College of William & Mary Denies Due Process to Student in Incident w/ CCW Permit

[JohnBT]

"I ask that those conversant with said state's laws chip in"

I'm not going to spend my morning researching specific laws pertaining to Virginia colleges, but I have some experience with campus regulations having completed a B.S. at Virginia Tech, an M.S. at Virginia Commonwealth and 30 years(and counting) as a state employee who has been involved with numerous clients attending a wide variety of state colleges.

My conclusion? He's up the creek and not just because W&M is one of the state's liberal hotbeds. He violated school policy and got caught. It can be fought, but who knows how long that will take. Months? Years?

I have a word of advice for anybody attending a party during this holiday season who decides to urinate in a cup and carry it outside. Sink.

John

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I think that failing to cite sources could fall under plagiarism, which I believe is illegal.

Nope, I'm pretty sure it's not. Academic dishonesty is despicable, but not illegal.

Violating a copyright is not criminal, but it is actionable, but that's a horse of a different color.

What I was trying to illustrate is this: a school may have rules above and beyond state law, unless specifically forbidden by preemption laws.

As for VA law § 15.2-915: I read it, and it refers to "localities." I don't think that includes public universities, but I Am Not A Lawyer. Any legal beagles wish to chime in?

 

[WMC]

Localities...

Just for reference, I'll paste the whole code here and talk about it below.

§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.



Ok, there are two options here as I see it: the school is a locality, or it is an arm of the state govt.

The College has its own police force and issues its own campus-wide trespass warnings to those who it doesn't like (often local high schoolers) who are caught on campus. Ignoring that the campus is public property, this seems to lean towards the College acting as its own locality, in which case, they can't regulate guns past what state law says.

On the other hand, I've heard it referred to as an arm of the state gov't by a state delegate. In that case, it would seem to be that the College, as a part of the state, needs to be in compliance with state law. To my knowledge, the precedent for this would be the state parks after the preemption law took effect last summer- the parks tried to keep gun bans/restrictions up, but as an arm of the state govt, were ordered by the Atty Gen to stay in line with state law. If this is the case, the College loses.

Something else interesting is that if neither of these apply as I see them, the code states that "[t]he provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority..." This being the case, the Judicial Council of the College (and administration and police) would certainly seem to fit the definition of an authority, in which case, the College loses.

 

[only1asterisk]

New students are often required to sign contracts promising to abide by university policies. If you agree to be held accountable to a higher standard than the law permits, it's your own fault. In addition, while I don't agree with restrictions, property holders have the right to limit carry on their premises. I don't know that VA preemption can be applied to the school. It would seem to only IF the school were seen as a goverment or authority.


David

 

[WMC]

The Handbook

asterisk-
You bring up a good point. However, it explicitly states in the Student Handbook the following:
"Students, faculty, and administrators (hereinafter the "members of the College community") shall enjoy all rights, privileges, and immuniities guaranteed to every citizen of the United States and the Commonwealth of Virginia...The institution and those who administer its affairs have a special responsibility to ensure that, in pursuance of its functions, the rights of all members of the College community are preserved...No rules, regulation, policy, or procedure which is incompatible with or which contradicts this document may be enacted...
I
The members of the College community, as individuals, shall enjoy all rights, privileges, and immunities guaranteed every citizen of the United States and the commonwealth of Virginia."


Seems pretty clear to me. It was written by our current VP for Student Affairs. Considering that RKBA is just that, a right, the College loses by its own Handbook.

The full handbook can be found here. I quoted from p. 47 of the PDF file.
http://www.wm.edu/deanofstudents/handbook/stuhb0405.pdf

 

[only1asterisk]

WMC,

It appears you haven't yet read page 71. The pretty text of the page you quoted is belied by what follows. Most of your "rights" are curtailed (at least where the university policy and its enforcement is concerned, your LEGAL rights remain the same) when they are enumerated here.

David

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Yeo. Although page 47 looks great, there's lots of weasel language on page 48...

...Right, when charged or convicted of violation of general law, to be free of
College discipline for the same conduct, unless such discipline by the College
community is determined to be for the protection of other members of the College
community or the safeguarding of the educational process. Such determination
shall be made by the appropriate College authority designated by the
President.

Bummer. You have rights -- unless we decide you don't.

 

[big poppa]

if he was a ccw holder he,s not supposed to go anywhere their serving alcohol while carrying,shooting in the air, baseballers or not is a no-no.and as one of the more liberal collages in virginia,i think their going to make an example outta this kid

 

[JohnBT]

We can carry where alcohol is served as long as it isn't a place with an ABC license. For instance, I can attend my neighbors' XMAS parties.

Back to the debate: He left a loaded gun in a trash can? This should make for interesting testimony. I wonder what a jury will think if the case is pushed that far.

John

 

[JohnBT]

Okay, so I went the Commonwealth's Adminstrative Code site and did a search on William and Mary. The first result I clicked on provided some useful info.

"The board of visitors or other governing body of every state-supported institution of higher education in Virginia is authorized to establish rules and regulations for the acceptance of students; for the conduct of students and the suspension and dismissal of students who fail or refuse to abide by such rules; for the rescission or restriction of financial aid; for the employment of professors, teachers, instructors and all other employees; and for parking and traffic on property owned by the institution. In addition, the board of visitors or other governing body is authorized to establish programs to promote compliance among students with laws relating to the use of alcoholic beverages and to establish guidelines for the initiation or induction into any social fraternity or sorority. Code of Virginia, Title 23, Chapter 1.

Regulations may be obtained from The College of William and Mary, P.O. Box 8795, Williamsburg, VA 23187. Internet address: http://www.wm.edu/"

 

[SUE ROVR]

Repeat after me:

I felt my life was in jeopardy. I was out number, physicaly assaulted and battered. I tried to retreat, but they chased me and caught me.

This is probably a defense to both the discharge and brandishing.

GET A GOOD LAWYER NOW! NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!!!!!

Listen to him/her. SAY NOTHING SAY NOTHING. You should not have said anything when you were first caught.

Personally I think you could have legally shot them. You were outnumbered, beanten, tried to retreat, whats left . . .

The lawyer will make it clear to William and Larry that any action they take adverse to you WILL result in a civil suit to the university AND the to the individuals involved.

As far as I can tell you did not violate anything in the schools rules as you were off campus, while there is that weasel provision, if the charges get dropped, as they should, I would push the issue. Remeber SUE and ???? happens, complaints only fall on deaf ears.

BTW should have went to W&L

 

[SUE ROVR]

The depravation of due process was the elimination of an OPEN hearing.

I am sure the reason he did not attend was it was closed, he may have been denied represenation and especailly the hired recorders were denied access.

I have been in some of these hearings as an advocate and I will tell you they are designed to screw the student.

Stop screwing around and file suit.

Push to get the charges dropped. Self defense is a defense to brandishing and discharge and on the facts it seems pretty clear it applies.

 

[tyme]

Look at the bright side. Nobody got killed or seriously injured, and you're not facing serious charges like aggravated assault or some variety of homicide.

I've seen the results of college (and highschool, for that matter) disciplinary hearings. They are a joke. I've never seen a private college apply its disciplinary procedures fairly for anything other than typical problems like underage drinking. I'm sure colleges manage to dispense justice occassionally, but all the instances I've seen have been unjust. You have to treat a college as a creature. It's concerned that it will be hurt from bad publicity or perhaps even lawsuits if it doesn't do something to punish you. Consider working from that frame of mind. I believe it's the only way to convince a college of anything.

Even if you can do something about that hearing, it may not be resolved quickly. I'm sure you're focusing on the criminal charges, and you should be.

Good luck. Keep a positive attitude.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

As far as I can tell you did not violate anything in the schools rules as you were off campus,

I think, Sue, that you missed the part where James entered the campus and left his autopistol in a garbage can in a lavatory.