quick enough, I'd hold the person at gunpoint if necessary, but I don't think I'd be comfortable shooting in this case. I know, don't draw if you dont plan on shooting...this is one of those cases where I probably would.
Primarily, be a good witness, and make sure the Police are informed immediately!

 

[yzguy]

as a citizen I would NEVER hold anyone at gun point. It is a futile attempt to hold someone. All they would have to do (at least in Florida) is slowly turn around and start walking then running away, and there is nothing you can do. If you shoot, it will not be SD, if you get closer trying to physically stop them, you risk them trying to take the weapon that they now know you have.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

At what point during the felony are you allowed to use deadly force and at what point is it no longer legal, Edward? So it is Hit and Run. The damage is done and the guy is fleeing (the 'run' part). Do you have to shoot during the hit or can you wait for a while?

If you have detained the alledged felon after the crime and he does walk away, who is he endangering such that you get to shoot him?


At Thunder Ranch, they are big on having you hold your target at gunpoint for extended periods of time while they go over instructions multiple times. The poor justification is that you might have to hold a person at gunpoint for a long period of time and they repetivily cite some incident where a guy was held at gun point for 45 minutes. As a citizen, it is my perspective that you either shoot the person when the time was legally appropriate, or you are a good witness and let them go. This business of 'detaining' a person just means that I, as a good citizen, would have to place myself in prolonged danger due to being in the immediate proximity of a person who just committed a felony and does not want to be detained. Everything in my training had taught me that it is not in my best interest to stay in proximity to danger, the exceptions being when it is necessary to save my own life or the life of another. As the crime is already done, the issue of saving lives is not in place and hence keeping myself in danger would be quite poorly reasoned and unjustified.

Of course, there is always the claims of 'furtive movement' by the suspect and being in fear for one's life after the detainment has started... (thank you El Tejon!)

 

[Hkmp5sd]

The driver involved begins to run back to their vehicle. They jump in and accelerate away. I wonder if deadly force is even considered?

"But officer, I was just running down to the 7/11 to call 911. This crazy guy with a gun jumped out and started shooting at me. The only way to stop him from killing me was to run over him. It was self defense."

 

[JamisJockey]

Can 'o' worms......

Very true that you can't just shoot someone who walks away...unless...
What if he's got a weapon and just comitted a violent felony. He's got the gun/knife/bloody bat in a down or low ready type position. You draw and shout a command "Drop the weapon!" You're about to shoot, transitioning your weapon to good sight alignment, moving your finger from the frame to the trigger..... He looks at you and turns to walk away, still holding the weapon....now what?
However, same scenerio....you draw...shout "Drop your Weapon!" The perp looks at you, and drops his weapon. Now what? Holster your weapon and go call the cops? No. You've got to be prepared to give the perp commands and hold them at gunpoint until the "Authorities" arrive.

The only way to stop him from killing me was to run over him.

Never, ever, ever take on a vehicle unless they are already trying to kill you! Unless you score the magic bb, you're not going to stop a vehicle with a typical CCW handgun!

The damage is done and the guy is fleeing (the 'run' part).

My opinion, and thats all it is, is that if the guy still presents a serious danger to other persons or yourself. Like if its a crowded parking lot, and he's bouncing off cars trying to get himself out of there...or hitting more people, or barreling down on you as you attempt to render aid to the first victim(s). And you still need to consider all the other tenants of applying deadly force. Can you evade/break contact? Do you know what's behind the target....etc etc...

 

[Firethorn]

by Double Naught Spy:

They don't know how to do it legally or safely (for them and the suspect) and in the process may blow the suspect's rights (and hence the suspect not get convicted or fully convicted of said crime) or could easily manage to get injured or killed in the process because they really don't know what they are doing.

If you feel comfortable with doing such bold acts, then take the time and get the proper training so that should you decided to play Joe Cop, you can do it right, especially in regard to protecting your own safety and not blowing the suspect's right such that he gets off.

The trick here is that You, as a civilian, are not actually arresting the perp. You're simply detaining him or her until the police arrive. Once they arrive, they will conduct the investigation, brief the perp on his or her rights. You're not questioning the perp. So while you can be arrested for kidnapping/unlawful restraint/threatening, the person you're holding doesn't have to have miranda read to them by you.

As far as the safety goes, I agree, that's bad. Cops operate in teams for arrests for a reason. They have training in taking people down. They usually put their gun away (while the other covers), in order to make the physical arrest. If I had to do it, I'm staying back (about seven yards, I'd say), and giving orders, hoping that the sight of the gun pointed at them will convince them that 'even if the guy will get convicted for murder if he kills me, I'm still dead', so that they obey them.

 

[yzguy]

I kinda agree with Spy, but not totally.

As the crime is already done, the issue of saving lives is not in place and hence keeping myself in danger would be quite poorly reasoned and unjustified.

not exactly, what about the next person he threatens or kills?? I mean this is of no immediate consideration, but still is possible/likely.

I said I would not hold anyone at gun point, but let me clarify a bit. In this scenario I would not. My gun was not drawn and there was no immediate threat to me, so I'm not going to draw to hold him at gun point.

Now if someone were to try to rob me with say a knife, and I drew my gun, and he immediately dropped to his knees, I'd then tell him not to move and hold him at "gun point" waiting for the cops. If he charged me, I'd shoot, if he calmly dropped his weapon and walked away, I would not (but he probably does not know that).

 

[Edward429451]

At what point during the felony are you allowed to use deadly force and at what point is it no longer legal, Edward? So it is Hit and Run. The damage is done and the guy is fleeing (the 'run' part). Do you have to shoot during the hit or can you wait for a while?

DNS,

Technically speaking, I think one would be justified in shooting a fleeing felon. But in the same breath (paragraph) I also said that it would not be a good idea, and went on to state what I'd do in this scenario, observe and report.

As you said, at that point the damage is done...there could not be a life saved by shooting the guy in the back. The guy who was run over would either live or die and shooting someone else would not make a difference to if he lived. If you read that I would shoot the guy, might I suggest you go back and read my post again?

Would I ever shoot a man in the back? Depends on the circumstances. The scenario has the perp get out and check on the guy before deciding to flee. I take this as fear and desperation rather than criminal intent. The guy is likely not a carrerr criminal who would be a menace to society if let go. If I came home and a rapist had just raped my wife and was running from the scene, I'd fill his backside full of holes and congratulate myself for a job well done. That would have been a situation where if I let the man go then the community would be endangered by me letting the man go as his criminal intent and mindset was very well established. I do not want to shoot anyone, change anything in the scenario(s) and my answer may or may not change. OK?

Observe and report for this threads scenario.

 

[Binkus]

I think it has a lot to do with state laws, I know that in NC useing deadly force would be illegal becouse the suspect is trying to flea. Deadly force is only authorized here to prevent or stop a serious crime in this situation its already been comited and he is now fleeing (no deadly force). As for making a citizens arrest or detaining Im not sure exatly were the laws lie except that deadly force is not authourized after the crime has been comited, meaning you cant shoot him to prevent him from leaving. you could still detain him at gun point just cant shoot unless he presents another life threatning act. Personlly and if I was absoutly positive the victim was dead with no chance of revival on my part I would get the vehicle discreption and probably attempt to follow him at a distance untill the leos took over (naturally Id be on the cell giving street locations) If for any reason my follwing him looks like it might cause him to drive in a radical method or if It looked like it would result in a confrontation betwen us I would abandon any attempt to follow him. I would not try to detain him at gun point for 2 reasons if he just walks away there isnt to much else I could do and second bringing a gun into the scene could esculate the situation which still wont help the victim in any way but could potentally lead to a lot of problems on your part.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Another way to look at this is to ask yourself if you really think it is worthwhile to risk your life in an attempt to stop a fleeing driver. Not all of us are Dirty Harry or Bruce Lee. The BG just might be better at fighting than you are and one more dead body isn't going to make that much difference to him.

 

[c_yeager]

In Washington State its OK to shoot a fleeing felon IF there is a reasonable belief that he will commit a further violent felony in the process of fleeing/near future. OR if he is fleeing with a significant portion of your property (i cant remember what the EXACT definition of significant is but, it aint much). The first case mainly would be applied to escaped convicts armed robbers etc (think LA bank robbery for example). Of course all of this is subject to the whim of presecutors/police so YMMV.

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

TENNESSEE v. GARNER, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)

The Supreme Court ruled on the constitutionality of laws which allow the use of deadly force solely on the basis of the suspect having comitted a felony back in '85. Quoting from that decision,

"The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable."

In order to shoot someone you must be able to articulate an immediate, serious threat that they presented to yourself or others. The only exception that I'm familiar with is that some states (including Colorado) hold you to a lesser standard of threat in your home under "make my day" statutes.

 

[bud45]

Unusual circumstances

Unless you've had training in such situations, you really don't know what you'd do- be careful not to rule with emotions, but react with your head.

TRUE STORY: Just a few weeks ago, about middle-January, I know of a fellow (last name Bussey, forgot the first) who is related to "Bubba" of the "Rick & Bubba Show" out of Birmingham who caught a perp burglarizing his (Bussey's) father's home. Bussey had gone there after his father passed away to cut the grass. Before starting the mower, he heard an unusual noise on the other side of the house & went to investigate. The perp was dragging furniture out & loading it onto a truck. Bussey stopped him & when the perp tried to flee, Bussey pulled a .38 revolver. The man came back & was made to unload the furniture & put it back into the house. Not only THAT, but Bussey made him cut the grass AT GUNPOINT until he could flag someone down to call the police- the phone in the home had been disconnected and he didn't carry a cell phone. Needless to say, by that time, the perp was too pooped to run & the grass was all done- WITH A PUSH MOWER!

The perp has a L-O-N-G rap sheet which included burlary, A&B, B&E & some other things- about 35 crimes in all. So far, it looks like he won't get out for a long time.

If a perp is fleeing and it is painfully obvious he will hurt someone in the process, I have no problem firing upon him. If he's calmly walking away, I would tail & advise. If he is walking/running to a weapon to aid himself in his getaway, I would fire. If he advanced upon me in a threatening manner, then it would be self-defense. I'm getting too old to fist-fight, knife-fight or otherwise come in contact any more! Otherwise, if the person just gave up on the spot, I would most likely try & minister to him....

 

[combat effective]

You couldn't use deadly force to stop them unless they are placing the lives of others in immediate danger by their actions.

Yes, you could make a citizen's arrest, but as others have already said, your best course of action would be to be a good witness.

 

[Ryder]

Too late to help the dead guy. Arresting anyone isn't going to help. If I wanted to arrest people I'd be a cop. I'd stick around to provide details but must admit I'd be praying the cops don't try hanging it on me.

Can't remember the last time I stopped at a red light. Make mine a stop sign.