Comments on National Park Carry

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Sheldon J

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OK people it is time to send in comments on the National park carry, please use the provided links submissions, and just for giggles here is what I have sent them...

Honorable Committee:
over the years I have visited a great many of our National Parks many times, and have noted with great despair the alarming increases in crime. Although our park rangers do a outstanding job with the manpower and equipment they have they are a finite source and simply put cannot be every where at once.

That leaves the safety of the individual and their loved ones to that individual, and while the law abiding citizen will by nature obey the rules and regulations, Criminals by their nature will not, and there in lies the conundrum.

Allowing the private citizen that is licensed to continue to carry their fire firearm while in the boundaries of our National parks would greatly lead to increased security and safety for all who visit our county, and I can over state my support and hope for yours as well

Thank You for your time and consideration.

Link to site to make your comment... FWS-R9-NSR-2008-0062
 
Last edited:
link to Federal Register document
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubl...53d497&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf

relevant section

50 CFR Part 27
Section 27.42—Firearms
The current regulation in Section
27.42 generally prohibits visitors from
possessing an operable and loaded
firearm in a national wildlife refuge
unless the firearm is used for lawful
hunting activities. Under the proposed
amendment, an individual will be able
to possess, carry, and transport
concealed, loaded, and operable
firearms within a national wildlife
refuge in the same manner, and to the
same extent, that a person may lawfully
possess, carry, and transport concealed,
loaded and operable firearms in any
state wildlife refuge, or any functionally
similar unit of state land, in the state in
which the national wildlife refuge, or
that portion thereof, is located.
Functionally similar state lands will
include, but not be limited to State
wildlife management areas and state
game areas. Possession of concealed
firearms in national wildlife refuges as
authorized by this section must also
conform to applicable federal laws.
 
My comments:

Dear Sir or Madam.

Please support the proposed amendment of 50 CFR Part 27, Section 27.42—Firearms, as reported in the Federal Register at 73 FR 23389.

I strongly encourage you to take all possible steps to ensure that persons be permitted to lawfully carry firearms on federal property as proposed by the National Park Service in the Proposed Rule cited above.
 
My comment:
The new rules should not specifically address "concealed" weapons. Most states
do not require that weapons carried for defense be concealed. The National
Parks should not require concealment.

The new rules make no mention of carrying weapons into the federally owned
buildings within the National Parks. Anyone carrying a weapon in an otherwise
legal manner should be able to carry it into the buildings in the parks, in
accordance with their state's laws. Otherwise, the new rule isn't very useful.
 
Yes, but the clashing gears and smoking furnaces of the Activism Forum are starving and must be fed.

Feed the Beast!
 
I just got this from the NRA-ILA:


Time For Public Comment On New Rules For Guns In National Parks

Friday, May 02, 2008

On April 30, the U.S. Department of Interior, through the National Park Service and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, issued a proposed rule to amend the current strict regulations on firearms in national parks and wildlife refuges. NRA-ILA led the effort to amend the existing policy regarding the carrying and transportation of firearms on these federal lands. The public has until June 30 to comment on the proposal, and NRA-ILA strongly urges members to file comments in support.

“Law-abiding citizens should not be prohibited from protecting themselves and their families while enjoying America's National Parks and wildlife refuges,” said NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox. “Under this proposal, federal parks and wildlife refuges will mirror the state carry laws for state parks. This is an important step in the right direction, and we applaud efforts to amend the out-of-date regulations.”

These new regulations will provide uniformity across our nation’s federal lands and put an end to the patchwork of regulations that governed different lands managed by different federal agencies. In the past, Bureau of Land Management and Forest Service lands allowed the carrying of firearms, while Park Service and Fish and Wildlife Service lands did not.

The current regulations on possession, carry or transportation of loaded or uncased firearms in national parks were proposed in 1982 and finalized in 1983. Similar restrictions apply in national wildlife refuges.

The NRA has long held that amendments to those regulations were needed to reflect changes in state laws on carrying firearms. As of the end of 1982, only six states routinely allowed citizens to carry handguns for self-defense. Now, there are 40 states that respect the right to carry, via “shall issue” laws or otherwise.

This proposed rule will restore the rights of law-abiding gun owners who wish to carry concealed firearms for self-protection on most Interior Department lands, and will make federal law consistent with the state carry law in which these lands are located. Fifty-one U.S. Senators sent a bipartisan letter to the Department of Interior supporting the move to make state firearms laws applicable to National Park lands and wildlife refuges.

Anti-gun groups have already geared up a massive propaganda campaign, with Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., calling the proposal “appalling” and others suggesting there will be carnage among both park visitors and wildlife if the proposal is adopted. These predictions, of course, have not come true in any state that’s adopted a Right-to-Carry law, or on other federal lands where firearms possession is already allowed.

The NRA will file comments, including suggestions that the final regulation should mirror state law in all respects (not just for concealed carry), and that the proposal’s reference to state laws on parks or “any similar unit of state land” is vague, and could lead in some states to the type of patchwork regulation the proposal was meant to do away with.

Again, NRA members should take this opportunity to help write our nation’s laws, by submitting comments until June 30. Members should submit comments online here, or mail comments to:

Public Comments Processing
Attn: 1024-AD70
Division of Policy and Directives Management
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
4401 N. Fairfax Drive, Suite 222
Arlington, VA 22203

And THIS is the letter I submitted:

For decades the rate of crime in rural areas has been creeping upwards. Mostly this is due to a combination of factors: Drug cartels seeking areas to refine and manufacture where law enforcement is thin and curiosity by locals is containable. Illegal immigration is a huge portion of the reason along the borders and many of our national parks are part of a sort of underground railroad path for these illegals to make the journey north. An important part of this network of trails and paths cuts through our national parks and forests and the SPINE of the network is called the "Appalachian Trail" in the east and the "Pacific Crest" in the western part of the country. These trails are isolated but maintained by the National Park Service. But due to manpower shortages and budget constraints you could spend weeks on the trails before you see a park employee. However you'll see other hikers daily and a certain percentage of these stand to be predators.

Many of these people are hardened criminals who won't hesitate to take the life of a law enforcement officer not to mention a helpless citizen. The rates for forcible rape in these situations are truly horrifying. Drug smugglers often take the same routes and have the same issues. In the woods there is no way for 911 to be effective and many times a cell signal isn't going to be attainable anyway due to the terrain and isolation of the caller. The only recourse for law abiding citizens in these areas who wish to lawfully partake of the magnificent outdoor experiences afforded by our park system is to use the same means they have to protect their families in the home: A firearm. Allowing holders of state concealed weapons permits to have ready access inside a national park is an important method of deterrence to all groups of those who would prey upon the innocent.

Especially in light of the fact that the actual numbers who DO carry a concealed permit into a park or other venue will be miniscule in light of the benefits derived in that the criminals won't KNOW who has the gun so it becomes a deadly shell game for them with the odds against their best interests. Speaking as a former State of Florida Parole and Probation Officer I have it directly from the mouths of the felons that such a scenario represents a nightmare for the prospects of shearing the "sheep" in safety.

Looking at the rates for the state of FLORIDA in relation to the revocation of concealed firearms permits revoked for cause we get an astute answer to the detractors of this common sense measure:

Out of over 1.3 million licenses issued since 1987, only 165 were revoked because of firearms used. That means that only about 1 out of every 7878 licensees committed a violent act with a gun. Hmm, that would be .01269%. Pretty small numbers. In the light of doing the "people's business" such numbers don't even make a blip on the radar. In fact I would consider any politician who sees otherwise as a self declared opponent to the mere PREAMBLE to the US Constitution!

Moreover, the Recreational Vehicles that simply pull into a campground for a weekend of respite from the noise and hazards of the city should and indeed MUST be afforded the same rights to self defense and defense of family. This is especially important since an RV is able to be declared a "second home" by the IRS and the interest payments are deductible in the same fashion.

Ladies and gentlemen thank you for taking the time to listen to these arguments in favor of allowing people who are holders of concealed weapons permits the right to self defense in our national parks and for those who are enjoying the comforts of a moveable SECOND HOME the same rights they enjoy in the fixed version.
 
The new rules make no mention of carrying weapons into the federally owned
buildings within the National Parks. Anyone carrying a weapon in an otherwise
legal manner should be able to carry it into the buildings in the parks, in
accordance with their state's laws. Otherwise, the new rule isn't very useful.

The prohibition on carrying into a federal facility is in the US Code so this regualtion cannot, and will not supercede it. There is a lawful purpose exception.

If you're going to comment - and I sincerely hope you do - PLEASE ask that the "analogous state lands" language be removed!

Posted again: http://www.bighammer.net/Frame-24-timelinepage24.html?
 
The new rules should not specifically address "concealed" weapons. Most states do not require that weapons carried for defense be concealed. The National Parks should not require concealment.
Very well said. Please, when you comment, address this.

In open carry states like Arizona, many people carry without a CCW. Don't forget them. When you make your comment, put in a plug for them, please.
 
Ok, I'm a little lost here. I'm composing my letter, and I need to figure out exactly how to phrase it.

What exactly am I asking them to do, regarding this pesky "analogous state lands" language? Just remove those three words and that's all?

By the way, anyhow know how to get ahold of the owner of bighammer.net? The Contact page is busted. I was gonna ask him this question...
 
Ok, I'm a little lost here. I'm composing my letter, and I need to figure out exactly how to phrase it.

Use the suggested rewording available here or from the VA Alert. The reworded regulation is the same from both sources.

What exactly am I asking them to do, regarding this pesky "analogous state lands" language? Just remove those three words and that's all?

That's not *exactly* all, but that's the major portion of it. The reworded regulation from bighammer.net & VCDL is the DOI promulgated regulation language stripped to conform to what the Senate & VCDL led petitioners requested.

By the way, anyhow know how to get ahold of the owner of bighammer.net?

As a matter of fact, I do.

The Contact page is busted.
<scratches head ... checks link ... Yup, sure enough. Cursed spammers>

Fixed now.

I was gonna ask him this question...

Let me know if you need more info.
:)
 
Thanks! Funny running into you here. Great site, by the way. Thanks for all your help!

The contact link on the bottom of the timeline is working now. Much better, thanks! FYI, the link labeled "Contact Page" on the main frame is still wonky.

I'm still lost. And here's why. I had read the timeline before, and the reason I was going to contact you is to ask you this: There's a lot of stuff after "Bighammer.net comments". Is that all meant to be sent to the government, or is some of it "sidebar?"

I haven't seen the VA Alert, and don't know where to find it. A link to it would be a great service.
 
Answered my own question. Found the VA Alert:
As you know, the Department of the Interior (DOI) has finally
published a proposed change to the National Park and National Wildlife
Refuge rules.

The question is -- Does this DOI change fairly address either the
concerns expressed in a letter signed by 51 Senators or VCDL's
Petition for Rule Making (PRM)?

-- The letter signed by the 51 Senators states that they support "an
exception...to allow law-abiding citizens to transport and carry
firearms consistent with state law where the National Park Service's
sites and the National Wildlife Refuges are located."

-- The Petition for Rule Making (PRM) submitted by VCDL requested
DOI regulations be modified to "permit citizens to carry operational
handguns for personal protection in National Parks, consistent with
the laws of the state in which the park is located".

Does DOI's proposed change do either of the above? NO!

Instead, the DOI change is nothing more than a token effort to appease
both a majority of the United States Senate and over a million gun
owners while still retaining their "if you have a loaded firearm,
you're a poacher" attitude.

So, VCDL is asking you to do the following:

Respond to the DOI's request for input to its proposed rule by
politely urging them to assimilate state firearms laws for ALL law-
abiding gun owners where the National Park Service's sites and the
National Wildlife Refuges are located.

To send in your comments to the DOI, click here:

http://tinyurl.com/5juwn3

Copy and paste the following text into the "General Comments" box and
then "Next Step" at the bottom to continue.

Suggested "General Comments" text:

--

The proposed rule falls far short of what Senator Crapo's letter to
DOI on December 14th, 2007 requested. The letter, signed by 51
Senators, asked that National Parks and National Wildlife Refuges
assimilate the host state's gun laws.

The rule also falls far short of the Virginia Citizens Defense
League's Petition for Rule Making sent to DOI and dated January 19,
2008. Like Senator Crapo's letter, the Petition, representing over
one million gun owners, requested that the gun laws for the host state
be assimilated.

The proposed rule needs to assimilate state law in a similar manner as
National Forests do for the lawful carry of weapons for self-defense.
That would make the rules for such carriage of self-defense weapons in
National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges and National Forests the
same and consistent with the laws of the state surrounding the parks
and refuges.

Please change the wording of the rules as follows, which would make
the regulation of carry commensurate with standards of the host state,
while removing the nebulous and confusing wording about "similar
lands." Existing poaching laws will serve to deter poaching in
National Parks and Wildlife Refuges, just as they do on state land:

"A person may possess, carry, and transport loaded, and operable
firearms or other weapons within a national park area in the same
manner, and to the same extent, that a person may lawfully possess,
carry, and transport loaded and operable firearms or other weapons in
the state in which the federal park, or that portion thereof, is
located, provided that such possession, carrying and transporting
otherwise complies with applicable federal and state law."

And for National Wildlife Refuges:

"A person may possess, carry, and transport loaded, and operable
firearms or other weapons within a national wildlife refuge area in
the same manner, and to the same extent, that a person may lawfully
possess, carry, and transport loaded and operable firearms or other
weapons in the state in which the federal wildlife refuge, or that
portion thereof, is located, provided that such possession, carrying
and transporting otherwise complies with applicable federal and state
law."

-------------------------------------------
***************************************************************************
 
Putting this one back one page one. Two weeks left to make your comments. When commenting, I suggest that you ask for two things:

1. Remove the CCW requirement.
2. Remove the "analogous state lands" language."
 
It still needs tweaking!

The proposed rule needs to assimilate state law in a similar manner as
National Forests do for the lawful carry of weapons for self-defense.
That would make the rules for such carriage of self-defense weapons in
National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges and National Forests the
same and consistent with the laws of the state surrounding the parks
and refuges.

Please change the wording of the rules as follows, which would make
the regulation of carry commensurate with standards of the host state,
while removing the nebulous and confusing wording about "similar
lands." Existing poaching laws will serve to deter poaching in
National Parks and Wildlife Refuges, just as they do on state land:

"A person may possess, carry, and transport loaded, and operable
firearms or other weapons within a national park area in the same
manner, and to the same extent, that a person may lawfully possess,
carry, and transport loaded and operable firearms or other weapons in
the state in which the federal park, or that portion thereof, is
located, provided that such possession, carrying and transporting
otherwise complies with applicable federal and state law."

And for National Wildlife Refuges:

"A person may possess, carry, and transport loaded, and operable
firearms or other weapons within a national wildlife refuge area in
the same manner, and to the same extent, that a person may lawfully
possess, carry, and transport loaded and operable firearms or other
weapons in the state in which the federal wildlife refuge, or that
portion thereof, is located, provided that such possession, carrying
and transporting otherwise complies with applicable federal and state
law."

in the same manner, and to the same extent, that a person may lawfully possess, carry, and transport loaded and operable firearms or other weapons in the state in which the federal park, or that portion thereof, is located, provided that such possession, carrying and transporting otherwise complies with applicable federal and state law still needs to be tweaked.

Here's the spot that needs attention:
provided that such possession, carrying and transporting otherwise complies with applicable federal and state law. As long as the rule addresses both federal and state lasw at the same time, we are going to be prohibited from any kind of carry in NPS buildings, including vistors' centers and public restrooms, as well as picnic shelters and hiking shelters.

The new regulation needs to permit carry in the same manner and to the same extent as carry under the laws of the host state. With the exception of places where state borders are crossed by stepping one foot in front of the other this will resolve all of the alleged confusion about NPS lands that are co-located in more than one state. I am not aware of any NPS buildings that straddle state borders. I am acutely aware of the occassional and urgent need to enter a NPS building in order to use the public restroom or to obtain shelter from the elements and/or the wildlife. (Yes, I was chased by a bull elk in rut while I was visiting Estes NP in Colorado.)

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Of those 13K+, lots of them oppose the rule change. Reading some of them is enough to make one weep for humanity.
 
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