Cocked and locked with double action.

[Tokarevsrule]

I have noticed that Gun-tests and other publications say that they would carry the cz-82 or any other double action pistol cocked and locked. What is the reason for that? I always thought that hammer down safety off would be better for a double action. Besides I don't like the thought of carrying a pistol with cocked hammer over a live round, whatever safety it has.

 

[mbopp]

I think one reason is to avoid the transition between the double-action and single-action trigger pulls. And if you're used to a 1911 you should be comfortable carrying in Condition One.
It's one reason I'm leaning towards a CZ for my next purchase.

 

[The Sarge]

CZ-82 is a DA/SA. Maybe your post is about the first shot which I agree is DA.
I carry mine with a round in the pipe, safety off and hammer down.
Here I have every Glock, S&W, etc. known to man and I still daily carry my CZ82

 

[towboat_er]

I own a CZ82 and a CZ75b. I will never carry em cocked and locked. I just don't see any advantage to it.

 

[Deus Machina]

The only 'good' reason to carry a modern DA/SA cocked-and-locked is to keep from changing the trigger pull and IMO, you should either just carry a single-action or man up and get used to the change. I have no problem with it, and I'm not as avid a shooter as a lot of people.

Some less-than-modern designs don't have the same safety as new guns, though, and are built such that a drop or good bump to the hammer could set off a round. In that case, cocked-and-locked is the best way to carry those.

Personally, I'd prefer to buy a weapon more suitable for the purpose, but if that's what you have and know, more power to you.

 

[2wheels]

If you're already used to a 1911 or other similar single action gun, why change your habits? If I were to buy a DA/SA CZ75 (which I wouldn't unless it was a great deal, they have a SAO version I'd buy instead) I'd carry it cocked and locked without any hesitation.

Not everybody is comfortable carrying cocked and locked, but it seems that enough of us are that manufacturers give us the option with some DA/SA guns.

 

[JTQ]

I don't know much about the CZ 82, but with the DA/SA CZ 75 carrying "cocked and locked" gives a shorter trigger reach (the CZ 75 is known for a very long trigger reach in DA mode) and precludes manually lowering the hammer on a live round.

Nearly every other DA/SA auto has a mechanical decocker (even newer CZ's offer this for those that prefer first shot DA) to lower the hammer. CZ is one of the few designs that require you to pull the trigger to lower the hammer on a live round. It is easy to see how some would find this an unsafe practice, at least less safe than simply engaging the thumb safety after racking the slide to chamber a round.

 

[bigfatdave]

I would prefer to have the hammer locked AWAY from the firing pin than have it resting on the FP (gun design matters here, and which mechanical devices you will choose to trust)

The blanket statement "I don't like having a cocked hammer over a live round" is mostly superstition.

 

[JTQ]

Tokarevsrule wrote,
they would carry the cz-82 or any other double action pistol cocked and locked.

It's really not "any other double action pistol", since there are very few DA/SA pistol that allow the option. Besides the already mentioned CZ, there is the Taurus PT92 family (and old Beretta's of the same design), some HK's, I think some of the new FN's, and I'm sure Taurus has another of their many polymer models available with this feature.

The vast majority of DA/SA autos will not allow "cocked and locked" carry. I suppose the theory would be, if you choose a DA/SA pistol with the "cocked and locked" option you are probably choosing that pistol specifically for that feature since there are so many other options available that's probably the reason you chose that pistol in the first place.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I don't know much about the CZ 82, but with the DA/SA CZ 75 carrying "cocked and locked" gives a shorter trigger reach (the CZ 75 is known for a very long trigger reach in DA mode) and precludes manually lowering the hammer on a live round.

Nothing is precluded.

Decocking a DA/SA CZ75 is no different than decocking any other gun that doesn't have a decocker mechanism.

Learning to decock a non-decocker handgun is a basic firearm handling skills that all shooters should learn.

---
As other have noted, a DA/SA gun that can be carried cocked and locked gives most of the advantages of the SA only gun, but with the "second strike" capability of the DA gun. Some think this important, but I'm less sure. I do like the option of being able to carry in either mode.

After participating in many IDPA matches over the years, as one of the folks who scored the targets, I've noticed that most of the shooters who have DA/SA guns starting in DA mode almost always have larger groups in their first 2-3 shots than those who start from SA mode. The DA to SA transition requires a lot more practice, and most folks seem not to worry about it. In most cases, while the groups are larger, the difference isn't great.

 

[tipoc]

The vast majority of DA/SA autos will not allow "cocked and locked" carry. I suppose the theory would be, if you choose a DA/SA pistol with the "cocked and locked" option you are probably choosing that pistol specifically for that feature since there are so many other options available that's probably the reason you chose that pistol in the first place.

I think this is about right. It is an option folks have that they can employ or not as they choose. But you usually buy a gun with it because the option is allowed.

tipoc

 

[balance 740]

The CZ-82 cannot be put on "safe" until after the hammer is cocked. If this pistol shouldn't be in condition 1 state, then why put a safety on the pistol at all, why not a decocker?

Same for the CZ-75, CZ-85, CZ-97, etc.

When I owned my H&K P30S, I only carried it cocked and locked. I never used the decocker. I can't think of a reason why this would have been a bad idea.

 

[we are not amused]

My concern with carrying a pistol with the hammer down on a loaded round with the safety off, is what happens if you drop the gun?

The safety prevents the hammer from moving, so carrying cocked and locked seems safer than carrying with the hammer down but safety off.

I am unfamiliar with the CZ-82, but am familiar with both the CZ-52 and the 1911's, both of which can fire if dropped with the hammer down.

I used to carry my 1911 with the hammer down, till I took some training and my instructor pointed out that a ham fisted idiot could always drop his gun and have it go off that way.

 

[tipoc]

My concern with carrying a pistol with the hammer down on a loaded round with the safety off, is what happens if you drop the gun?

Usually nothing, well maybe a scrape. 1911s, with either the Colt type Series 80 firing system or the Schwartz type (Kimber) system physically prevent the firing pin from touching the primer unless either the trigger is pulled (Colt) or the grip safety is depressed (Schwartz). The extra strength firing pin spring offered by Wolff gunsprings is a great aid in preventing unintended discharges if dropped in 1911s without the redundant safeties I mentioned.

With most modern da/sa guns carrying hammer down on a live round is perfectly safe (CZ75B, Sig, etc.).

tipoc

 

[JTQ]

Accidental (or if you want to call them negligent) discharges due to dropping a 1911, without a firing pin safety, have nothing to do with the position of the hammer or the thumb safety. It has to do with the inertia of the firing pin over coming the firing pin spring. While I prefer Condition 1 (loaded round, hammer back, thumb safety on) over Condition 2 (loaded round, hammer down, safety off), it makes no difference in the case of dropped pistol firing.

the Schwartz type (Kimber)

It is Swartz.

May the Schwartz be with you.

 

[GLOOB]

^ Yeah, if the hammer is all the way down. If it's on half cock, then it IS more dangerous than cocked and locked.

My concern with carrying a pistol with the hammer down on a loaded round with the safety off, is what happens if you drop the gun?

The concern is real. There are SOME guns which aren't as safe in DA mode with the safety off. Polish P-64 is the example I know of. But it can't be carried cocked and locked, so the only drop-safe way to carry it is in DA mode with the safety on.

You should become familiar with the safety features of any firearm you decide to carry loaded.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

The only 'good' reason to carry a modern DA/SA cocked-and-locked is to keep from changing the trigger pull and IMO, you should either just carry a single-action or man up and get used to the change. I have no problem with it, and I'm not as avid a shooter as a lot of people.

Uh, man up? Sorry, I guess I missed the part where carrying a DA/SA gun cocked and locked is less than manly or somehow bad. Sorry that taking advantage of a better trigger pull is less manly. Watch out guys! He carries his gun hammer down! He is so macho!

^ Yeah, if the hammer is all the way down. If it's on half cock, then it IS more dangerous than cocked and locked.

The CZ 75 is designed to be carried on the half cock notch when the hammer is lowered just like the Tokarev. It's bad on JMB designed guns because it was designed to stop the hammer from falling if the last notch broke or something as a safety. On the Tokarev was designed to be carried on the half cock and they over sized the HCN to make it safe. Considering how Czechoslovakia was under Soviet control, they probably designed the notch the same way.

 

[mgmorden]

My concern with carrying a pistol with the hammer down on a loaded round with the safety off, is what happens if you drop the gun?

On anything designed remotely recently, nothing at all.

Realistically, on a modern gun, either method of carry is perfectly safe. Want to carry hammer down? Do so. Want to carry cocked and locked? Do so. Just don't delude yourself by thinking that your way is safer than the other - it's merely personal preference.

And trust me, no matter what you're doing, there will always be critics and armchair quarterbacks who know better. There are plenty of people who would react in sheer horror to carrying a gun with a round actually in the chamber. To them we're all just accidents waiting to happen. Learn to ignore them.

 

[newbuckeye]

If it's that much of a concern, carry it hammer down. I would wager in a "real life" must draw and shoot situation, you won't notice the longer trigger pull. Which ever you decide, make sure you practice it that way!

 

[ATLDave]

Why would one carry cocked-and-locked over hammer-down-no-safety? Because then two mistakes are required for an AD/ND - safety taken off and trigger pulled. DA hammer down and no safety means only one mistake (albiet a somewhat more difficult one to make) - trigger pulled.

The question, then, is why not hammer down and safety on. Some people feel that this is just too much to overcome in an SD situation, I suppose.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The question, then, is why not hammer down and safety on. Some people feel that this is just too much to overcome in an SD situation, I suppose.

And, with some designs -- which incorporate the decocker and safety into the same operating lever, it's hard to disengage the safety without also activating the decocker. In that case, when you're trying to get ready to fire, you may be disabling the gun...

Other designs don't allow the safety to function while the hammer is down. (CZs don't let the safety engage with hammer down, while the similar Witness line does.)

 

[1SOW]

My DA/SA CZ is no different than my Sig when I pull the pistol to shoot.
1. Pull the trigger

1/2-cock does give a shorter/lighter trigger pull on a stock pistol. I don't use it.
If the DA/SA transition causes problems for the shooter , switch to a different action.

JMO. Decockers, like my Sig, add unneeded linkages, springs and things to go wrong in the trigger system.
Lowering the hammer safely is on a pistol is no different than on a revolver.

 

[Deus Machina]

Uh, man up? Sorry, I guess I missed the part where carrying a DA/SA gun cocked and locked is less than manly or somehow bad. Sorry that taking advantage of a better trigger pull is less manly. Watch out guys! He carries his gun hammer down! He is so macho!

My point was, that a DA/SA is designed to cut out the only mechanical item prone to user error under stress. Draw, pull the trigger. You don't have to worry about remembering to flip the safety off or rely on muscle memory that might, in an off chance, fail you under the adrenaline rush.

My point of complaint--and why I said people should 'man up'--is that the grumbling about firearms with this system are that that DA pull is different. Well, yeah. That's the way the system works. If you want to carry it cocked and locked, go right on ahead, but just admit it's preference instead of blaming it on a feature of the design.

I don't complain because my car goes slower in first gear than second; I learn to shift and adjust.

If you want to carry it that way, that's your thing. Just call it a preference. If you learned with a single-action or have trained for it, by all means stick with what you know you can bet your life on. I prefer to take advantage of the method that I learned, have no trouble with, and doubt I'll notice the difference in when it comes down to it. Relying on a separate lever is less likely to work in my favor.

I'm sorry if a tongue-in-cheek comment offended you somehow. Me, I don't need the lightest trigger pull in case I have to draw a weapon, and I don't put enough time into my training to trust my life to adrenaline-numbed thumbs flipping a lever before I can use it. This seems less macho to me, and I don't feel bad at all for admitting it.

 

[Onmilo]

The reason for the manual safety on a CZ pistol is for fire and manuver.
It is far safer and quicker to engage the safety and move than to stop, manually decock the weapon, then move and much safer that taking off running with a cocked pistol in your hand.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

My point was, that a DA/SA is designed to cut out the only mechanical item prone to user error under stress. Draw, pull the trigger. You don't have to worry about remembering to flip the safety off or rely on muscle memory that might, in an off chance, fail you under the adrenaline rush.

Why not simplify things even more, and go with a DAO version of your own gun? Using your rationale, above, DAO seems the most logical route for you to take -- and no transition to worry about. SIG has a DAK trigger that, properly tuned, is quite effective. I wonder why you didn't suggest those options?

Better yet, let's all go with a striker-fired gun, as that ought to be even more effective: the pull is the same with every shot, and it can be MUCH SHORTER than in a DAO gun. And, of course, there doesn't have to be a lever to worry about.

Wouldn't that be the best of all possible alternatives?

My point of complaint--and why I said people should 'man up'--is that the grumbling about firearms with this system are that that DA pull is different. Well, yeah. That's the way the system works. If you want to carry it cocked and locked, go right on ahead, but just admit it's preference instead of blaming it on a feature of the design.

If they should MAN UP, and maybe you should open your eyes -- as you seem to be blind to the fact that there is a noticeable difference between the DA/SA trigger pulls, and that difference can affect outcomes.

As I've mentioned in other discussions on this forum -- having scored many targets as a range officer for MANY IDPA matches -- most folks who shoot DA/SA guns starting in DA mode generally have slightly larger groups with the first 2-3 shots than they'll have with the rest of the rounds in the magazine. You don't see that quite as often with folks shooting other designs -- but there are great shots in all of these groups.

I don't complain because my car goes slower in first gear than second; I learn to shift and adjust.

False analogy. Using a SA gun is more like relying on an automatic transmission that doesn't require you to shift.

If you want to carry it that way, that's your thing. Just call it a preference. If you learned with a single-action or have trained for it, by all means stick with what you know you can bet your life on. I prefer to take advantage of the method that I learned, have no trouble with, and doubt I'll notice the difference in when it comes down to it. Relying on a separate lever is less likely to work in my favor.

It IS a preference -- as is your choice. But you seem to be suggesting that your preference is better for everybody. Why?

You argue that relying on a separate lever is "less likely to work in my favor." Probably true, for you. And, by all means, you should do what works best for YOU. We should note, however, that what works best for you may not be what works best for everybody.

The CZ DA trigger pull IS long. I love CZs, but don't like the long DA pull. Some folks simply can't manage that long pull. It's a characteristic of the design, but other aspects of the design offset that drawback for some of us: superior ergonomics, for one thing. (I've heard more than one shooter say they like the ergonomics of the Baby Eagles, based on the CZ design, even better than the CZ. Could be.)

If you really prefer DA/SA, go for it.

I've got all sorts of guns, and enjoy all of them: Glocks, CZs/CZ clones. BHP, a SIG with a short-reset trigger (tuned by Gray Guns), and SIGs in SA only. I've had other guns, as well. I generally don't like the DA/SA transition -- as it seems to force me to take just a little longer for my second shot than my first one, as I know something is going to be different, and I compensate for it.

One of my favorite guns, right now, is a striker-fired M&P Pro that has a tuned trigger -- it seems the best all-round shooter I've got (even though I've got some guns that cost 2 - 3 times as much.)