Citizens Arrest and the Detention of a Suspect by a Private citizen

[RPZ]

In Texas, and probably some of these in many other states, the most likely instances in which a subject is held at gunpoint are cases where an attempted armed robbery, armed kidnapping, armed assault, thief at night, criminal mischief at night, burglary at night - where deadly force would have been justified - has occurred. Visible weapon discarded or removed from subject, the subject was not shot. Person calls, informs they have a person at gunpoint.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I will repeat...

Saying it twice doesn't make you suddenly right, it just makes you wrong twice. Trespassing is in no way indicative that a person is committing or attempting to commit a theft.


Sadly, the OP was psychic. Not only has "but the law in Texas" wandered in here, but as usual, it's wrong.

 

[Jeff White]

In Texas, and probably some of these in many other states, the most likely instances in which a subject is held at gunpoint are cases where an attempted armed robbery, armed kidnapping, armed assault, thief at night, criminal mischief at night, burglary at night - where deadly force would have been justified - has occurred. Visible weapon discarded or removed from subject, the subject was not shot. Person calls, informs they have a person at gunpoint.

Working in a rural area I responded to several calls of a property owner holding someone at gun point. It was usually trespassing. Someone wandering around a barn, equipment shed or outbuildings. Perhaps many of the incidents would have evolved into a burglary had the property owner not intervened, but there are very limited circumstances where you can arrest someone for what they "might" do. In most cases they have to have already entered a structure or actually taken something before you have all of the elements necessary to charge burglary or theft.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Under the treaty by which it joined the Union, it still retains some vestiges of sovereignty,

No.

 

[shafter]

Kleanbore is SPOT ON.

Having actually taken a few into arrest alone ,I can attest to the EXTREME danger of that.

And I was a defensive tactics instructor and had HUNDREDS OF HOURS of practice doing just that.

Until you actually try a custodial arrest of a non compliant,you will not have a clue.

You're right, and unfortunately in many rural jurisdictions solo arrests are a fact of life. I wouldn't recommend anyone without a significant level of training trying to use force to detain someone. Even trained law enforcement officers, who have the full backing of the law, know when discretion is the better part of valor, and when it's prudent to simply come back with backup when it's feasible to do so.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Working in a rural area I responded to several calls of a property owner holding someone at gun point. It was usually trespassing. Someone wandering around a barn, equipment shed or outbuildings. Perhaps many of the incidents would have evolved into a burglary had the property owner not intervened, but there are very limited circumstances where you can arrest someone for what they "might" do. In most cases they have to have already entered a structure or actually taken something before you have all of the elements necessary to charge burglary or theft.

Did you arrest the property owner?

 

[RPZ]

Working in a rural area I responded to several calls of a property owner holding someone at gun point. It was usually trespassing. Someone wandering around a barn, equipment shed or outbuildings. Perhaps many of the incidents would have evolved into a burglary had the property owner not intervened, but there are very limited circumstances where you can arrest someone for what they "might" do. In most cases they have to have already entered a structure or actually taken something before you have all of the elements necessary to charge burglary or theft.

I used to monitor Houston PD transmissions in the applicable sector I happened to be working on any given evening or night over a period of many years. Someone holding someone else at gun point was not that frequent, but did come up once in a while. The majority were probably attempted armed robberies, and home burglaries at night.

 

[Jeff White]

Did you arrest the property owner?

No. I always lit up the light bar and maybe even tapped the siren coming up the drive so the nervous property owner knew who was approaching.

I suppose I could have made an arrest for unlawful restraint, but in these cases the expedient thing to do was to run the trespasser off with the notice that if he showed up again he would be arrested for criminal trespass and then explain the law to the property owner who was usually upset because no arrest was made.

The worst calls were the ones where the wife or someone in the family called in and said they heard a noise or saw a light and someone had armed themselves and went out to check.

RPZ, how did you know what the majority of the calls "probably" were?

I "rescued" plenty of coon hunters who were trailing a dog they lost and wandered around someone's house or barn in the wee hours of the morning.

I'm also quite sure more then one of the "trespassers" I ran off intended to commit a crime. But unless they had a prior record of burglary and were in possession of a crowbar or large screwdriver you couldn't make a case for possession of burglary tools. You can't arrest someone for a crime you think they are about to commit.

 

[RPZ]

No. I always lit up the light bar and maybe even tapped the siren coming up the drive so the nervous property owner knew who was approaching.

I suppose I could have made an arrest for unlawful restraint, but in these cases the expedient thing to do was to run the trespasser off with the notice that if he showed up again he would be arrested for criminal trespass and then explain the law to the property owner who was usually upset because no arrest was made.

The worst calls were the ones where the wife or someone in the family called in and said they heard a noise or saw a light and someone had armed themselves and went out to check.

RPZ, how did you know what the majority of the calls "probably" were?

I "rescued" plenty of coon hunters who were trailing a dog they lost and wandered around someone's house or barn in the wee hours of the morning.

I'm also quite sure more then one of the "trespassers" I ran off intended to commit a crime. But unless they had a prior record of burglary and were in possession of a crowbar or large screwdriver you couldn't make a case for possession of burglary tools. You can't arrest someone for a crime you think they are about to commit.

Address (area) - business - residential, plus other info given by the dispatcher. This is quite normal. I would never respond to a dispatch that did not include some basic information about the circumstances of any incident - I suspect most HPD officers feel the same way - and my observations have been to the effect that is so.

 

[Jeff White]

I would never respond to a dispatch that did not include some basic information about the circumstances of any incident - I suspect most HPD officers feel the same way - and my observations have been to the effect that is so.

Houston must have the best 911 call center and dispatchers in the world if they never have to respond to unknown trouble calls or 911 hangups. What's their secret?

And how do they ascertain that what the complainant says is actually what's happening at the scene?

 

[RPZ]

Houston must have the best 911 call center and dispatchers in the world if they never have to respond to unknown trouble calls or 911 hangups. What's their secret?

And how do they ascertain that what the complainant says is actually what's happening at the scene?

Houston must have the best 911 call center and dispatchers in the world if they never have to respond to unknown trouble calls or 911 hangups. What's their secret?

And how do they ascertain that what the complainant says is actually what's happening at the scene?

All I can say is based on what I have heard, and seen. I have made (in the private sector) countless calls for assistance in the last 2 decades and for a large portion if that was able to hear what the dispatcher related to responding units.

I have heard some interesting instances; example, dispatcher instructs unit to go and arrest the suspect. That produced a predictable response from the PO. Other instances include a patrol supervisor interrupting a back and forth between dispatcher and a unit, and a sort of a "reading of the riot act" directed to the dispatcher.

Hang ups, yes they do happen, and the dispatcher (any good dispatcher) will say that first up, as in the first few words. I have

In my day, as general practice went, a dispatcher that would not give as much relevent info to a responding unit(s) as possible would not last long.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I would never respond to a dispatch that did not include some basic information about the circumstances of any incident - I suspect most HPD officers feel the same way -

Wait, I had the option to not respond to a call if I didn't like how it looked on the MDT?

SON

OF

A

BI....

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Another thread gone awry.

Regardless of the state you live in there's nothing on your property worth killing over, or bringing yourself into a potential situation where you confront someone trying to steal your property.

If you witness someone trespassing on your property call the cops, and hunker down with whatever arms you deem applicable.

This whole "holding a suspect at gunpoint" is ridiculous. The only way I'm drawing a gun at home is if I feel myself or loved ones are under threat, and I'll draw with the intent to stop the threat, unless the threat runs away. But I am NOT going to play LEO and try and "hold" them until the authorities arrive.

If in a bizarre scenario a threat who was caught decided to get down and submit until authorities arrive than so be it. But I would not seek out that situation.

 

[Jeff White]

And therefore can not envision a conversation between a dispatcher and a unit.

Do you have any idea how often you arrive on the scene and discover that something totally different then what was dispatched is happening? If you are making judgements as to what's really happening out there based on what you hear in scannerland then you're making judgements without based on very incomplete information.

To pull it back on topic, many of the calls where I ended up releasing the suspect with a warning about criminal trespass were dispatched as burglaries. Yet upon arrival and talking to the property owner and the "suspect" it was determined that no burglary had occurred because the suspect didn't enter any building.

I once responded to a report of a stabbing and ended up arresting the person who was stabbed for home invasion. Two friends, both falling down drunk get in a fight in the yard. The drunk who lived there disengaged and went in the house. The drunk who got stabbed wasn't done fighting, kicked the door in and was chocking his drunk friend and the friend stabbed him. Do you know what you would have heard on your scanner? That I was dispatched to an address where a stabbing occurred. You would have heard me clear from that scene and drive to the ER to interview the victim. You wouldn't have heard anything about the phone call to the state's attorney after all the statements were taken and the decision on who to arrest and on what charges.

Don't make the mistake of thinking you can know what's really happening by listening in on the scanner. You are getting a very incomplete story.

 

[Kleanbore]

In Texas, and probably some of these in many other states, the most likely instances in which a subject is held at gunpoint are cases where an attempted armed robbery, armed kidnapping, armed assault, thief at night, criminal mischief at night, burglary at night - where deadly force would have been justified - has occurred.

Perhaps.

But again, that doe not mean that the act had been at all prudent.

 

[Kleanbore]

This is quite normal. I would never respond to a dispatch that did not include some basic information about the circumstances of any incident -

Did your departmental procedures really afford you that latitude?

 

[Kleanbore]

Let's stay on topic, folks, and avoid bickering.

 

[Kleanbore]

Let;s understand emoting important here.

Whether an act is lawful in a particular jurisdiction cannot be established by a layman's interpretation of the waring of a statute.

Nor will anecdotal evidence indicating that someone somewhere was not charged, or has not yet been charged, under some circumstance or other.

The only way to know that requires that...

1. someone be charged, tried, and convicted for a particular action;
2. that the conviction be appealed on the basis of the applicability or constitutionality of the point of law in question;
3. and that an appellate court issues a ruling on that specific question of law.

That's it.

Nothing else can tell us that a particular action would be lawful in the general case, and it would be extremely unwise to rely upon reports of the outcomes of incidents that have happened in the past.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Time to end this.