Could Having Video Documentation of our Training and Skills Help in Court ?

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BigO01

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I was sitting around and doing a bit of dry fire practice and decided to pull out a couple of the Videos I have on shooting and rewatch them as I haven't done so for a few years .

The last one I watched was Night Master "Low Light" Shooting & Flashlight Techniques , it is a Lenny Magill production with Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn doing the instructing and demonstrations in the film .

As usual Ken Hackathorn "Being the professional he is" talks about the subject of a persons legal responsibilities and possible ramifications should a person use the techniques or fail to which are being demonstrated in an actual shooting .

Watching this for the first time got me to thinking seriously on how one could perhaps prove to a Prosecutor or Civil Attorney about to sue us for everything we're worth after a shooting or ruin our lives with a criminal conviction .

Now most people know that at least one well know Trainer "Massod Ayoob" will Testify as an expert witness on your behalf after you have complete one of his classes "Or at least this is what I have read" and perhaps many others will also .

But what about those of us who have never attended such training and as a matter of fact even those that have ?

In todays day of age there it would be very easy with the help of a couple of friends or family members to make video tapes of ourselves showing that we can and do indeed make fast decisions as far as shoot don't shoot situations/targets go as well as the fact that we practice safe gun handling such as moving from room to room with our finger off of the trigger and only engage when it is called for by a "Bad Guy" target .

Now this last part might sound a bit odd but I once read an article by a Expert who's name I can't recall at the moment that if you are involved in a home defense shooting and the Criminal lives or has a family who sues you an attorney will try anything they can to win the case and if they think they can convince a jury you didn't really shoot on purpose they can use laws called "Tort Laws" to attempt to win a huge amount of money via a civil suit .

With so many cheap otherwise still picture cameras having a video feature there really isn't a good excuse to not try to document such training and have proof positive that a Jury can see that you indeed are a safe shooter and perhaps get you a not guilty verdict rather than a guilty one because some of the jurors all assume everyone with a gun is some irresponsible drunk or jerk wanting to kill someone in their house .

When you think about it I bet you even expert witness such as a the training officer at the Police Academy or Expertly run class such as LFI all comes down to nothing but that persons testimony of how you performed which is of course subject to that persons opinion and not something that a jury can see for themselves .

Perhaps these Schools might even consider starting to make tapes of their students performance if they do not already .

If this doesn't belong in S&T I apologize to the MoDs and respectfully request they put it where it belongs .
 
Meh...

I believe the defense has access to the prosecutions case, and if a video could refute some of the prosecutions allegations, than sure.

IMO, the important to focus on would be why lethal force was applied in a situation more so than the proficiency of the shooter.
 
i am not a lawyer, and i didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night. However from the the courses that i have taken, and talks that i have had with experienced people in the field, i have been told to keep training certificates, course hand outs, and notes that you took during lectures, classes and such. additionally there are places that i do and or have trained that will be on your defense if you are involved in a shooting.
 
In todays day of age there it would be very easy with the help of a couple of friends or family members to make video tapes of ourselves showing that we can and do indeed make fast decisions as far as shoot don't shoot situations/targets go as well as the fact that we practice safe gun handling such as moving from room to room with our finger off of the trigger and only engage when it is called for by a "Bad Guy" target .

I don't think that showing you can make decisions on non-lethal targets or move from room to room with your finger off the trigger in a non-real shooting event is going to convince anyone about how you actually behaved during a real shooting.

Now this last part might sound a bit odd but I once read an article by a Expert who's name I can't recall at the moment that if you are involved in a home defense shooting and the Criminal lives or has a family who sues you an attorney will try anything they can to win the case and if they think they can convince a jury you didn't really shoot on purpose they can use laws called "Tort Laws" to attempt to win a huge amount of money via a civil suit .

Suit on the basis that your shot was unintentional? Any case law to support it?

With so many cheap otherwise still picture cameras having a video feature there really isn't a good excuse to not try to document such training and have proof positive that a Jury can see that you indeed are a safe shooter and perhaps get you a not guilty verdict rather than a guilty one because some of the jurors all assume everyone with a gun is some irresponsible drunk or jerk wanting to kill someone in their house .

Once again, being a safe shooter in a video isn't the same thing as reality. Just because you are safe in the video does not mean that you aren't a jerk who wants to kill someone in your house. It won't justify that you aren't an irresponsible drunk, especially if you were drunk at the time of the shooting.

You can make the video and then have it such that your own lawyer can determine if it is relevant or not, but keep in mind that there may be aspects of the video that are used against you. You think it will help because it will show that you are a trained and safe shooter. The opposition may argue that you are a gun nut who liked to practice your killing techniques and glorified your killing prowess in video.
 
i don't see how it can help your case any more than having proof of training with your weapon. the only thing that i can think of that will honestly give you the most benefit would be a good lawyer who can prove that your actions were to preserve your or someone else's life. an expert witness would also help, as he can support the lawyers case that you were justified.
 
Showing a video in court of examples of the types of training you've received, whether you're in them or not, sends red flags up for me especially if you're trying to clear yourself of wrong doing. I know this isn't "High Road" of me to say it this way but I consider most of the general public to be nothing more than "sheeple". All they will see are how many rounds were shot, nothing more.

You'll be judged by the video you provide as being "Rambo", not on evidence.

However showing certificates for "self defense classes" along with First Aid/CPR and Child/Infant CPR, and any other classes you've taken would be better choices because there is no threat in a certificate.
 
absolutely not! This is why Texas CHL courses don't record qualification results other than pass or fail.
 
If you're going to go through the trouble of videotaping something, do an "I'm an upstanding, law abiding good citizen" video. Interview friends, associates, police, doctors, lawyers and other professionals who know you, on video attesting to your good character. They could say things like, "John would never hurt a fly". This is a little tongue-in-cheek, but would better serve you than what you suggest.
 
Paper documentation of training, I'd say might be a good thing, within reason. Video of you training, however, I'd be afraid you would be perceived as a goofball that likes to play with guns. The average Joe/Jane Jury Member wouldn't understand, or care. They'd just see you as "playing". I can see nothing but negative about the idea.
 
So what happens when you present your "I am a responsible gun handling shooter video" and the opposition brings in an experts who critiques the video to show all the mistakes you made, safety violations, etc.? Sure, maybe they aren't massive errors, but little subtle errors, the kind known to cause problems. Then you become screwed by your own video.
 
Any attorney would try to turn it either way against you.

Ok, now seeing what DNS wrote right above me, this is exactly what I was thinking. There is no single 'correct' way to train, but there are plenty of people willing to criticize the way YOU train. If you show a video of Massad F. Ayoob himself training, they could hire some monkey to point out the flaws.

If you say; "See how responsible I am? I train frequently." they will reply; "And yet despite all of this extensive training, you STILL screwed up." See how this works?

I can't WAIT 'til I'm a lawyer. :D
 
So I suppose according to all you "High Road Experts" all of those " Like Ayood , Marshal , Hackathorn , "Jim Cirillo , Bill Jorden and Jeff Cooper when they were alive" , Clint Black , and many others" that have made training videos and written God knows how many books on teaching self defense skills that one should use should all spend their lives hiding in caves so as to not have these things used against them and convicted of 1st degree murder if they ever use the skills they have taught ?

Poor Lenny Magill must spend his life in terror after making all those videos and even going so far as to start his own production company !

After all they must have all been trying to teach us how to become murders and cold blooded killers , instead of defending ourselves within the confines of lawful self defense and had delusions of becoming Master assassins themselves .

I recall reading years ago how some left wing fruit cakes called Ayoobs book "In the Gravest Extreme" "A manual on how to commit murder legally !"

From these posts I would say anyone of you may have written that statement .

Personally I would rather have the cops find home made videos showing my progression of shooting skills while running Combat drills/courses designed by those who are considered the real experts and train or have trained Police , Military and even the Feds than finding dozens of posts on my hard drive where I am having dozens of delusional conversations on how to best kill "Zombies" as so many of you have .

O well feel free to waste another 50 pages or so on deciding how you're going to stop your neighbor from eating your wife and kids brains and with what gun etc. God knows those those threads are so useful when it comes to learning shooting skills .

I imagine you'll have no problems at all explaining all of those posts if you should ever have to use deadly force ? Surely a prosecutor or civil attorney would never make the argument that you are a stark raving lunatic who thought he was killing a Zombie right out of the movie "Night of the Living Dead" would they ?
 
I think that each case is different and you should do what your very highly paid lawyer tells you to do. Sometimes too much info can come back to hurt you. In one instance you may want to be considered a gun expert and highly trained marksman. In another instance it may be in your best interest to be considered an average guy that was just lucky enough to be able to defend himself. A jury is an audience. Your audience varies from town to town and state to state. Would you really want IDPA vids of you aired at a civil trial in San Francisco? Then again, these vids could work for you in North Carolina or Texas.
 
In all the cases I've read of citizens successfully defending themselves with a firearm, there has been no question of competency raised. None. All that matters is that the shooting was justified by circumstances. You don't have to demonstrate your proficiency, you have to present the fact that you were in fear of deadly assault and had no choice but to fire.
 
So I suppose according to all you "High Road Experts" all of those " Like Ayood , Marshal , Hackathorn , "Jim Cirillo , Bill Jorden and Jeff Cooper when they were alive" , Clint Black , and many others" that have made training videos and written God knows how many books on teaching self defense skills that one should use should all spend their lives hiding in caves so as to not have these things used against them and convicted of 1st degree murder if they ever use the skills they have taught ?

I don't believe a single one of those people have made a video or written a book for the sole purpose of trying to make themselves look good in court should they end up in court after a shooting. All have done those things for profit and for the education of others, except for Clint Black. He makes his videos for profit and entertainment. I am not a big fan of his videos, however, as I don't particularly like his way of singing.
 
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