Criminals Robbing Houses, Posing As Police, What to DO?

[4Freedom]

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE53K00Y20090421

The assailants -- typically teams of two to six people -- frequently dress in tactical gear and identify themselves as police officers, Drug Enforcement Administration agents or SWAT team members as they burst into houses to steal drugs, cash or guns.

"Demographics mean nothing when it comes to home invasions. We see (them) in some of the richest, most wealthy parts of town, and also in some of the most downtrodden, completely poor areas," said Detective Sergeant David Azuelo, who runs the home invasion unit.

Armed criminals are starting to come together in groups posing as the police and robbing people of their guns and other posessions. My question is what can we do as citizens to positively identify a true police raid to that of an armed criminal gang who is imitating police so that we lower our guard? This has been something that really scares me. It is easy to shoot at an armed intrudere who you konw is a criminal. But what if that armed intruder has a fake uniform and yells out he is the police. Does that not make us think twice and also make us sitting ducks?

Seeing, that criminals will not end in their own ingenuity, I think we have some serious issues. Both civilians and police. If criminals posed as police start breaking down doors saying they are police, when the real police come, people may start shooting at them, for fear they are criminals. How can we be sure the police are not raiding our house by mistake, hunting down a criminal hiding near our house, etc etc.

If anyone can share their feelings of how they would handle a situation, so as not to end up like the woman in this article, I would be happy to hear.

 

[highorder]

Unfortunately, it's a lose-lose situation.

Fortunately, the truth is this; stay out of the drug trade, and the odds of this happening to you fall into the fractions of a percent.

While most raids target the drug trade, some have branched out and gone after students and other law-abiding residents,

 

[Jeff White]

4Freedom,
Are you a drug dealer? Do you keep a large amount of cash in your home that everyone in the neighborhood knows about?

If you answered no to both of those questions the chances of becoming a victim of a crime like that are almost zero. So small that it's barely worth the bandwidth to discuss here.

Someone tell me why that crimes that are virtually totally perpetuated by criminals on other criminals are such a concern to the THR membership.

Is it because it give the members a chance to feed their fantasies about defending their homes against a group of armed intruders?

Is because certain members who don't like the police want an excuse to post about shooting them?

Let's have some answers. I really want to know why this topic comes up again and again around here.

 

[Dark Skies]

Actually, this isn't as far-fetched as it seems. In the UK quite recently there were a number of cases where criminals were dressing as cops. They preyed on old folk telling them they were from the crime prevention unit and were doing a neighbourhood survey to help people secure their homes. In some cases once they gained entry to the home they simply robbed the place on the spot. In other cases, having scoped out valuables, they came back when the owners were out.

Time was when old people were off-limits even to criminals. Sadly, no longer.

But to the OP's post. I guess the only thing you can do is ask to see the search warrant through a chained door and then phone through to your local police department to see if it's legit.

If they're wrong uns they're probably going to shove a gun in your face anyway. I guess the only compensation you can hope for is to at least not shoot a genuine cop.

 

[Jeff White]

Actually, this isn't as far-fetched as it seems. In the UK quite recently there were a number of cases where criminals were dressing as cops.

It is exactly as far fetched as I posted over here. It's a common risk that people in the drug trade face. But it hasn't spread out of the criminals preying on criminals category.

 

[Dark Skies]

I'm surprised American criminals have missed that trick - perhaps old folk are slightly more revered over there.

 

[cbrgator]

If you live an honest life and the cops would have no reason to be executing a no-knock warrant at your home, chances are (although not 100%) they aren't real officers. I don't foresee this occurring to too many people not in the drug trade, but I'd probably be thinking, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and do what I had to do.

No-knock warrants are for extremely extenuating circumstances and are only granted when it is determined that a regular warrant will allow the suspect to hide/destroy evidence or something along those lines. Exigent circumstances is the term applied here in legal circles and these exigent circumstances must be present for a no-knock warrant. If you are an honest citizen, as low a probability as there would be for a regular warrant, the chances are infinitesimally smaller for a no-knock warrant.

 

[4Freedom]

If you answered no to both of those questions the chances of becoming a victim of a crime like that are almost zero. So small that it's barely worth the bandwidth to discuss here.

Jeff, maybe this is far fetched and I am just worried over nothing. However, did you not read the article and see that the people who were robbed were not involved in drug trade and did not live any type of unscrupulous lifestyle? It seems that some of these groups of thugs are targeting innocent people or people they consider vulnerable. I mean, any person living in a nice house, who has a nice car, can easily be seen as a person who may have valuables worth stealing. Also, sometimes people are survaillenced by bad types and don't know it.

What is your comments on the news article about the original quote I made in the Original post:

"Demographics mean nothing when it comes to home invasions. We see (them) in some of the richest, most wealthy parts of town, and also in some of the most downtrodden, completely poor areas," said Detective Sergeant David Azuelo, who runs the home invasion unit.

It seems that this type of crime is on the rise and criminals are becoming more clever. Basically, my question is, if someone or a group of people are knocking on the door saying they are police or if a criminals yells they are a police officer, what can you do to verify their claim, so that both them and you don't get hurt? I don't see how criminals using these tactics on the average citizen cannot happen.

 

[Jeff White]

You left out this from the article:

Maria had bought the house weeks before and the gunmen believed drug traffickers were using it.

Still drug related. Taking parts of an article out of context to make people believe something is true when it isn't is what the antis do. We should be above that.

It seems that some of these groups of thugs are targeting innocent people or people they consider vulnerable.

They are targeting locations and people they believe are involved in the drug trade or the human trafficking trade. They are NOT (and nothing in the article says otherwise) targeting people because they live in a nice house or drive a nice car.

Basically, my question is, if someone or a group of people are knocking on the door saying they are police or if a criminals yells they are a police officer, what can you do to verify their claim, so that both them and you don't get hurt?

The ONLY way to defend yourself against this is physical security measures. Door jambs, doors and locks strong enough to keep them out long enough to verify what's really happening. Guns are absolutely the last thing you need in this situation. If you don't keep them out long enough for you to react and get your gun, if it's a gang of criminals you will most likely die. If it is the police, you will most likely die.

You have to buy yourself enough time to either get ready to fight or to discover it's really the police and surrender. You stand little chance any other way. No one can live in condition yellow all the time. You have to be able to go to condition white in your home.

I don't see how criminals using these tactics on the average citizen cannot happen.

I never said they couldn't happen, I said there wasn't a great likelihood of that happening.

 

[Tom488]

no-knock warrants are for extremely extenuating circumstances and are only granted when it is determined that a regular warrant will allow the suspect to hide/destroy evidence or something along those lines.

Ryan Frederick, Virginia... "suspected" of growing pot in his garage. PD executed a no-knock warrant on his house... shots were fired, a cop was killed, and Ryan is doing 10 years. No grow operation existed... officers found a small quantity of pot in his room.

 

[chuckusaret]

If there is a no-knock warrant at my house of 30 years the LEO's had better be prepared for war because I am going to be shooting.

 

[quatin]

I never said they couldn't happen, I said there wasn't a great likelihood of that happening.

Isn't that the reason why we get CHLs? Because the probability of it happening is non-zero.

 

[Rockwell1]

If there is a no-knock warrant at my house of 30 years the LEO's had better be prepared for war because I am going to be shooting.

Does your chest hurt?

I doubt very seriously you'd be fully awake before the police had full control of the house. If you did decide to take on an assualt team WITH body armour, I'd expect they'd have you in a body bag or hand cuffs in less than 5 minutes.

Remember they know they're coming you don't

 

[RP88]

Ryan Frederick, Virginia...

can't really use him as an example. He admitted to lying on a thing or two regarding the tools and other small aspects of his alibi or whatever.

I doubt very seriously you'd be fully awake before the police had full control of the house. If you did decide to take on an assualt team WITH body armour, I'd expect they'd have you in a body bag or hand cuffs in less than 5 minutes.

in reference to Frederick, tell that to the cop who got shot by him. They raided him at 10-11pm. He knew they were coming in and was able to shoot before they got around to actually breaking in the door.

 

[Jeff White]

The next post by someone who wants to tell everyone on the internet how manly he is by threatening to shoot the police and this thread is done.

 

[Art Eatman]

Jeff White is, in the main, correct. The usual "However" comes from good old Houston, Texas. While in no way a regular thing, there have been cases where a well-to-do person was tracked home when leaving the hoity-toity Galeria Mall on the west side. Well-dressed women in Mercedes 500 sedans were prime targets.

Sometimes there would be a robbery in the driveway. In one instance, a woman's ring finger was cut off, making it easier to get the diamond ring. In another such robbery, the woman was killed by a shot to the head, saving a bunch of conversation about what she should do.

Other times, there would later be a home-invasion robbery with a ransacking of the home. SFAIK, none were murdered.

Probably, a hardened entry-way as a first line of defense and a loud yell of, "I'm calling 911!" is about all that can be done.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

Ryan Frederick, Virginia... "suspected" of growing pot in his garage. PD executed a no-knock warrant on his house... shots were fired, a cop was killed, and Ryan is doing 10 years. No grow operation existed... officers found a small quantity of pot in his room


didn't follow the case to its conclusion did ya? it shows. shocker ryan lied.

 

[deerhunter61]

Shoot them.....ask questions later....

Oh that was Harry's method...perhaps it woiuld still work?

Maybe not.....

 

[slidelock15]

Jeff; According to the CATO INSTITUTE, wrong address raids are happening to innocent families. As to your point regarding the probability of sucess of resisting a swat team with gunfire, I agree with you. The chances are small. Short of a hardened house, the chances of effective resistance are very small. The solution is to stop no knock warrants and to prosecute police officers who make that kind of mistake. If a police officer assaults the wrong address, they should be prosecuted exactly the same as a criminal who does so. Specifically, if they shoot a homeowner, they should be charged with a homicide. Knowing they faced such prosecution would virtually eliminate such mistakes. Now where did I leave that dang crack pipe?

 

[t165]

Criminals will do anything to get an upper hand. They have been posing as police officers for years. St. Valentines Day Massacre. Professional hitmen love to use this tactic because it is very effective. Rapist use vehicles similar to patrol cars with flashing lights to stop and they control their victims. It was so bad in my area for a while that women were being told by the various police agencies to drive to a populated lite area before stopping for the police. They would not be punished for not stopping immediately. Nobody hates law enforcement impersonators more than law enforcement. It makes a difficult job that much worse.

Unfortunately there are no easy answers...if any one has a perfect remedy to this problem I would love to hear it. There are laws in place against impersonating LE but we are dealing with criminals here...they do not respect laws. That is why gun control does not work. This is truly a lose/lose situation. And Jeff White has pointed out a disturbing trend...some members seem to enjoy the thought of murdering law enforcement officers. I've read comments on other threads and was surprised how much hatred some individuals harbor toward law enforcement. I would think armed LE impersonators staging home invasions would be one area where citizens and law enforcement would work together.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Let's have some answers. I really want to know why this topic comes up again and again around here.

Because it's really troubling. You have no idea whether or not to shoot. If it's a criminal there's a risk of them killing you if you don't, if it's a cop they will kill you if you do shoot.

 

[chuckusaret]

Battering ram will not work on my front door. It is a new hurricane proof, reinforced steel door frame, steel door with nine 3/4" dead bolts. Designed to take winds above 180 MPH.

 

[t165]

I've been on several no-knock warrant entries. Nobody ever got shot. We sledgehammered the down the doors while shouting we were the police. The drug gang members knew the drill...they laid on the floor with their hands where we could see them. We were hitting these guys every other week at different locations around town there for a while. They were handcuffed...we smashed their toilet and fished the drugs out of the pipes and ramsacked the places because they are quite clever at hiding their product. After that we hauled them all to jail. During the book-in/fingerprint sessions the dopers all whispered they wanted to cut a deal when they were out of earshot range of their accomplices. I might...might of known the address 15-20 minutes prior to taking the place down. Drug agents keep their investigations close to the vest. You just trust the informants gave good information and trust that LE and the judge who signed the warrant got everything right. Some larger jurusdictions have special teams...perhaps a SWAT division which executes the no-knock warrants. it could be the first time the officers have ever been to the residence they are taking down. You just hope the secretary typing up the warrant didn't get a numeral wrong. The last thing LE wishes to do is raid the house of law abiding citizens. The last thing LE wants is a shootout with a citizen...nobody wins that. There are civil remedies in place to punish government and their servants if a mistake occurs. Don't exacerbate the situation by going Rambo. Even the dopers I dealt with were smarter than that!

A lot of what happens on TV is just that...it's TV. Many of these obscure videos on the internet depicting police shootings are fictitious. And yes, some no-knock entries do go terribly wrong. As long as judges issue no-knock warrants the police will execute them. I honestly wish there was a way to ensure perfection during their execution.

 

[HuntAndFish]

Let's have some answers. I really want to know why this topic comes up again and again around here.

Well, the reason it comes up may be the same reason that I always read threads like this one.

It's hard to contemplate something worse than surviving an encounter like this and finding out after the fact that you did indeed shoot some police officers doing their jobs. Watching a police family grieve, knowing you are any part of the cause of that, would be very hard to live with no matter what the final legal outcome.
If there was even a hint of some way to avoid that, I want to read it.

 

[503glock]

? is there a rash of bad no knock warrants that we should be aware of ? i know it happens but really not offten i am sure .