Class 3 transaction gone really bad!!!

[45R]

A friend of mines significant other laid down 6K as a down payment for a MP5 with supressed barrel in Arizona. The deal was being brokered through an FFL dealer.

Well it turns out that the seller spent the 6K and pulled out of the deal...so end result the buyer is short of a gun and 6 grand....

So I am posting this on his behalf....

So a question to Class 3 people....what can he do?

My first thought is reporting the seller to the ATF...

TIA

45R

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Lawyer up!!!

6 geee's is worth fighting for!

 

[Standing Wolf]

I'd contact my local police or sheriff's department, the F., the B., and the I., and the B.A.T.F.E. in that order.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Not good.

I paid for my NFA items after the Form 4 came back approved.

 

[444]

I am waiting on two suppressors that I ordered in December. I paid up front. I don't really think the guy is ripping me off, but there is doubt in the back of my mind.

Definitely contact, local police, FBI, and ATF.

 

[Kharn]

Well, if the seller spent the money, his only recourse is to pony up that MP5 or find some other way to produce the money. Did he/she start the Form4s? I'd be on the phone with the ATF in a second, and then then a lawyer right after that. Stealing $6k is a FELONY in every state, the seller can either transfer the MP5 or watch as the ATF fills out a Form10 on it.

Kharn

 

[dsgrntldPW]

Was this a storefront dealer, or a kitchen table guy. I would think if they want to continue in the business, which he may not as he now has an extra 6K to cut & run with, he wouldn't want this to get around. For something this serious definitely get the locals and feds, as it appears this may be an interstate crime if your friend is also in the PRK, involved. Name names.

 

[Combat-wombat]

Tell him to get a lawyer. Like weasel said, 6K is worth fighting for. Definitely.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I get the impression this is an individual that was selling a MP5 (if he did in fact have one and the whole think isn't a ripoff from the start) to another individual through a Class III FFL. The seller got the money and was supposed to tranfer the gun to the FFL and skipped at that point.

It seems unlikely that a licensed dealer in NFA items would bother with $6k. The cost of the FFL, local and state licenses, insurance, business location, utilities, security, actual merchandise etc. is a lot of money to shell out just to steal $6k.

If that's the case, there may not be much ATF can do and there may be little the FBI can (or would) do.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

If he used a postal money order or mailed the $6000 contact the USPS and get a postal inspector on the case. It is a federal mail fraud case. If he paid by check then it was cashed out of state. That is interstate transfer of funds by fraud, also a federal offense, contact the FBI. I have had good luck with both, the postal inspectors pay the guy a visit and will give him the option of coming up with the $6000 or the gun or go to jail.

 

[45R]

For something this serious definitely get the locals and feds, as it appears this may be an interstate crime if your friend is also in the PRK, involved. Name names.

All parties involved live in AZ and NV.

 

[Mike Irwin]

That's felony fraud and/or theft is my bet.

And since it involved transactions across state lines for that amount of money, it could easily be a Federal felony.

 

[six 4 sure]

I personally experienced something very similar. I had a brand new Win Mod 70 Classic Stainless in .270 WSM and a new Shepherd’s scope go MIA. My gun “was lost in a UPS warehouse†for three months (at least that the story I got from my former neighbor/dealer/friend). To keep the long and painful story short it miraculously reappeared after threatening to involve the State Highway Patrol and the ATF. It took several threatening phone calls and emails, but I finally got my gun. I would suggest having the buyer tell the seller that unless the gun appears quickly that he is going to involve the HP, ATF, FBI and any other alphabet gang he thinks applicable.

Tell him to threaten that he is going to report the gun lost/stolen. After my incident I found out from the ATF website that all lost guns are to be reported to the ATF within 24 hours. Hopefully your friend got the SN (that was my BIG mistake). If he has the SN, have him threaten to pass that along to the HP/ATF/FBI so that it’s entered into the NCIS(?) the national database of stolen firearms. A good friend that’s a State Trooper suggested this to me. Granted my situation was a little different because it was lost in transit, but your friend should still cover his own behind. The seller now has cash in hand (or did) and could sell the firearm to someone even less reputable. The last thing your friend would want is a class 3 weapon floating around with possible paper work in his name.

I wish you friend good luck it took me a month of threats and phone calls to get my rifle. I feel your friend’s pain. I didn’t sleep well for several weeks during my mess. This was a huge learning experience for me. I now have a catalog of every firearm I own/owned complete with dates and SN’s. I suggest everyone keeps a similar catalog.

six

 

[six 4 sure]

Sorry to ramble on

But, after making that my post I remembered a few more things my Trooper friend suggested.

First, start a paper trail. Have your friend document anything he can paperwork, phone calls, canceled checks/mo, emails, etc. If threatening doesn’t produce results go to the authorities (fortunately I didn’t have to do this). Start with the Highway Patrol in the state the buyer resides. Skip any local law enforcement to avoid any possible “good ole boy†ties. Tell him to expect the runaround, (my case didn’t involve a class 3 weapon so that might speed up the process). Tracking down lost/stolen weapons isn’t a big priority apparently.

If he doesn’t get anywhere with the HP contact the ATF or he may want to do both (do a search for lost firearms on their website it will produce a phone number or two) and report the gun as lost or stolen. This will probably bring down the wrath of God, so I hope your friend filled out all the proper paper work to avoid trouble himself.

After my experience I can’t stress how important CYOA can be. Worst case scenario your friend will be out the money (which would still suck big time). But, I’d have him make dang sure if that gun is used in some kind of crime it doesn’t come back and bite him in the butt.

Again wish him luck, keep us posted on what happens. I sure hope it all works out ok.

six

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Reporting it as lost or stolen probably wouldn't work in this case since it is an NFA weapon. Without the approved paperwork, he is confessing to being in possession of an unregistered machinegun and to get out of that, he will have to confess to filing a false police report about the loss/theft of a firearm he never owned or possessed.

If the seller tries to report it lost or stolen, he has two problems. ATF requires owners of NFA items to report directly to them when the item is discovered missing. Also, the seller would still be liable for the $6,000.

 

[OF]

Why does he have to deal with all the NFA stuff? The bad guy just stole $6000 from him! Can't he just call the cops and have him arrested?

- Gabe

 

[Harold Mayo]

Guys, I have a friend who is/was in a somewhat similar situation. Without mentioning names or assigning responsibility, here's the story:

Friend becomes distributor for relatively new and struggling company. Friend builds and sustains the sales for the company, devoting almost his entire business to nothing but sales for this company while the owner goes behind his back and gets sales contracts for other markets. Friend gets notified out of the blue that he will get no more guns and needs to pay for the last shipment. Friend, pissed that he just got told that his income is ending after he's built sales for the company and allowed them time to improve the product, in addition to him having eaten some costs for warranty work that the factory refused to cover, decides to not pay.

There is blame on both sides of the above situation but we won't discuss that. The fact of the matter is that there was/is a SIGNIFICANTLY greater sum of money involved than 6K but it has pretty much been decided that it is a civil matter and not a criminal one at all. The owner of the above company can't get local or federal prosecutors to touch the case. The money was NOT "stolen" in the strictest definition of the word. There was a contract (explicity or implicit) to sell the MP5 for 6K (too good of a price, to my mind) and the seller didn't follow through. This is a civil matter and probably not a criminal one.

 

[OF]

Yeah, but the seller took the 6 G's. If it was just a contract that fell through, that's one thing. But this guy spent the buyer's 6 grand and told him 'too bad, take a hike'.

How is that not stealing?

- Gabe

 

[Cosmoline]

Why contact the ATF? I suspect they'll simply tell you it's a civil matter or at most a fraud matter for the local DA. I would want to know what the FFL's role in the exchange was. As broker, did the FFL have possession of the item? Or were they simply doing the paperwork? Did anyone even see the MP-5? There are too many questions here to know what remedies there might be. He should get a lawyer, prob. one in Arizona or wherever the seller is.

"How is that not stealing?"

Because the seller didn't steal the money, the buyer sent the money to the seller. It's not theft, though it might be fraud. I wouldn't wait around for the local law enforcement to do anything, though. He should pursue his own rights--which means bringing a contract and possibly tort action in civil court. 'Course you have to find the seller and see if he has any money.

With items of this value, I'd want a third party holding the money until receipt was confirmed.

 

[Smurfslayer]

IIRC, the NFA item must be in the possession of either the registered owner(s) on the form 4, a class 3 dealer, or a gunsmith.

If there is any paper trail - even email - indicating that the money in question has changed hands in exchange for the NFA item, AND the current owner has backed out of that deal, he has 2 choices
1: produce the item for sale as originally planned,
or
2: produce the money immediately.

Else, a crime has been committed. Now, if there's not a written record, or, a way to prove it, then the very first thing all cops are trained to say - even before you finish describing the issue - is "that's a civil matter". Never accept this. This is a "reflex". Have printed copy of code in hand, with receipts & emails, and listen to the cop mutter something about paperwork... :banghead:

Now if there is next to no evidence that the transfer was taking place ... it is a civil matter. Remember the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, they can't just charge in and put bracelets on the guy because YOU say so...

If the item in question is at a class 3 dealer, I would involve the ATF. C3's want everything to be above board, and aren't going to be tolerant of a smarmy sale switcheroo. The C3 doesn't want to talk to the ATF under these kinds of circumstances... even if they weren't involved in the bad part of the deal.

 

[Cosmoline]

There is no reason why he could not contact authorities and an attorney. Civil and criminal matters proceed on different timelines in different courts and have no direct connection with one another.

Isn't the seller still the registered owner? If so, I doubt there's been a federal crime here. Just a contract dispute. The number one response of cops is "it's a civil matter" because it usually is. The number one response of lay people is to assume that every wrong they suffer should be brought to the police. Our system (thankfully) does not work that way.

 

[six 4 sure]

I have just one more question and then I promise I won’t say anything else. Is the seller located in central Nevada? Just curious, it may be the same guy that tried to rip me off, but I doubt it. He didn’t have a class 3 license while I was there.

six

 

[4 eyed six shooter]

If you paid by credit card call the credit card company. They will sometimes help you out with a fraud.
Good luck, John K

 

[standingbear]

do you have proof that you sent the 6k to the seller?did you get copies of everything,including correspondance between you and the guy selling the fa?get an attorney who specializes in civil cases of fraud.the attorney will give you the legal advise you need and distribute the info of your case in the right ears.thats what he is paid to do.it was being brokered through a ffl dealer?also sounds like the(federal firearms liscenced dealer) dealer needs to get his.. stuff together.