Private individual shipping a handgun to a dealer

[Anna's Dad]

I purchased a gun from someone on an auction site. The guy sent the gun to my dealer but appears to have done it directly, not through a dealer of his own.

From what I've read, there is no problem with this legally. My dealer, however, said he needed an FFL. I showed him the ATF verbiage indicating that he didn't.

He seems to be agreeable but is now asking for a copy of the persons driver's license or other identification. He says he needs something identifying both parties.

I've sent an e-mail to the seller asking for this but haven't heard back yet. My dealer is saying if he doesn't receive something he's going to return the gun.

Is there any legal requirement that the seller send identification with the gun when shipping it to a dealer for transfer? If not, I may have to try to convince my dealer to release the gun to me rather than send it back.

Hopefully I'll just hear back from the seller and all will be worked out.

 

[nalioth]

Your dealer is setting his own conditions that are above and beyond what the law requires.

I call this "conditioning one's self out of business", as I find FFL holders who don't 'make up their own laws' to do business.

 

[Oro]

The transfer agent has to know with reasonable certainty who he's receiving the gun from, and to whom he's transferring it. A copy of the seller's DL is the standard method of meeting that requirement.

If you bought it off GunBroker, the seller's phone number is available to the buyer. Give him a call and sort it out. I've had this happen twice so far this year - just an honest mistake on the seller/shipper's part.

Your dealer is setting his own conditions that are above and beyond what the law requires.

No, he's setting a reasonably low bar to ensure he meets the legal conditions required. The ATF requires this information from non-licensees upon acquisition of the firearm. If the shipper/seller were personally known to them, it's conceivable the FFL might not ask for their ID, but otherwise, a valid government-issued photo ID is the standard.

See page 4, item 10 of this ATF guideline:

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2008-2.pdf

 

[dogtown tom]

Anna's Dad:...My dealer is saying if he doesn't receive something he's going to return the gun.

Don't worry about this....your dealer cannot legally return the firearm to a nonlicensee.

He CAN however, refuse to transfer the firearm to you untill the seller provides him with identification.

 

[GRIZ22]

He seems to be agreeable but is now asking for a copy of the persons driver's license or other identification.

I don't think this is an unreasonable request as the dealer only wants positive id for the person the gun came from.

 

[bobelk99]

"The FFL must have something to verify/document the source of any gun that ends up on their books. A scanned (LEGIBLE!!) copy of the owners drivers licence is a way to have said written documentation, and does not seem at all unreasonable to me."

The above is from another HR post on the same subject. I concur completely.

 

[armoredman]

He needs that info for the bound book.

 

[nalioth]

So what happened to using the return address on a package as "the source"?

When are the dealers gonna go to "We need your ID, and the ID of the person you got the item from"?

 

[Oro]

So what happened to using the return address on a package as "the source"?

Because that's entirely inadequate from a legal point of view. Anyone can make up any return address they feel like. If I scribbled:

Barack Obama
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, D.C.

on the box, the FFL transfer agent would really be expected to log it onto his books that way? Providing an ID is not an undue burden on anyone's part.

 

[Anna's Dad]

Thanks, all. I still haven't heard from the seller and am getting concerned. The phone number on GB is disconnected. I did a whitepages.com search for the guy and found his address but the same phone number displays.

Still not thinking it's fraud since it seems he sent the gun, but I'm getting a little concerned due to the complete lack of response to my multiple e-mail.

I'm going to have another conversation with my dealer just to make sure he doesn't return the gun. Hopefully he'll continue to be reasonable.

 

[Hardwoodjdc]

You might want to take a look over on the RFC site, this whole issue has been hashed over for days and the conclusion was that dealers are simply trying to make transfers more difficult to avoid internet competition. IMHO It is not nice to screw your customers, they will simply not patronize your business again and you will shortly be out of business.

 

[Oro]

the conclusion was that dealers are simply trying to make transfers more difficult to avoid internet competition.

That's both incorrect and a fairly childish conclusion that they collectively drew.

Reference section 478.125 of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide and you'll find the ATF's requirements for record keeping about firearms acquisitions and dispositions by licensees. Particularly paragraph e): For acquisition, they are required to obtain the name and address of the party sending the firearm in. Simply reading a return-address label won't cut it come inspection time. In paragraph f), a specific sub-set of requirements are given for type 03 FFL's - which include getting even the person's DOB. These are ATF requirements, not flights of whimsy on the part of the FFLs.

Plenty of FFLs who require this are in no way doing it to prevent "internet competition." Even $15 transfer FFLs require this - or at least the ones keeping proper books.

 

[wyocarp]

I'm going to have another conversation with my dealer just to make sure he doesn't return the gun. Hopefully he'll continue to be reasonable.

Sounds like he is being resonable. It's only his business and his way of making money. And he has to answer to an organization that isn't supportive of him being in business in the first place.

Is it so harsh to ask for a copy of a driver's license? As dealers, we are responsible for the information we record in our books for Every gun transfer. I too require a copy of the person's driver's license. Without complete records we are subject to a lot of attention from atf, fines, and even the possibility of losing our license.

When buying a gun online, you the buyer, should get your "ducks in a row" before the purchase. You should chat with a local shop and find out the requirements for transfering to their store.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I'm going to have another conversation with my dealer just to make sure he doesn't return the gun. Hopefully he'll continue to be reasonable.

As stated earlier, the dealer cannot legally return the gun to a non-licensee. He must now transfer that gun to either another FFL, or transfer it to someone via a 4473 and NICS check.

This is the exact reason why many dealers will not accept shipments from private parties.

I've bought one gun on gunbroker. Before I even bid on the gun, I asked my dealer if he would accept shipment from a private party, he said no problem, so long as I get a copy of their ID with the gun. I asked the seller if they would do that and they said yes to it in advance. Then I bid on the gun.

BTW, my dealer does transfers to active duty military for free and discounts to retired military... I even tried to pay him and he wouldn't take it!

 

[nwilliams]

When I sell guns on gunbroker I make it clear in the auction terms that whoever buys the gun must find an FFL that will accept from an individual.

I refuse the to pay the ridiculous transfer fees that my local gun shops charge, the cheapest being a $45 fee plus whatever they want to charge me for shipping.

Most of the time when I ship out a gun to a dealer the dealer asks me for a copy of my drivers license since I'm not an FFL holder. I have heard of dealers and I think I dealt with one once that absolutely refused to accept a transfer from me because I did not have an FFL. As far as I know there is no law stating that you must send a copy of your drivers license, however I think most gun shops want it for their records.

As for return shipping I just state in the auction listing that the guns I sell are sold "as is" with no returns. However I'm confident that any gun I sell is in perfect working order when I sell it and I wouldn't try to rip anyone off so I'm not too worried about someone wanting to return a gun to me.

 

[Digger]

misread-sorry

 

[Zach S]

You might want to take a look over on the RFC site, this whole issue has been hashed over for days and the conclusion was that dealers are simply trying to make transfers more difficult to avoid internet competition. IMHO It is not nice to screw your customers, they will simply not patronize your business again and you will shortly be out of business.

First off, the dealer needs to cover his six.

Second, before everyone got in a hurry, transfers were simple. Gun shows up, gets logged in. Dealer calls the buyer, he comes by, fills out the 4473, and the gun gets logged out.

Now you have guys calling repeatedly, or showing up within minutes of delivery to get their new toy/tool. Some even hang out at the store and wait for their one box out of many on the truck. Then they get an attitude when they cant just fill out the form and walk out with it in five minutes because the world revolves around them - the other customers dont matter, and neither do the 20 other boxes that have to be unpacked to find the other guns that need to be logged in. He's there for his transfer and he wants it now!

Sometimes the dealer charging $50 is the one getting ripped off.


Its like hanging out in your mechanic's garage and constantly asking "Done yet?" "what's taking so long?" "why are you working on that one, mine's over here?" $149 to change transmission fluid/filter is a rip off - but I understand why some shops charge it.

 

[JDGray]

Thanks, all. I still haven't heard from the seller and am getting concerned. The phone number on GB is disconnected. I did a whitepages.com search for the guy and found his address but the same phone number displays.

Contact GB, they should be able to resolve your issue. Has your dealer run a nics check, or run the serial # through local PD? Goodluck to you, and for the record, I have sold many guns on line, and have only been asked to provide a copy of my DL, a few times. Many FFLs must be doing it wrong, or it just don't matter. I can understand your dealers position, but if the weapon has not been reported stolen, I can't see in delaying your transfer. I have sent guns in for repair, and have had them shipped back to my door, without an FFL transfer, so sending it back to the owner is not out of the question. However, this statement by your dealer must tell you that he believes the sender is legit.

 

[DWFan]

It seems a bit strange that the dealer would tell you that he's going to return the firearm to an individual that he's also claiming he needs appropriate identification from to complete the transaction.
I've been lucky, I guess. I've never run into this.

 

[nalioth]

or run the serial # through local PD?

Is there a certain state/municipality that does this for FFL holders?

I've seen this myth pop up time and again. Where does it come from?

( I know, too much TV )

 

[Onward Allusion]

This is why I always confirm that the seller is a FFL. Not all FFL holders will accept a transfer from a non-FFL individual. The FFL Licensee you are working with is requesting what is customary in the business. He is not out of line.

Contact GB - they will have the seller's information on file in the form of credit card info.

Anna's Dad

Private individual shipping a handgun to a dealer
I purchased a gun from someone on an auction site. The guy sent the gun to my dealer but appears to have done it directly, not through a dealer of his own.
From what I've read, there is no problem with this legally. My dealer, however, said he needed an FFL. I showed him the ATF verbiage indicating that he didn't.
He seems to be agreeable but is now asking for a copy of the persons driver's license or other identification. He says he needs something identifying both parties.
I've sent an e-mail to the seller asking for this but haven't heard back yet. My dealer is saying if he doesn't receive something he's going to return the gun.
Is there any legal requirement that the seller send identification with the gun when shipping it to a dealer for transfer? If not, I may have to try to convince my dealer to release the gun to me rather than send it back.
Hopefully I'll just hear back from the seller and all will be worked out.

 

[JDGray]

Is there a certain state/municipality that does this for FFL holders?

I've seen this myth pop up time and again. Where does it come from?

( I know, too much TV )

Nope, not from TV

My Brother bought a rifle off a guy at work, for a very, very good price, and wondered if it was stolen. Well I talked to a Police officer Friend of mine, and he said he could check the serial number, but would have to confiscate it, if it was reported stolen. His advise was to not check Not sure if it was a Friendly offer, or policy, but seemed pretty easy for him to do.

 

[woad_yurt]

Won't your dealer let it sit on his shelf for a little while until you get it straightened out? It's a gun, not a car, and it doesn't take up much space. It sounds like he's in somewhat of a hurry.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Don't worry about this....your dealer cannot legally return the firearm to a nonlicensee.

He CAN however, refuse to transfer the firearm to you untill the seller provides him with identification.

But he -can- refuse to accept the delivery, and then it's returned to sender by the carrier. I've done that when a firearm was sent to me that isn't legal in this state.

The receiving FFL needs to verify the source of the firearms that go in his books. The -safest- way for him is to have the senders FFL. He -may- accept a shipment from a non-FFL, but there is NO requirement that he do so. If he is going to accept a shipment from a non-FFL, he is well within his rights to demand some sort of documentation as to the source of the firearm. If fact he would be stupid if he didn't.

 

[usp9]

This same situation happened to me a few years ago. The guns arrives at my local gun shop and the owner proceeds to cuss me out for buying a gun from a citizen. Then he tells me he only accepts guns from other FFLs.

I was able to contact my seller and he graciously accomodated me by emailing a copy of his drivers license, which my LGS finally accepted.

I have no solution to offer you other than the suggestion that you contact the nearest BATF office to see if they will assist you in any way, either by clarification or acknowedgement that the pistol is logged in sufficiently to release to you.

Very frustrating affair, I empathise. Two things I learned from that experience;

* Always ask first if a FFL will recieve a transfer from a citizen and how.
* Never will I use my LGS again for a transfer. Luckily I have many options in my area.