Colt Dragoons Purpose?

[PainlessWolf]

Good morning,
Just own both and enjoy as the mood strikes you as to which to shoot. I love the modified loading lever on my Goonerized Walker and then there are days when the Colts Whitneyville-Hartford Dragoon feels best in my hand.
regards!

 

[rodwha]

I'd like to see how your Walker's lever was modified.

 

[Blackpowdershooter44]

I'd like to see how your Walker's lever was modified.

I would as well.

 

[PainlessWolf]

Good afternoon, Gentlemen,
The loading lever was replaced by the previous owner with a 1st dragoon type which has a positive latch. The original loading lever latch is still in place as well. This modification provided a very strong latchup. My lever never drops no matter that I am firing 60 grain full loads. Pic with apologies to the OP.
regards,

 

[CraigC]

I don't know what "facts" you are referring to.

The FACT that the 3rd model Dragoon is the ultimate incarnation of the revolving horse pistol. As I've said three times now, it has nearly the power of the Walker with all of the kinks worked out. Those are all facts.

The difference between the Dragoon and the Walker is the same as that between the Dragoon and 1858, ten grains of powder. You do realize that that quarter inch and 10gr difference amounts to 25%, right?

It doesn't pack any more power than a 1858 Remington 'cylinder size is the same'.

Wrong.

And weighs more and is unwieldy.

Only thing you got close to right. It is heavy but how unwieldy it is depends on the individual.

Now i'm trying to think objectively so i'm excluding historical provenance and personal preference.

Not from where I'm sitting.

And i'm not saying i dislike the gun because i actually really like it.

Could have fooled me.

And yes i know that was true 150 years ago when the walkers were grenading.

That wasn't the only issue with the Walker.

But in the Modern day i think the walker is a much superior gun to own if you had to choose between the two. Its size and weight actually serves a purpose.

Only if you completely ignore every improvement that went into the final design of the Dragoon and exaggerate the trivial difference in "power".

So to be clear i'm just responding to the debate and trying to say 'in my opinion' the walker in the modern day is vastly superior.

That is your opinion and that is fine. I don't agree for several reasons and many of those reasons are based on facts. Some on preference.

Which contradicts about all the forum posts i ever read about the walker.

So you think you know better than all the rest of us?

It's longer barrel and more importantly cylinder give it unrivaled power.

This is a gross exaggeration. No one disputes the gain in power with the Walker. Just as few dispute the other advantages to the Dragoon. Having owned, used and carried both, I prefer the Dragoon.

You asked a loaded question, with an opening post loaded with erroneous declarations and now argue with anyone who doesn't agree?

 

[mr wack]

Nice pair you have there sir,,,, me likes..

 

[Panzerschwein]

I love those guns!

 

[mec]

The swiss powder loads for the various .44s that were posted earlier were thrown from a graduated measure set at the nominal weights later provided in another post. One of the posters expressed mistrust of the data and all I can say to that is we chronographed the loads without any other agenda than to find out how fast they were going and how consistent they were shot to shot in a string. We had no reason to lie about the results.

In practice, Swiss powder is denser than goex and the weight is a bit heavier for the same volume. A charge of Swiss from a measure that throws say, 50 grains of goex fffg might throw 52 grains of Swiss (approx.) Swiss powder is more energetic than Goex and provides higher velocities. even when they are loaded weight for weight instead of tossed from the same volume measure.

The pyrodex P we were using loaded from the same volume measures as Swiss FFFG provided very similar results. Published date from gunwriters from a decade or so before suggests that Pyrodex P might have performed more like Goex at that time.
Over time we re-chronographed some of the same charges -sometimes with variations including use or omission of felt wads and various ball diameters. In generally, the results remained quite consistent.
The Swiss FFFG for the listed loads likely came from the same can and all of our swiss powder was bought in a single batch -almost certainly from the same lot.

 

[rodwha]

Thanks for the clarification Mike. I was curious about the same powders/lot.

 

[jmar]

CraigC. Whats your problem man? All you are doing is taking my posts out of context then replying with an even more out of context response. This was supposed to be just a friendly debate comparing the to guns and you are getting extremely heated.

The FACT that the 3rd model Dragoon is the ultimate incarnation of the revolving horse pistol. As I've said three times now, it has nearly the power of the Walker with all of the kinks worked out. Those are all facts.

The difference between the Dragoon and the Walker is the same as that between the Dragoon and 1858, ten grains of powder. You do realize that that quarter inch and 10gr difference amounts to 25%, right?

NO it is not a fact that the 3rd model dragoon is the ultimate horse pistol. Opinion. My argument is that the gun that could take down a horse better would be the ultimate horse pistol, not the one that is the most comfy. 'and yes i know that's not the reason they're called horse pistols'. You are the one saying the Dragoon has significantly more power than the 1858 then immediately downplaying the even greater difference between the Walker.
Your words from earlier in the thread:

that quarter inch you keep trivializing is a significant difference

Only thing you got close to right. It is heavy but how unwieldy it is depends on the individual.

Okay thanks for your input. Same applies to the Walker on an individual basis, also slightly condescending.

Not from where I'm sitting.

Again slightly condescending. I said that to preface that i'm not talking about which gun was best for a cowboy in 1850. I said it to show i'm debating the best modern replica bang for your buck. Just not sure what you're getting at.

Could have fooled me.

Guess what? Unwarranted rudeness yet again. I actually bought a Dragoon! And bought it because i thought i would prefer it to the Walker. So no i actually have no bias.

That wasn't the only issue with the Walker.

Respect your opinion Sir, but i see no marginal improvements in design in the Dragoon.

Only if you completely ignore every improvement that went into the final design of the Dragoon and exaggerate the trivial difference in "power".

Again opinion, which is fine as this is a debate but don't act like your opinions are gospel. I see no major improvements in the Dragoon besides being slightly less nose heavy that would warrant giving away 1/5 the power potential.

-Handles, everyone has different hands so no point in talking about this.

-Loading lever, only some Walkers have this issue, some Dragoons have it as well. Filling a better notch or swapping the catch to is easy and not always even necessary.

-Cylinder notches, not a big deal...

-Trigger guard. Personal preference, i think squarebacks are more aesthetically pleasing.

That is your opinion and that is fine. I don't agree for several reasons and many of those reasons are based on facts. Some on preference.

Right back at ya.

So you think you know better than all the rest of us?

What? I really don't know what you're getting at and don't know how to respond. I'll just post my full message that you took out of context so you or someone can help me understand.

-Me "So to be clear i'm just responding to the debate and trying to say 'in my opinion' the walker in the modern day is vastly superior. Which contradicts about all the forum posts i ever read about the walker."

This is a gross exaggeration. No one disputes the gain in power with the Walker. Just as few dispute the other advantages to the Dragoon. Having owned, used and carried both, I prefer the Dragoon.

You asked a loaded question, with an opening post loaded with erroneous declarations and now argue with anyone who doesn't agree?

Okay, how is this an exaggeration? Unrivaled means, not met or exceeded by any other. Show me a cap and ball revolver that is... I said that because owning the most powerful BP revolver is cool in itself. And of course i'll argue just as you are. Saying someone else shouldn't have an option to argue their side is quite autocratic.



So basically your argument is the Dragoon is more refined while sacrificing Power. Mine is that that Walkers more powerful and doesn't need minor refinements to be a great gun. Both sides are completely valid yet you are really being dismissive about mine in that post. Cant we all just be friends?

 

[jmar]

The swiss powder loads for the various .44s that were posted earlier were thrown from a graduated measure set at the nominal weights later provided in another post. One of the posters expressed mistrust of the data and all I can say to that is we chronographed the loads without any other agenda than to find out how fast they were going and how consistent they were shot to shot in a string. We had no reason to lie about the results.

In practice, Swiss powder is denser than goex and the weight is a bit heavier for the same volume. A charge of Swiss from a measure that throws say, 50 grains of goex fffg might throw 52 grains of Swiss (approx.) Swiss powder is more energetic than Goex and provides higher velocities. even when they are loaded weight for weight instead of tossed from the same volume measure.

The pyrodex P we were using loaded from the same volume measures as Swiss FFFG provided very similar results. Published date from gunwriters from a decade or so before suggests that Pyrodex P might have performed more like Goex at that time.
Over time we re-chronographed some of the same charges -sometimes with variations including use or omission of felt wads and various ball diameters. In generally, the results remained quite consistent.
The Swiss FFFG for the listed loads likely came from the same can and all of our swiss powder was bought in a single batch -almost certainly from the same lot.

Thanks that really helps. It wasn't mistrust just more confusion/skepticism. As i said it's very hard knowing what to trust as everyone seems to get different numbers. Especially if there's no important info like you just posted.
For example this guy gets 1400FPS With Goex in his Walker... https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/original-hand-cannon-ffl-required/

 

[jmar]

Good afternoon, Gentlemen,
The loading lever was replaced by the previous owner with a 1st dragoon type which has a positive latch. The original loading lever latch is still in place as well. This modification provided a very strong latchup. My lever never drops no matter that I am firing 60 grain full loads. Pic with apologies to the OP.
regards,

Very nice! If i get a walker i'll most likely do this mod.

 

[CraigC]

I wish I had read this thread before responding here, where our illustrious OP insulted folks who have forgotten 100x what jmar (who must be very young) will ever know. This is a waste of keystrokes.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=799239

 

[Malamute]

For example this guy gets 1400FPS With Goex in his Walker... https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ori...-ffl-required/

I question his results, they are noticeably higher than results with better grade powder. I think if he backed away from the chronograph screens the reading would drop. Being too close with some loads can give false readings from the muzzle blast. Ive heard of it a number of times.


Edit:

I wish I had read this thread before responding here, where our illustrious OP insulted folks who have forgotten 100x what jmar (who must be very young) will ever know. This is a waste of keystrokes.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=799239

Ah, I recall that. Same guy. Right. I'm done here.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Well,
The average man at that time was smaller so reduction in size and weight was probably pretty significant ( folks complain about that even today). Apparently the civilian market thought so to as the popularity for the Dragoon grew rapidly. Many went west with the expansion and folks wanted a powerful handgun. Also, at that time what we're you going to compare the Walker to?
As a tuner, I would say a hammer roll (the little wheel on the hammer) was definitely another significant addition. I believe all S.A.s since have had a hammer roll.
The move from a V spring to a flat main spring was a significant step. Again, that became the standard.
Changing the oval cylinder locking notches with the rectangular notches was another very significant upgrade. Much more surface area as well as a bolt with 2-3 times more material.
Also, a slotted hammer face and safety pins in the cylinder I would consider pretty significant, especially for the time. All these became the standard setup for the open top series revolvers.
The Dragoon was the "frontier" S.A. that set the stage for the rest of the various production models.
So, I would say the Dragoon is arguably the most important test bed Colt had.
BTW, Colt liked small revolvers but his favorite was the highly successful 3rd Mod. Dragoon. I say good choice !!!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[mec]

The Walkers, Transitions and Dragoons were "holster pistols" meant to be carried in saddle-mounted holsters like the aston johnsons and flintlocks they replaced. Some of the Texans remembered or were familiar with the patersons still in use. In 1848, Captain J.E. Johnson who was mapping Indian trails in and out of Mexico reported to congress that he wanted a return to the smaller revolvers and round ball loads which were easier to load and more effective and the holster revolvers had to be large enough significant charges with the picket bullets. -From The Colt Whitneyville Walker Revolver by Lt Colonel Robert Lee Whittington III

 

[45 Dragoon]

I believe they used pommel holsters and yes, the idea was that the horse would carry them. The problem was, they could never teach the horse to shoot well enough to be effective so, the men (smaller back then) still had to hold them and shoot them.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[Crawdad1]

Come on guys, that's a little harsh, ain't it?

He's definitely hardheaded but no troll.

 

[45 Dragoon]

I messed up.

 

[CraigC]

Come on guys, that's a little harsh, ain't it?

He's definitely hardheaded but no troll.

Being hardheaded is fine if you have the knowledge and experience to back it up. It's just irritating when you don't.

 

[Crawdad1]

Being hardheaded is fine if you have the knowledge and experience to back it up. It's just irritating when you don't.

I agree completely.

 

[jmar]

Being hardheaded is fine if you have the knowledge and experience to back it up. It's just irritating when you don't.

Hmm seems ironic to me. Because every time i read one of your posts i have to thrust my face into my palm in disbelief. Perhaps instead of reading my comments and picturing a drooling idiot in your head have some perspective and just picture a normal person, i gave you that luxury 'key word somewhere there'. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and give everyone the time of day regardless of post count or join date. But whatever i'm done responding to discourteous people like you, you get the same treatment as others did in the thread you posted in attempt to have me teased more. All posts you make will be ignored until the end of time unless you have something smart to say. People like you, as no matter what i say you will always act superior and dismiss everything i say. Even though i've done over 50 hours of research alone on the walker as well as countless others on other BP revolvers including recently going to a museum and talking over 300 photos.

Sorry if this crosses the line moderators, my biggest fault is i lack the ability not to stand up for myself.

 

[CraigC]

Your problem is, just as in the other thread, you have people who know better trying to share their knowledge with you but you have already made your mind up. Your assertions are all wrong but you don't want to hear that. The folks here are trying to educate you and you're fighting it every step of the way. If you think that's people picking on you, I don't even know what to say. Except that if you are going to argue with people who know better, you will have an uphill climb wherever you go but you'll get nowhere. I have no desire or inclination to try to make myself feel or appear superior to you or anyone else. I just simply don't have the patience for discussions like this.

 

[Malamute]

Need a Like button. ^^^

 

[LonesomePigeon]

The powder capacity was what I found with an internet search, the weights were taken from Dixie Gun Works catalog. Hopefully the math is in the ballpark, corrections welcome.

1858 Remington/1860 Army.......40 grains................2.75 pounds.
Dragoon.............................50grains................4 pounds
Walker...............................60 grains...............4.5 pounds.

A Dragoon holds 25% more powder and weighs 45% more than the 1858 Remington/1860 Army.

A Walker hold 50% more powder and weighs 65% more than the 1858 Remington/1860 Army.

A Walker holds 20% more powder and weighs 12.5% more than a Dragoon.