Col. Cooper & "Substitute Scouts"

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So, basically, the forward mount scope is just a joke.
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Its not a joke, its just the proverbial horse designed by a committee.

The scout concept makes sense if its the only rifle a guy owns, it can do everything, just nothing particularly well.

Think of a leatherman tool- the utility of the tools on the leatherman aren't very good, most people will never use 1/2 of them, and you wouldn't use it to fix your car at home if you have a toolbox full of craftsman tools in the garage, but it can be handy to do enough things marginally well enough to take with you.

To me owning a scout rifle is pointless, I have over 30 rifles and have at least one in each type of category that would vastly outperformm a scout rifle for each particular purpose. I can see why someone would want one if they need a knockaround rifle that would serve most of their needs.
 
No matter how long I participate in on-line gun forums, they still amaze me.
The same points are covered over and over and over and over. And the very next post will attempt to beat the same dead horse again.
So people are obviously not capable of undertanding the whole concept of a scout rifle.
The scout rifle wouldn't be the perfect rifle for a mountain sheep hunt ?
The scout rifle isn't someone's first choice for an active duty military rifle ?
The scout rifle wouldn't be the first choice for shots in excess of 300 yards ?
The scout rifle can't keep up sustained fire at the same rate as an AR15 ?
The scout rifle isn't a good varmint rifle ?

I rest my case.

"but I don't see anything that says military scouts have used them."
There was a picture in a major news magazine cover of a guy in Bosnia with one. I am sure he isn't the only one.
 
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Bottom line: if you can get close enough to hit an adversary with a single, fatal shot from a Scout Rifle, you probably won't be coming back to tell about it.

Whoever said to come up with a better idea way back in the thread...

It's been done. AR platform, 6.8SPC with an ACOG. Among other things. How many SEALS, exactly, are using Steyr Scouts?

I will stand thoroughly corrected if there are any.
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Isn't the first line of this diatribe contradictory? if you can get close enough to hit an adversary with a single, fatal shot from a Scout Rifle...your adversary is...(ding, ding, ding) DEAD from that fatal shot.

The 6.8SPC is a great idea and with an acog makes a great weapon, no doubt, but it is not a .30 cal so therefore doesn't fall within the realm of THIS discussion (However, if a "scout" uses it to dispatch an adversay at three hundred yards....they are still DEAD).
 
cracked butt said:
I have over 30 rifles and have at least one in each type of category that would vastly outperformm a scout rifle for each particular purpose.
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Right, but do you carry all thirty in with you at any time? That's the point of ONE GENERAL-PURPOSE rifle.

it can do everything, just nothing particularly well.
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if they need a knockaround rifle that would serve most of their needs.
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Which is it, "Does nothing particulary well" or "would serve most of their needs"? Col. Cooper himself said it wasn't particularly suited for varmints, and not heavy enough for the "big four". But that last quote does pretty well sum up the definition of a GP rifle.
 
Just some observations skimming the last couple pages.

The bolt action battle rifle, as some have already pointed, out is alive and well. The Afghans were using .303 SMLEs very effectively against Russian troops in recent history.

The reasons many nations switched to little plastic poodle-shooters is accepted changes in tactics and overall strategies. These compromizes are intended to replace close range weapons like SMGs, and full size battle rifles - usually a circa .30 cartridge. When bolt-actions have been fielded as battle rifles, they were augmented by SMGs, MGs, etc.

Automatic fire with rifles like the FAL is often impractical due to muzzle climb etc, so they are most effective when used semi-automatic. A bolt-action can be cycled as fast as most average shooters can recover a sight picture after the recoil of a .30 caliber rifle like the FAL. So the only advantage of a semi like the FAL becomes increased magazine capacity.

I have not seen it done; but it would be interesting to conduct man vs man - one with Scout-spec bolt-action and one with an AR. The venue would be an informal type range with broken ground, some foliage and other wooden objects simulating structures etc. The more shooters participating, the more objective the exercize would be.

Targets could be steel half circle plates representative of about half a human head; top or side (about what might be visible over or around cover, and sited accordingly). Disposable and more dramatic might be ceramic dinner plates (the covered half protected to keep the exercize objective). The targets could be matt painted flesh colour with hair and other features brushed. Water color paint would be easy to re-apply between shooting relays. Say about twenty targets at ranges between 25 and 300 yards, with targets for each shooter paired at equal ranges sited in similar settings.

This could be modified to "open iron sights only" for those with rifles so equipped, and a binocular allowed to locate targets at longer range.

Limited ammunition supply of say eighty rounds. Match over with first to hit all their targets, or when both shooters had expended all their ammo.
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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
LAK, we do stuff like that. It's called 3gun rifle or USPSA tactical rifle. And its lots of fun. 99% of the good shooters run an AR variant.
 
thereisnospoon said:
Isn't the first line of this diatribe contradictory? if you can get close enough to hit an adversary with a single, fatal shot from a Scout Rifle...your adversary is...(ding, ding, ding) DEAD from that fatal shot.

The 6.8SPC is a great idea and with an acog makes a great weapon, no doubt, but it is not a .30 cal so therefore doesn't fall within the realm of THIS discussion (However, if a "scout" uses it to dispatch an adversay at three hundred yards....they are still DEAD).
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Yup. Your single adversary is dead. The ten other guys with him, who don't have weapons stuck in the 1930s will then riddle the area you're in with, oh, 3000 rounds, before they even have to reload, which they can do in a couple seconds. Assuming they don't have a SAW or something better, like, oh, even obsolete SKS rifles with grenade launchers. Then you will be pelted with grenades.

So, in all the military actions where individual men face off in rugged terrain, the Scout would be an ideal weapon. Not at sniper range, where an adversary with a deer rifle would score the first (and only) kill, and not at close range, where an equally-skilled adversary with a hi-cap semiauto would have a distinct advantage. But at intermediate range, against a single adversary, in rugged terrain...:p
 
So, if you have the right rifle, 10:1 odds are not bad. But if that rifle is a bolt action, you don't have a chance ? :rolleyes:

Think about this senario.
You have 10 men, each armed with a state of the art military rifle: most militarys today are using some M16 varient or some AK varient. These guys are a typical military unit. Some guys are good shots, some are bad, some are mediocre. Some are intelligent, and have common sense, others don't. Some are highly motivated, others don't care...................
You are a single man, armed with a Styer Scout Rifle that you are famliar with.
For some reason you HAVE to engage these men. No choice. No other option.
So, you use your head to think of a plan of attack that isn't suicidal.
Firepower is not the answer. You will not gain fire superiority over a military unit of 10 men no matter what realistic weapon you might have. What good things have you got going for you ? You have the element of surprise. You can choose the battlefield. You have a good accurate rifle which you have trained with. You are a good shot with far more marksmanship training than most soldiers. Your weapon has more range than their weapons. Ah Ha: that's it. Distance is your friend. You fire on them from approx. the riflemen's quarter mile: 500 yards. You are past the effective range of thier weapons for most of the guys shooting back. At that range you are going to have to know where to hold, or have the sight dope, and also take wind into account. The 5.56 in a typical issue load is running out of gas at that range and an AK is out of accuracy at that range. You are firing from a good solid position since you initiated contact and had the element of surprise: they are reacting to you.
And yes, I would be totally confident of being able to make the shots at 500 yards because I regularly practice at that range: often with iron sights. The scope is gravy.

This brings up another minor point: there are a couple threads running right now where some guy got reamed for making the statement that no one can hit anything past 300 yards with iron sights and an M16. It was pointed out to him that every Marine shoots at 500 in boot camp. Every CMP match has a 600 yard stage. There are guys competing with M16s at 1000 yards.
To most of us, these are well known facts.
But, on this thread there are people who don't think you can shoot past 300 yards with a scoped, bolt action, .30 rifle ?
 
ROTFLMAO!

The Kosovo Liberation Army has a Steyr Scout in a picture (along with what appears to be a Vietnam-era M16, an AK, and some other weapons lost in the blur). Note their uniforms as well. These guys (more power to 'em) have whatever equipment they could get. The Austrian mountain sheep hunting rifle appears to be an example.

Ever seen sheep hunters in the mountains above Salzburg? The Scout would, indeed, be a wonderful weapon for that purpose.

And yes, the Afghans used Turkish Mausers, I'm sure. And they were incredible fighters. They used what they could get. Shoulder-fired SAM's, too...
 
444 said:
So, if you have the right rifle, 10:1 odds are not bad. But if that rifle is a bolt action, you don't have a chance ? :rolleyes:
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This sort of deliberate misunderstanding typifies the thread.

Read my post.

You don't have a good chance, either way, obviously. This is why the mission wouldn't exist.

Actually, the mission may well exist, but it's considered a suicide mission. So if you're not planning on walking back, you might as well have a heavier, more accurate rifle with a big scope, so you can be sure that you will make the kill before you die.

And if you're hiding in the woods, alone, firing a rifle at 300 yards at the enemy when you are not under attack is probably a bad way to ensure your survival.:banghead:
 
444 said:
No matter how long I participate in on-line gun forums, they still amaze me.
The same points are covered over and over and over and over. And the very next post will attempt to beat the same dead horse again.
So people are obviously not capable of undertanding the whole concept of a scout rifle.
The scout rifle wouldn't be the perfect rifle for a mountain sheep hunt ?
The scout rifle isn't someone's first choice for an active duty military rifle ?
The scout rifle wouldn't be the first choice for shots in excess of 300 yards ?
The scout rifle can't keep up sustained fire at the same rate as an AR15 ?
The scout rifle isn't a good varmint rifle ?

I rest my case.

"but I don't see anything that says military scouts have used them."
There was a picture in a major news magazine cover of a guy in Bosnia with one. I am sure he isn't the only one.
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So, let me get this straight...

The rifle's real purpose is to cause heated discussion by gun geeks?

Of course it will work as a rifle. It's a rifle.

For the sake of discussion, I say that the ArmedBear Urban Assault Sidearm must be a revolver with a barrel 8.375 inches long (not 8, not 9), double action, 8-shot, in cal. .30 Carbine, with a reflex sight mounted 2.5" in front of the hammer and BUIS, a round butt rubber grip, with a lanyard worn around the neck, weighing 34 ounces, in matte gray stainless steel, and nothing else should be called an ArmedBear Urban Assault Sidearm.

You could argue 'til you're blue in the face that you could use it as a backup gun, for hunting, for Special Ops, as a truck gun, and as an all around holster-filler. And you could argue that people could be killed with it. And you'd be right.

And anyone who suggests that this gun isn't really a great choice for anything, given all the options available, just "doesn't get it."

The only thing standing between my ABUAS and a long, brain-dead Internet thread is that my name isn't Jeff Cooper.:eek:
 
A bolt-action can be cycled as fast as most average shooters can recover a sight picture after the recoil of a .30 caliber rifle like the FAL. So the only advantage of a semi like the FAL becomes increased magazine capacity.
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I used to think this was true. Check out this video (previously posted by DMK). The FAL is firing at least twice as fast as the Enfield, and the Enfield is known to cycle fast.

http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/rifles/fal_enfield.avi
 
roscoe said:
I used to think this was true. Check out this video (previously posted by DMK). The FAL is firing at least twice as fast as the Enfield, and the Enfield is known to cycle fast.

http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/rifles/fal_enfield.avi
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I fail to see how anyone who has shot trap doubles, 5-stand, etc. with a pump shotgun can believe that you can shoot aimed, accurate fire as fast with a bolt gun as with a semiauto.

The semiauto recoil is tamer, even if it is funkier, and you don't have to move either of your hands, so you can recover from recoil more quickly and get back on target. These two factors remain true no matter how fast you can work the manual action.

There are certainly people who can shoot pumps, lever guns, and bolties pretty fast, and hit their targets. I'm not saying they can't.
 
444,

The Steyr (oops, Mannlicher) Scout's biggest deficiency is that the bolt is obviously on the wrong side.:D

Actually, I don't know too many lefties who lived through the bad old days of few and far between LH bolt guns even consider this a drawback.
 
I misquoted Mr Cooper in my earlier thread. Here is the actual quote from his book, The Art Of The Rifle: "The greatest single asset of the personal rifle, to my mind, is that it be "friendly". This is a difficult quality to describe because it is essentially a subjective matter. Nonetheless, it is very important. Your rifle should be your intimate friend and favorite companion. If you do not enjoy playing with it, walking with it, riding with it-it is just not right for you."

I suppose "handiness" can be considered an attribute of
"friendliness".
 
To go along with my 1903 pseudo-Scout, I also have this:

K31-with-forward-scope-otherwise-nothing-at-all-like-a-Scout:
 

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WOW I'm almost afraid to post here because it's getting kind of heated but since I'm out of range :) I'll go for it.

I don't think anyone can prove that one rifle is better than another since it's the person using it that is the major factor involved.

But, as with most of this thread that is just my opinion - most opinions cannot be proved right or wrong.

Now, I always thought the best "scout" rifle should be the remington pump 760 or 7600 with the shorter barrels.

Mine has the 22" barrell and I doubt if it was in .308 instead of 30-06 or had the 16" barrell vs. the 22" it would make much difference when "I" used it.

The features "I" like are the pump action, the accuracy, and the magazine. For "me" its great for Col. Cooper it must not be since I haven't read where he likes the pump rifle. Still one's my opinion and one's his opinion - I say we are both right.

But, my Remington doesn't cost $1800+!
 
vynx said:
The features "I" like are the pump action, the accuracy, and the magazine. For "me" its great for Col. Cooper it must not be since I haven't read where he likes the pump rifle.
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The reason pumps/semi-auto weren't considered was because the actions were to long to make length and weight.

If anyone can find a link to it, Instructor John Farnam has the FDR(Farnam Defense Rifle). A .308 Tanker-style Garand with Scout scope.:D
 
Not at sniper range, where an adversary with a deer rifle would score the first (and only) kill, and not at close range, where an equally-skilled adversary with a hi-cap semiauto would have a distinct advantage.
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Where did that dead horse picture go?

Reverse your scenario; how about:
- using a high-cap semiauto at sniper range?
- using a deer rifle at close range?

Like most detractors, you fall into the trap of "well THIS gun is better than a scout rifle in this scenario, and THAT gun is better than a scout rifle in another scenario..." Well of course they are! The point is the GENERAL scenario of: which ONE gun works sufficiently across ALL scenarios?

I've made sufficiently accurate shots at 600m with a Steyr Scout. I've also done nose-accurate snap shots at 25m the same week with the same gun. I'd rather not (while I could) try to take the 600m shot with iron sights on a high-cap semiauto (mostly as the target would blurr out for me), and likewise for using a deer rifle on a close-range snap shot (again, the 10x scope would show a blur).

Its about GENERAL PURPOSE, not optimized tools for specific tasks. It's the classic "if you could only have one gun" question, as someone keeping a gun handy for general use all the time is unlikely to bring a small armory along so he can choose the best optimized gun for a particular task.
 
To go along with my 1903 pseudo-Scout, I also have this:

K31-with-forward-scope-otherwise-nothing-at-all-like-a-Scout:
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I'd take the scout scope mounted K-31 any day over the steyr and spend the $2000+ I saved on something nice and useful.
 
Accept no substitutes!

Image-2BBFAF5F5A0B11DA.jpg
 
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