1 old 0311
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Wonder if it will be as reliable as their pistols?
Correia at SHOT show
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AVESguy
Member
Hi all
I was at SHOT too.
First I saw the Microtech AUG clone. Felt ok in my hands but a little awkward. I'm a lefty. Felt weird, I usually dont' like bullpups and AUGS in particluar as they don't seem to fit my shape very well. This was no different but it is very cool looking....
Then I saw the Kel Tec. It felt like it was made for me. It's ambidextrous, the bolt handle can be setup for left or right, the stock is symmetrical, ambi safety, etc. Balances nice, as soon as I picked it up I went.. wow.. this feels great. How can this be a bullpup? My right handed buddy who was with me picked it up and said..wow, this feels great. He looked shocked. He's more an AR and FAL type. This takes standard FAL mags. They had three versions with different add-ons, rails and barrel lengths, the sort of plain jane short barrelled carbine version (18") was by far my favorite. You can see them in the pictures on the Kel Tec forum. First bullpup I've ever lusted after!!!!
Trigger is very light and smooth and supposedly adjustable. That said, no guns at SHOT have firing pins so actual trigger pull might be different, I don't know. some guns at the show (like M&P) had very gritty triggers, I wonder if not having a firing pin had anything to do with it.
Glock only had one, uninteresting new pistol. LOTS of AR and AR accessories firms. I like the Stags. Also LMT had some nice ones and the owners were extremely nice and friendly. In other areas, I liked Colt's AR and non AR stuff, as well as Ruger and T/C Thompson. Don't get to see all that stuff up close and personal very often. We got to do a great simulator with three giant screens that involved driving a humvee through hostile desert territory and having a roof machine gunner to take out hostiles and blow up their vehicles.
It was a great show, too much stuff to see. I went for 1.5 days and still struggled to get through it.
AVESGUY
I was at SHOT too.
First I saw the Microtech AUG clone. Felt ok in my hands but a little awkward. I'm a lefty. Felt weird, I usually dont' like bullpups and AUGS in particluar as they don't seem to fit my shape very well. This was no different but it is very cool looking....
Then I saw the Kel Tec. It felt like it was made for me. It's ambidextrous, the bolt handle can be setup for left or right, the stock is symmetrical, ambi safety, etc. Balances nice, as soon as I picked it up I went.. wow.. this feels great. How can this be a bullpup? My right handed buddy who was with me picked it up and said..wow, this feels great. He looked shocked. He's more an AR and FAL type. This takes standard FAL mags. They had three versions with different add-ons, rails and barrel lengths, the sort of plain jane short barrelled carbine version (18") was by far my favorite. You can see them in the pictures on the Kel Tec forum. First bullpup I've ever lusted after!!!!
Trigger is very light and smooth and supposedly adjustable. That said, no guns at SHOT have firing pins so actual trigger pull might be different, I don't know. some guns at the show (like M&P) had very gritty triggers, I wonder if not having a firing pin had anything to do with it.
Glock only had one, uninteresting new pistol. LOTS of AR and AR accessories firms. I like the Stags. Also LMT had some nice ones and the owners were extremely nice and friendly. In other areas, I liked Colt's AR and non AR stuff, as well as Ruger and T/C Thompson. Don't get to see all that stuff up close and personal very often. We got to do a great simulator with three giant screens that involved driving a humvee through hostile desert territory and having a roof machine gunner to take out hostiles and blow up their vehicles.
It was a great show, too much stuff to see. I went for 1.5 days and still struggled to get through it.
AVESGUY
AVESguy, on that simulator with the humvee, I managed to get us stuck against a wall and got PvtPyle and I killed. Next time he drives...
Okay, I'll try to answer some of the questions brought up in this thread.
FNP45 should be available for sale shortly. Don't have the exact date. The FN rep brought one by our shop before we left for the show. I didn't ask about compacts.
The Masada is a modular rifle. It is similar in execution to the XCR or the SCAR. It is an injection molded lower, with an aluminum uppper. The upper has steel inserts for the bolt carrier to ride on.
It uses standard AR barrels, but with a piston system attached to the port instead of the regular gas block. Any standard AR barrel will be able to work. It has the neatest quick change barrel system I've seen yet. Punch the pin holding the handguard with a bullet tip, then pull down a little handle, pull it to the side, and a interupted thread locking collar comes off. Swap barrels, reverse. Done.
Front sight is a fold down unit, has an emergency shotgun bead style sight available even when it is folded down. Charging handle is swappable. Can be set to reciprocate or not. Will work as a forward assist. Bolt release is like the XCR so you can use your trigger finger or your thumb (which is slick).
Price should be around $1500. Don't expect it out until 2008.
Magpul's new AR mags are very impressive. I stomped the hell out of one, and it was fine. I know a little bit about building magazines now that our Saiga .308 mags are done, and I can say that these gee whized me.
I spent a bunch of time playing with the Kel-Tec. Some of you may recall that I wasted a year of my life building a bullpup FAL, so this one got my attention real quick.
It is a simpler lifter system than the FS2000, in that it has a dual extractor system that pins the rim against the angled bolt face, and slides it upward, and then out the gun.
Trigger pull was very surprising. It was excellent.
How will this thing actually do? Beats me, but I'm getting one of the first ones to write up, and you guys know how I treat new guns. If it can be broken or jammed, I'll find out.
The mags do rock in like regular FAL mags. It is actually pretty easy to do. And no, your grip hand is not in the way. This also won't be out until 2008.
And before anybody starts crying about how long stuff takes, it takes awhile to get all of the bugs worked out of a design. The more complex the design, the longer it will take to get it to market. I told people it would take 3 months for our Saiga mags, and it actually took 6, and you would think that I shot some people's pets or something.
As for the price, judging from the reaction at the show, I don't think there will be much problem selling these.
Let's see, what else. There are two new compact STIs. Defender size, and then a commander size, but with an officer length frame. I love STI. They are an awesome company.
No sign of the HEZI, sorry Fabulousfink.
Glock was the same old stuff as far as I could tell.
Grayrider, the Century Galil is going to be around $800 if I recall correctly. I got set up to sell their stuff directly at the show, so I should have official prices soon. I talked to your boss for like ten seconds, but he was busy, and I had to get to another meeting myself. I did however tell them that their internet guy rocked to a shockingly high degree.
Right now I've got 10,000 catalogs laying here, and 200 more e-mails to answer. Not to mention a whole mess of guns to ship, many of which need to go to THR members. Now back to work.
Okay, I'll try to answer some of the questions brought up in this thread.
FNP45 should be available for sale shortly. Don't have the exact date. The FN rep brought one by our shop before we left for the show. I didn't ask about compacts.
The Masada is a modular rifle. It is similar in execution to the XCR or the SCAR. It is an injection molded lower, with an aluminum uppper. The upper has steel inserts for the bolt carrier to ride on.
It uses standard AR barrels, but with a piston system attached to the port instead of the regular gas block. Any standard AR barrel will be able to work. It has the neatest quick change barrel system I've seen yet. Punch the pin holding the handguard with a bullet tip, then pull down a little handle, pull it to the side, and a interupted thread locking collar comes off. Swap barrels, reverse. Done.
Front sight is a fold down unit, has an emergency shotgun bead style sight available even when it is folded down. Charging handle is swappable. Can be set to reciprocate or not. Will work as a forward assist. Bolt release is like the XCR so you can use your trigger finger or your thumb (which is slick).
Price should be around $1500. Don't expect it out until 2008.
Magpul's new AR mags are very impressive. I stomped the hell out of one, and it was fine. I know a little bit about building magazines now that our Saiga .308 mags are done, and I can say that these gee whized me.
I spent a bunch of time playing with the Kel-Tec. Some of you may recall that I wasted a year of my life building a bullpup FAL, so this one got my attention real quick.
It is a simpler lifter system than the FS2000, in that it has a dual extractor system that pins the rim against the angled bolt face, and slides it upward, and then out the gun.
Trigger pull was very surprising. It was excellent.
How will this thing actually do? Beats me, but I'm getting one of the first ones to write up, and you guys know how I treat new guns. If it can be broken or jammed, I'll find out.
The mags do rock in like regular FAL mags. It is actually pretty easy to do. And no, your grip hand is not in the way. This also won't be out until 2008.
And before anybody starts crying about how long stuff takes, it takes awhile to get all of the bugs worked out of a design. The more complex the design, the longer it will take to get it to market. I told people it would take 3 months for our Saiga mags, and it actually took 6, and you would think that I shot some people's pets or something.
As for the price, judging from the reaction at the show, I don't think there will be much problem selling these.
Let's see, what else. There are two new compact STIs. Defender size, and then a commander size, but with an officer length frame. I love STI. They are an awesome company.
No sign of the HEZI, sorry Fabulousfink.
Glock was the same old stuff as far as I could tell.
Grayrider, the Century Galil is going to be around $800 if I recall correctly. I got set up to sell their stuff directly at the show, so I should have official prices soon. I talked to your boss for like ten seconds, but he was busy, and I had to get to another meeting myself. I did however tell them that their internet guy rocked to a shockingly high degree.
Right now I've got 10,000 catalogs laying here, and 200 more e-mails to answer. Not to mention a whole mess of guns to ship, many of which need to go to THR members. Now back to work.
Eleven Mike
Member
Unimportant. Does it come in coyote brown?
Lucky
Member
I can't see any other info on the 20mm, is this an inside joke?
And Anzio Ironworks 14.5 weights over 100 pounds? That seems excessive.
And Anzio Ironworks 14.5 weights over 100 pounds? That seems excessive.
Lucky, if you have ever seen what the 14.5 is normally shot out of, you wouldn't think so.
14.5 has about 3X the powder of a .50 if I recall correctly. I've got video of PvtPyle shooting one from the back of a truck in Afghanistan, and the blast is rocking the truck around on its shocks like it is in an earthquake. The muzzle blast that comes out the end looks like a mushroom cloud.
The first muzzle brake the Anzio guys used, literally, EXPLODED, on the first shot. The new one had to be machined from a solid block of steel that started out about the size of a phone book. I think 100 pounds sounds reasonable to me.
And I forgot, the KelTec does lock back. The bolt release on the prototye was just a piece of sheetmetal, but George Kelgren told me that they would be changing that to something nicer.
14.5 has about 3X the powder of a .50 if I recall correctly. I've got video of PvtPyle shooting one from the back of a truck in Afghanistan, and the blast is rocking the truck around on its shocks like it is in an earthquake. The muzzle blast that comes out the end looks like a mushroom cloud.
The first muzzle brake the Anzio guys used, literally, EXPLODED, on the first shot. The new one had to be machined from a solid block of steel that started out about the size of a phone book. I think 100 pounds sounds reasonable to me.
And I forgot, the KelTec does lock back. The bolt release on the prototye was just a piece of sheetmetal, but George Kelgren told me that they would be changing that to something nicer.
Lucky
Member
I believe they can be hefty. The gunshop I go to the most has a PTRD rebarreled to .50bmg on display.
When I was looking at buying a PTRD I learned WW2 ammo was lower pressured than modern 14.5, so barrel weight would increase. As well the excess weight could be accounted in designing the more effective muzzle brake. And more mass would reduce instances of fractured clavicles, maybe
And is there any more information on the 20mm rifle?
Incidentally this may not be a fair example, or a rational or sane example, but cannons can be made reasonably light. For example this one advertised as 'the lightest 30mm cannon'
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/str/cannons/gsh301.htm
"
Round type AO-18
Caliber, mm 30
Rate of fire, rds/min
1500-1800
Muzzle velocity, m/s 860
Weight, kg
cannon 50
round 0.832
projectile 0.39"
Or this 23mm cannon, weighing less than 100 pounds:
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/str/cannons/am23.htm
"
Round type AM-23
Caliber, mm 23
Rate of fire, rds/min
1250
Muzzle velocity, m/s 715
Weight, kg
cannon 43
round 0.325
projectile 0.174
It is intended to arm bombers (Tu-16, Tu-95) and military transport aircraft (An-12B)."
So if a human can withstand them, the technology is there. Firing videos might end up on Youtube or Ogrish, though.
When I was looking at buying a PTRD I learned WW2 ammo was lower pressured than modern 14.5, so barrel weight would increase. As well the excess weight could be accounted in designing the more effective muzzle brake. And more mass would reduce instances of fractured clavicles, maybe
And is there any more information on the 20mm rifle?
Incidentally this may not be a fair example, or a rational or sane example, but cannons can be made reasonably light. For example this one advertised as 'the lightest 30mm cannon'
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/str/cannons/gsh301.htm
"
Round type AO-18
Caliber, mm 30
Rate of fire, rds/min
1500-1800
Muzzle velocity, m/s 860
Weight, kg
cannon 50
round 0.832
projectile 0.39"
Or this 23mm cannon, weighing less than 100 pounds:
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/str/cannons/am23.htm
"
Round type AM-23
Caliber, mm 23
Rate of fire, rds/min
1250
Muzzle velocity, m/s 715
Weight, kg
cannon 43
round 0.325
projectile 0.174
It is intended to arm bombers (Tu-16, Tu-95) and military transport aircraft (An-12B)."
So if a human can withstand them, the technology is there. Firing videos might end up on Youtube or Ogrish, though.
Wes Janson
Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,962
Yes, it definitely did. On the last shot, the bolt locks back and the empty cartridge case is held up above the chamber. When you insert the new mag, and drop the bolt, it shoves that last case on out the front.
And remember, $2000 MSRP means $1500-1600 with any luck.
Yes, it's a real rifle. I know people who have shot it; unfortunately I missed getting to shoot it by only 15 minutes
Actual weight of the rifle is 110 pounds, if I remember correctly. Everything I've heard says that recoil is pretty light, but that the muzzle blast is incredible.
Anna's Dad
Member
According to posts on KTOG there were serial numbers in the 800s at the SHOT SHOW. I would guess they have nearly 1,000 out. Also, according to a Kel-Tec employee at SHOT they are supposed to go into full roduction in the next two weeks. Full production for KT is pretty impressive--they were cranking out P32s and P3ATs at a blistering rate.
I've got to say that I am strictly a pistol guy and have never wanted any rifle at all. The 18" version of this bullpup was really impressive to look at and to hold. If I was ever going to buy a rifle, this might be it. Based on prior performance of their new releases I would wait until they have a few thousand of them out the door. Even if they release 1Q '08 as they indicated at the show it would be late '08 or even '09 before I would feel comfortable making the purchase.
Pretty interesting show. Just got back and am planning for the next one. The KT RFB was the first thing that wanted right off the bat but after thinking about it a little, I think I'll wait a little like any other first time design for everything to get ironed out. The $2K/$2.5K/$3K estimate was what I heard too on the first day (Thu). (Only interested in the 32"er.) An interesting design. It was said that it has been throoughly tested (as expected from the rep) and, IIRC, no FTEs. On Sat, though, when I past by again, it was admitted that casings did hang up in the chute on occassion but this did not stop firing and after a few rounds (with no casings ejected), you would all of the sudden get a few of them flying out at one time (the force of the bolt giving the hung-up casing a good push out of the port). It was also said that full auto versions are being considered for military/LE applications.
Only thing I'm not sold on is a failure to feed problem. By looking at the gun, it looks like it will need to be disassembled to clear any of these types of failures. There was a 24" sample at the New Products table outside the hall that you could manhandle thoroughly.
Only thing I'm not sold on is a failure to feed problem. By looking at the gun, it looks like it will need to be disassembled to clear any of these types of failures. There was a 24" sample at the New Products table outside the hall that you could manhandle thoroughly.
jerkface11
Member
So how long on the american AUG? And will it use AR magazines?
And Anzio Ironworks 14.5 weights over 100 pounds? That seems excessive.
I can tell you with all certanty that it is not. If you plan on making a follow up shot in the next 2 minutes or do not want your clavical broken and a few disks compresses in your back you need all the weight and as big of a muzzle brake as you can get. They are making a mount for it to go on the M2 tripod or on a vehicle, but it is sectional to be man portable. It even has a suppressor to keep the blast down (but by no means silence it).
It is a DD not because it has any explosive material in it, but because it is a center fired round over 1/2 inch in diameter. They have laid their hands on some ammo and will be selling it, but much more importantly, they are making brass that takes a 50 BMG primer and their rounds. Which give 3/4 MOA out past 1000m.
I will be getting one just as soon as we can figure out a way to swing it.
I can tell you with all certanty that it is not. If you plan on making a follow up shot in the next 2 minutes or do not want your clavical broken and a few disks compresses in your back you need all the weight and as big of a muzzle brake as you can get. They are making a mount for it to go on the M2 tripod or on a vehicle, but it is sectional to be man portable. It even has a suppressor to keep the blast down (but by no means silence it).
It is a DD not because it has any explosive material in it, but because it is a center fired round over 1/2 inch in diameter. They have laid their hands on some ammo and will be selling it, but much more importantly, they are making brass that takes a 50 BMG primer and their rounds. Which give 3/4 MOA out past 1000m.
I will be getting one just as soon as we can figure out a way to swing it.
Lucky
Member
I kind of imagined that targets would be old cars towed out to the farthest range possible Sub moa accuracy perhaps not really required.
www.marstar.ca/PTRD-41.htm 38.4 lb, but I guess the recoil extracted the spent cartridge, so that might reduce what you feel a bit, plus the somewhat lighter ammo.
I wonder if there would be some way to incorporate a spring, a large buffer tube into the stock? Obviously with a scope the stock itself can't collapse though.
Also of interest, http://members.aol.com/fiftyguy/ptrd20mm.htm
http://members.aol.com/fiftyguy/ptrd05.jpg
Sub moa accuracy perhaps not really required.www.marstar.ca/PTRD-41.htm 38.4 lb, but I guess the recoil extracted the spent cartridge, so that might reduce what you feel a bit, plus the somewhat lighter ammo.
I wonder if there would be some way to incorporate a spring, a large buffer tube into the stock? Obviously with a scope the stock itself can't collapse though.
Also of interest, http://members.aol.com/fiftyguy/ptrd20mm.htm
http://members.aol.com/fiftyguy/ptrd05.jpg
Zundfolge
Member
Good question.
Apparently the Steyr folk were MIA and their booth space sat empty the whole time
Travis McGee
Member
The Kel-Tec bullpup 308 was the "buzz" in the LE room. Kudos to Kel-Tec for trying something new. It just gets old, seeing booth after booth of AR varients and accessories. The eyes blur over after a while. At least Kel-Tec is willing to go in original directions.
bogie
Member
Oh, come on... Law enforcement does not NEED a .308 bullpup.
It WANTS one.
What it NEEDS are departments willing to invest in "training" rounds, rather than "situation" rounds...
It WANTS one.
What it NEEDS are departments willing to invest in "training" rounds, rather than "situation" rounds...
Wes Janson
Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,962
Want, need, what's the difference. Either way, it's a damn sexy rifle.
You know, I was looking at the Carbine prototype pretty thoroughly, and handled the bolt when he disassembled it, and I noticed it had an awful awful lot of brass shavings on the bolt, in the receiver, and generally all over the place. That kinda makes me wonder more than anything else, whether it might cause problems in the longer run as shavings build up.
Was I the only one who didn't think much of the MSAR STG-556? Sure, the AUG is cool, but the prototypes they had available were rather disappointing. I might pay $1,000 for one, but not $2,000-it's just not that great of a rifle.
You know, I was looking at the Carbine prototype pretty thoroughly, and handled the bolt when he disassembled it, and I noticed it had an awful awful lot of brass shavings on the bolt, in the receiver, and generally all over the place. That kinda makes me wonder more than anything else, whether it might cause problems in the longer run as shavings build up.
Was I the only one who didn't think much of the MSAR STG-556? Sure, the AUG is cool, but the prototypes they had available were rather disappointing. I might pay $1,000 for one, but not $2,000-it's just not that great of a rifle.
Zen21Tao
Member
Most of the talk I heard in the LE room was about the Magpul Masada. It was described by many as having the best parts of the M16 combined with the best parts of the FN SCAR.
AVESguy
Member
Correia
I was the wheel man on ours, my friend was shooting. We did fine, had to make a few detours but managed to hit the water. It was really a blast. I never got a turn at the machine gun, though.
How the heck did I miss the Magpul booth? Darn, wish I'd have seen that one. That photo in the previous post looks really cool.
AVESGUY
I was the wheel man on ours, my friend was shooting. We did fine, had to make a few detours but managed to hit the water. It was really a blast. I never got a turn at the machine gun, though.
How the heck did I miss the Magpul booth? Darn, wish I'd have seen that one. That photo in the previous post looks really cool.
AVESGUY
Henry Bowman
Senior Member
Yes. No.
As Wes quoted above, at worst 2 or 3 casings could accumulate in the tube. The bolt pushes them out, same as stripping a new round from the mag. The casing would have to be severly deformed not to eject. Possible? Yes. At worst, the design could be changed to shorten the ejection tube.
How the system works is the extractor, after the bolt assembly is drawn back under recoil, tilts the empty case upward (inside of the gun unseen). At this point the empty case is pointed at a channel located above the barrel. You can see it on the posted tech data sheet of the gun on the first page of this thread. As the bolt goes forward to complete its cycle, the casing starts to enter the channel and the extractor gets push down to engage the next (live) round going into the chamber. When the extractor depresses, an extension in the bolt carrier (not sure if it is called that) pushes the empty casing further into the channel. The force of the bolt/bolt carrier going forward is what kicks the casing out of the chute.
I have to hand it to KT for designing something new (as compared to what's out there). But, being not entirely well seasoned in rifle manufacturing and starting with an entirely new design, I'm not sure I'd pay up to $3K for the target model out of the gate.
SHOT show was great. I won a Trijicon scope and a Swiss watch from Trijicon. Of course, I lost the watch at the airport when I had to repack my bag after finding out I couldn't take the scope through security. Darn.
I got killed the first time through the Humvee simualtor. I was driving and wasn't told the mission objective so I just drove through town and around so the gunner would have targets to shoot at. It wasn't until after we were dead that they said I should have headed for the dock. I did better once I was up on the gun. That was fun.
I got killed the first time through the Humvee simualtor. I was driving and wasn't told the mission objective so I just drove through town and around so the gunner would have targets to shoot at. It wasn't until after we were dead that they said I should have headed for the dock. I did better once I was up on the gun. That was fun.
Wes Janson
Member
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- May 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,962
I couldn't figure out why they were driving for the dock; I assumed/wanted a seek and destroy mission. Whoever the heck my driver was (some random dude), he kept driving the humvee into walls, and getting stuck for half a minute at a time while hostiles plinked at us from behind. That was the real problem with the simulator: not being able to see or shoot 360.
Oh, and from what I could tell, the laser aiming device on that simulator was really inaccurate/out of sync. I was properly using the iron sights on the 240, and it kept throwing the shots off fairly significantly (at least a foot or two at a simulated 15 yards). I've never had the opportunity to fire a 240 in real life, but I'd imagine that at 15 to 20 yards a 3 second burst is pretty much guaranteed to nail someone standing fully upright in the open, when the sights are held even vaguely close. My driver discovered the hard way that you could apparantly run into a hostile footsoldier and push them in front of the bumper for a decent distance before they finally die.
Overall, that system wasn't very impressive
Trebor: how did you manage to win a Trijicon?
Oh, and from what I could tell, the laser aiming device on that simulator was really inaccurate/out of sync. I was properly using the iron sights on the 240, and it kept throwing the shots off fairly significantly (at least a foot or two at a simulated 15 yards). I've never had the opportunity to fire a 240 in real life, but I'd imagine that at 15 to 20 yards a 3 second burst is pretty much guaranteed to nail someone standing fully upright in the open, when the sights are held even vaguely close. My driver discovered the hard way that you could apparantly run into a hostile footsoldier and push them in front of the bumper for a decent distance before they finally die.
Overall, that system wasn't very impressive
Trebor: how did you manage to win a Trijicon?
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