Problem shipping a handgun, need information

[poppy]

This may seem like a re-hash of past threads, but I have reviewed all handgun shipping threads in the last 6 months or so and I can't find this exact situation.

Background: Won a gunbroker bid for a Star BM pistol w/ 3 mags in box, $185 + $15 shipping. Not a great deal, but better than I can find locally. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=48461881

Mon. afternoon get an Email from seller with name and address which is in Florida.

Tues. morning I send a response asking for phone # and name on the FFL.

Tues. morning seller responds with ph # and informs me that he is an individual not a dealer and would my FFL accept shipment from an individual, most do he says. If not he wants an additional $20 to take it to a FFL. Also tells me that he has a type 03 C&R license.

Tues. afternoon I forward the above Emails to my FFL and ask him if he will take a shippment from this guy.

Wed. afternoon my FFL responds that no he will not accept from individual because ATF guidelines say when sender is out of state it must be from FFL to FFL. And besides he is on ATF hold because he is moving. This becomes a bigger problem for me since he only charges $10 for a transfer and most in my area charge at least $25.

Thurs. morning I respond to seller telling him that it appeared that he was a dealer because of the cheap shipping charge and I may not follow thru on deal because of extra charges +$20 from him and +$15 from an alternate FFL, that +$60 total on an $185 gun is too much. ($15 & $10 anticipated to $35 & $25 now) I add that I am going to the local range/gun shop today and will ask them.

Thurs. afternoon Email from me to seller stamped 1:40 pm I tell him that the other dealer also wants FFL to FFL and that I need to back out. I offer to send him up to $10 to cover out of pocket costs.

Thurs. afternoon Email from seller stamped 1:34 pm (which I did not see before sending my 1:40 Email) saying I broke the contract, should have asked all questions and had FFL lined up before bidding, and needs to leave a negative feedback on me to recoup his fees.

Since I didn't know if he responded to my latest Email or not I waited a day; got no response and checked gunbroker and sure enough he left me a negative feedback saying buyer failed to complete transaction.

So some questions for my fellow members of THR:

Was I totally responsible for this failed deal or does the seller bear some responsibility? (he said I was the second winner to back out on a deal this month)

Both FFL dealers on my end told me that the ATF guidelines say that it must be an FFL to FFL transfer. Is that right for Florida to Ohio? One told me that if he was in state he could receive it directly from the individual, but if this seller was from Ohio I would have done a FTF with him and avoided all charges.

Another thing that bugged me was that the second FFL (range/gun shop) told me that if the shipment was reversed and I was shipping to FL that they would charge me $35 shipping + $25 transfer (after telling me that the $15 +$20 was cheap). That much for shipping because they would not only log it in but have me fill out a 4473 and do a background on me and then ship it overnight. Do they have to do a background on the seller? I mentioned that they could ship with the post office and he said yea, but it would have to be overnight?

I have seen another dealer in town buy guns from walk-ins and I didn't see any paper work on the seller and I know that overnight is not required of dealers.

Can someone clear this up for me?

 

[Zundfolge]

Wed. afternoon my FFL responds that no he will not accept from individual because ATF guidelines say when sender is out of state it must be from FFL to FFL.

Wrong.

Federal law only requires an FFL on the receiving end (some states require an FFL on the sending end too, but IIRC not where you live. As IANAL, you should verify that first of course).

Thurs. afternoon Email from me to seller stamped 1:40 pm I tell him that the other dealer also wants FFL to FFL and that I need to back out. I offer to send him up to $10 to cover out of pocket costs.

Thurs. afternoon Email from seller stamped 1:34 pm (which I did not see before sending my 1:40 Email) saying I broke the contract, should have asked all questions and had FFL lined up before bidding, and needs to leave a negative feedback on me to recoup his fees.

You are in the wrong here. It is up to the buyer (thats you) to make sure they can complete the deal and if they don't they (thats you) have broken the contract.

His out of pocket costs are likely more than $10 as well (he still has to pay Gunbroker regardless of whether you go through with the deal or not).



My suggestion is either pay the extra for him to ship out from an FFL, or you find an FFL on your end that actually knows the federal laws and will accept the shipment.

 

[SaxonPig]

1. Your FFL is wrong. It is perfectly legal for him to accept an out of state shipment from anyone, including unlicensed individuals.

2. Most FFLs in my experience do not know the laws.

3. Many FFLs, even when aware of the law, have a personal policy against accpeting shipments from non-FFLs.

4. It's up to you as the buyer to make sure you have an FFL lined up for transfer and that he is on board with non-FFL shipping. So to answer your question, yes it's your fault. But, I think the seller was too quick with his feedback and he should have stated in the listing that he would be shipping it himself (if he didn't). You could have offered to pay the selling fee rather than have him ding you but it sounds like he was in too much of a hurry.

Shipping and transfer are the biggest problems with Internet gun sales. That's why the sites recommend checking with your transfer dealer to make sure he will do the deal before bidding.

Not much that can be done at this point. I have bought maybe 60 guns off Internet sites and I knew for sure what the total cost would be and I made certain that I had transfer lined up before bidding. I have never had any trouble.

AuctionArms and GunBroker have FFL lists on their home pages. Look for a more responsive transfer dealer. I like pawnshops as they don't resent transfers since they really aren't gun dealers and they ususally don't mind making a quick $20.

 

[Freeze N]

You will get most all of your Shipping and FFL answers here.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm

You need to get the FFL lined up on your end first.

And I agree that most FFL's do not know the laws. Mine didn't anyway. He does now.

 

[deadin]

Wed. afternoon my FFL responds that no he will not accept from individual because ATF guidelines say when sender is out of state it must be from FFL to FFL.

As stated earlier, many FFL's dont know the rules and prefer to err on the side of caution.
While the above isn't exactly true, the USPS regs do say that it must be FFL to FFL when mailing a handgun via the USPS.(there is a list of specific people other than FFL's that can receive a handgun through the mail, but it isn't us common folks.)
A FFL can receive from anyone, but handguns have to go by common carrier (UPS,FedEx) if the sender isn't a FFL. So to get the cheap shipping rate you have to use a FFL on each end. Of course then you have to pay their fees, so it's a wash.

Dean