COPS episode

[oobray]

I was watching COPS last night and I saw an interesting potentialy dangerous scenario. (Sorry if some of you have seen the episode)

Scenario:
Young man was taking trash to the dumpster in his apartment complex. He is approached by another young man who says "Hey, you wanna party?". In reply the first man says "No, I have kids at home, I'm just going to go inside". Then the approacher states that he should come party with him, and that he has been drinking and doing drugs all day. The approacher then goes on to ask "Hey, wanna see my gun?" He then pulls out a SA XD from a shoulder holster and starts waiving it around. He then starts talking about several banks he supposedly robbed the previous week.

Ok, so this guy is obviously drunk, and high and is now waiving around a gun and has admited to commiting violent crimes recently in the past. You have your CCW and you have a decision to make. He hasn't threatened you but DEFINATELY poses a threat to you. If you pull out your CCW you have potentiall esclated a situation to a point that it might not have been. Or, you don't pull out your piece and the subjects demeanor suddenly changes and he shoots/robbs you.
What would you do?

 

[PPGMD]

Gun out, drunk, admitting to crimes, sounds like reasonable belief that you are in danger, don't know what I would do but I think it would be hard for a jury to convict if you fire on him.

 

[Riz58]

RUN!!!!! It is simple as that - get away from this bozo before he has an accidental discharge and hits you. Then call the cops and report him along with his physical description.

 

[NukemJim]

You are not the police. Disengage. Be friendly but disengage.
If you want to then call the cops from you apt fine. But from your scenarior (If I understand correctly) He is not hostile, attacking, or pointing the gun at you. He does not appear to be an immediate threat.

Remember you never lose a gunfight that you are not in.

NukemJim

 

[WeThePeople]

According to what I have been told by the media lately, you should just lie down, curl up into the fetal position, and hope for the best.

But seriously, it sounds like a situation where just backing away would de-escalate the situation. If he follows and/or takes aim,it is all over for him. But a drunk with a gun is most likely just being stupid without homicidal ideations.

Actually, a few years ago, some really great neighbors decided to have a knife fight in my driveway, threatening my wife and I. Unbeknownst to them, we were both well-armed. When I told them to go away, they did. I think I could have plugged one or both of them justifiably, but chose to take what I think was the high road.

 

[zahc]

But a drunk with a gun is most likely just being stupid without homicidal ideations.

As my dear father is fond of saying 'it don't matter if you're dead by accident or dead on purpose, dead is dead'.

 

[WeThePeople]

Quote:
But a drunk with a gun is most likely just being stupid without homicidal ideations.

As my dear father is fond of saying 'it don't matter if you're dead by accident or dead on purpose, dead is dead'.

Right. Like I said, if he takes aim, it is all over for him.

 

[Jeff White]

Go home and call the police. Do you think you'd legally get by with shooting an idiot waving a gun around on the range or in the gunshop?

There is no threat here. Why would you escalate the situation by drawing your weapon?

Jeff

 

[October]

Would a police officer draw his weapon in this case? Or resort to some other means to defuse the situation?

 

[KD7ONE]

I would calmly ask him for his name and phone number. If he asks why, I would make up a false excuse that I can call him and party with him when I have some free time.

If he gave me his name and number, I would then give that info to the police with the story of exactly what happened. Then I would let them handle the situation accordingly.

 

[kellyj00]

this is where you get socially tactical.
"Hey man, put that away. I hate guns."

If you run, he's going to start thinking... "uh, i just told that guy that I robbed a bank. he might be going to call the cops."
If you engage, you're shooting a moron with a gun... that's just not sporting, nor is it justifiable in court. "He said he committed violent crimes and was brandishing a weapon" I'm not too keen on lying under oath, and that's the only way you'd get out of that one.

It wasn't your last chance, so don't draw. Don't draw unless you're pulling the trigger, don't touch your weapon unless you're going to draw. learned that a long time ago from a very smart man.

 

[Lonestar]

The approacher then goes on to ask "Hey, wanna see my gun?" He then pulls out a SA XD from a shoulder holster and starts waiving it around. He then starts talking about several banks he supposedly robbed the previous week.

Ok, so this guy is obviously drunk, and high and is now waiving around a gun and has admited to commiting violent crimes recently in the past. You have your CCW and you have a decision to make.

He hasn't threatened you

but DEFINATELY poses a threat to you. If you pull out your CCW you have potentiall esclated a situation to a point that it might not have been.

Sometimes I wonder about these "oohhhh can I shoot someone now!" threads. Anyway I would try to talk the guy down. If he thinks he is your buddy and wants to party, say " Yea , I'll party at your place, I'll met you there" and just walk away, and call the cops.

So did the guy actually rob a bank, or was he just crazy?

 

[Joe Demko]

Would a police officer draw his weapon in this case? Or resort to some other means to defuse the situation?

What a police officer would do isn't germane. Most here aren't police and those who are already know what they should do.

I'd excuse myself to get back to my kids then call the cops to report a drunk with a gun.

 

[October]

What a police officer would do isn't germane. Most here aren't police and those who are already know what they should do.

I think it is germane. There have been numerous threads discussing and analyzing police behavior on THR.

Jeff White has stated that in the given scenario, there is no threat. I'd like to know if police officers are in the habit of drawing their sidearm when no threat is present or if they typically resort to other means to control the situation.

 

[TallPine]

I had a drunk man waving a gun situation once. I knew the guy and actually had a business deal going with him. He was going through a divorce as well. He never threatened me directly, so I just talked normally with him and didn't get intimidated. We had a nice chat and he went on his way.

I don't quite get it, but some guys have a way of trying to intimidate you just to see how you react. I had a former neighbor like that (not the bad one that I've posted about before), and when I didn't rise to the bait then I became his best buddy. He gave us a bunch of stuff when he moved.

Jeff White has stated that in the given scenario, there is no threat. I'd like to know if police officers are in the habit of drawing their sidearm when no threat is present or if they typically resort to other means to control the situation.

Touche!

 

[Joe Demko]

Police are constrained by the fact that they are police to engage the gun-waving drunk. You, as a private citizen with a carry permit, are under no such obligation. You are completely free to unass the AO.

 

[SniperStraz]

This is where a pocket gun would come in handy. You can have it pointed at him without drawing and alerting him. In those situations people just need to be able to read the threat. That is, its very possible that being as wrecked as this guy was. The good guy could just have asked the bad guy if he could hold the gun for a second and the bad guy might have complied. Then you walk away threat free and call the cops. On the other hand you may be found with a weapon that was used to rob a few banks. There are a lot of options depending upon the situation.

 

[ilbob]

Jeff White has stated that in the given scenario, there is no threat. I'd like to know if police officers are in the habit of drawing their sidearm when no threat is present or if they typically resort to other means to control the situation.

I would bet on drawing. But, I would also bet he would not be waving a gun around a uniformed cop either.

 

[Jeff White]

October said;

Jeff White has stated that in the given scenario, there is no threat. I'd like to know if police officers are in the habit of drawing their sidearm when no threat is present or if they typically resort to other means to control the situation.

This is where the difference between a peace officer and a private citizen becomes apparent. The police officer who is called to the scene has a duty to protect everyone from the danger a drunk waving a firearm around poses. A private citizen has no such duty. A private citizen has the option of retreating. If there has been no threat made by the drunk to the private citizen in this scenario, then he has no more legal right to draw his weapon on that person then he would if a person with poor gun handling skills flagged him on the range or in the gun shop.

A police response to that situation would not be by one officer. Even in a place where police manning is pretty thin, if there was no more threat then a drunk waving a gun around, they would probably wait until more then one officer was on the scene before contacting the drunk. You take a big chance that you will turn a harmless drunk waving a gun around into a situation where you may have to kill the harmless drunk when you confront him. Each situation is different, but it's usually best with a drunk or an EDP (emotionally disturbed person) to be low key in your approach. The officer who initiates contact would probably do it from the best cover he could find without pointing his weapon at the subject, while other officers covered the subject with a deadly force option. In the ideal situation, the other officer(s) could position himself where he wasn't visible to the subject. As more officers arrive there are less lethal options that become available to end the situation without anyone being shot.

I can't think of any reason why a private citizen would want to do anything but disengage in this situation. By drawing on the subject you may escalate the situation from a relatively harmless drunk to a shooting. I wouldn't do anything but disengage if I encountered this situation off duty. I would keep the subject under observation until on duty officers arrived but there is no way I'm going escalate the situation to the point where someone could be shot where no direct threat exists. Now if the drunk wants to escalate by attempting to keep me from leaving, then it's a different story, but in the situation as described, there is no reason that I can see to escalate.

To address the question about police officers drawing their weapon when a threat isn't present I'll say this. A police officer often uses his weapon to present a threat to the suspect. There are certain situations, felony stops, felony arrests, armed suspects where the police point their weapons at the suspect in order to gain compliance. A private citizen would almost never be in a situation like that. Your CCW permit is not a peace officer's commission and you don't have to take anyone into custody and you have the option of retreating from a situation.

It's not a sign that you are less of a man if you disengage and walk away from a potential confrontation. I'll never understand why so many people seem to be looking for a reason to point their weapon at someone or to shoot someone.

Jeff

 

[The Amigo]

Dito

I totally agree with Jeff. As an LEO myself I can tell you that we are allowed to draw in situations were a there's no visual threat but a potential one for example shots fired at Dark alleyway, unaccounted persons in buildings ext.. But as a private citizen there's a thin line. Especially on states that have brandishing Laws or so called ostentatious carry restrictions. In a situation like that be friendly tell him your wife or significant other is sick and walk away let the us do our job.

 

[October]

Thanks for answering my question, Jeff. I understand your point about the different obligations that police officers and private citizens have, but I’m still confused on whether there is a threat in the described scenario. You originally stated that there was no threat. But, then you said the following (with my emphasis added):

The police officer who is called to the scene has a duty to protect everyone from the danger a drunk waving a firearm around poses.

Even in a place where police manning is pretty thin, if there was no more threat then a drunk waving a gun around, they would probably wait until more then one officer was on the scene before contacting the drunk.

What is the difference between a danger and a threat, as you are using these terms? And, in your second statement, are you implying that there are various levels of threat involving a firearm?

 

[Jeff White]

Yes there are different levels of threat. There is very little that is black and white in this world. The most prevalent standard is the reasonable man rule. Put simply, if a reasonable man, knowing what you knew about the situation at the time you acted, would have acted the same way, then you're probably going to be justified in your actions.

A person in a gun show or gun shop waving a gun around is a danger to everyone around. The drunk in this story is a danger to everyone around, but he doesn't become a direct threat to the person until he deliberately points his weapon at him, makes threats to the person or attempts to keep the person from leaving.

Drawing on him may escalate the situation to the point where shots are fired. Why would you want to do that?

Jeff

 

[The Amigo]

Means, Intent, Accessibility If u can put these 3 together the u will usually be ok in a court of Law.
Means= he has a weapon that can commit grave bodily harm. Gun Knife ext..
Intent=Give me your wallet or ill kill ya, Open this door and I'm going to f u up..
Accessibility= hes within reasonable distance and can get U.

For example if you in your car and he has a knife and your doors and windows locked is it ok to shoot? No you can start your car and get out of the situation. Or shooting someone from your 3rd floor window because he said he would kill you from downstairs.

Good scenario is alleyway with no exit, on a sidewalk within feet from you ext... In your situation yes he had a gun did he imply he was going to use against you no= no intent. Were u accessible maybe maybe not ..

Then again not all BG will give u a message there coming to harm u so this is just a suggestion. Always be mentally alert. For example if u see a masked man with a gun coming your way there's not a lot to guess there.

There's some states that have the stand your own ground rule. And that's a different story.

 

[Elmer Fudd]

The drunk in this story is a danger to everyone around, but he doesn't become a direct threat to the person until he deliberately points his weapon at him, makes threats to the person or attempts to keep the person from leaving.

I agree that beating feet is almost always the best option. However, I would disagree that this person is not a direct threat to the guy dumping the trash. If you wait for the muzzle to point at you you are a twitch away from dying. His bizarre behavior, talk of drink and drugs, talk of robbing banks, and brandishing his weapon are the actions of an irrational person. I would not wait around for the muzzle to point at me before backing out with disarming blather and/or running. Once around the corner, though, I face the direction of the threat with weapon out while retreating. I think drawing when someone has the drop on you is probably almost always a bad decision.

 

[toivo]

I would disengage by saying "OK man, let me go get my [insert illicit substance here]--I'll be right back." The I'd hustle to my apartment, lock the door, call the cops, and sit tight until I hear sirens. If he tries to bust into the apartment, that's a whole different story. If he's that drunk, though, it's unlikely he'd even notice which apartment you went into.