Police raid wrong house...

[Deanimator]

The issue of raids on innocent citizens is important enough not be derailed by discussions of how we are going to deal with home invaders of any type. Doing so will only rapidly cause this to be construed as "cop bashing" and shut down.

What people are doing is illustrating the excessive danger that overuse of no-knock warrants causes.

I've had a LOT of death threats against me, backed up by my address and even maps to my house posted on the internet.

I'm not a criminal. I don't associate with criminals. I've NEVER used drugs in my life, much less sold them. That being the case, what do you expect me to do if somebody crashes into my home tonight? If that happens, I have to engage and neutralize the threat. And once again, I've got DOCUMENTED proof that there IS a threat. Tell me what's more likely to cause me harm, to shoot anybody who breaks into my home as soon as they do, barring ABSOLUTE proof that they're the police? Or to sit on my butt and let somebody murder me?

This isn't theoretical for me. If somebody kicks in my door tonight, somebody's going to die. I might be one of the casualties, but I guarantee I won't be ONLY casualty.

 

[wooderson]

Next time someone's ragging on those blood-sucking trial lawyers and their 'frivolous lawsuits,' remember cases like this.

 

[El Tejon]

Darn those lawyers!

 

[BryanP]

If I were web-site savy, I'd create a web-site called www.noknockisolatedincident.com I bet it would be loaded down...

It's been done already.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

 

[romma]

Thanks Bryan. I'll book mark this!

 

[Cesiumsponge]

The Agitator usually gets several stories a week on botched raids of various types. Radley Balko has written for CATO and several other places as well.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Oh My Gawd!!!!! Let's outlaw all Police Departments!!!

I'm guessing you meant that as a funny, but it might be a good start.

Either that, or outlaw all judges, so they can't issue any more "dynamic entry" warrants. There is NO substantive difference between a "no knock" and an ordinary search warrant when the legal standard is that the police can knock on your door at a time when they KNOW you're sound asleep, and if you haven't answered the door within 15 to 20 seconds it is considered a "sufficient" interval and they are then free to demolish the house to gain entry.

 

[exar]

15 to 20 seconds

Most officers will tell you that you get 5 seconds to answer.

 

[Caimlas]

More and more, I'm thinking the solution (as a citizen) is to make your house as hardened as possible. If they can't get in to surprise you in the first place, you have more options (and time to ID them as police).

my two cents.

Kael, that's dead on. If not from unlawful 'police' entry, then from unlawful entry from the increasing precentage of criminally minded this country is fostering, whether they be native gang elements or immigrant.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Most officers will tell you that you get 5 seconds to answer.

It's not what the officers tell you but what the courts say that's legally binding, and I think the courts are generally in the 15 to 20 seconds range. Even that's woefully inadequate, of course. It would take a full several minutes of pounding on my front door to wake me up, and once awake it would take me more than 20 seconds to find my slippers, turn on a light and find my way down the stairs to the front door.

 

[EricTheBarbarian]

the worst part about this and what worries me is that if they kick in my door and my house is "that wrong house" im going to start shooting. when i start shooting id be killed dead for sure fighting 15 or so of those thugs coming into my house. An apology from the Police chief or offer to repair the damages is going to do no good by then. maybe the best thing to do is fortify where you live so one hit doesnt bust your door jamb out and gives you time to react. the ideal thing is to not have any of these no knock searches, i dont see that happening anytime soon though. heres a pic of my added defense onto the door of my apt, luckily havent had to need it yet.

 

[floridaboy]

So they have a "tip" that a suspect with a gun is in the house. They have time to get a warrant, no-knock or other, not sure it matters, and arrange a swat team. Maybe I'm not too bright, but why not surround the house and knock on the door? Seems to me that they had plenty of people on hand. or maybe they just could have kept an eye on things until he came out. I'm no anarchist, yet, but I think the legal system is way the h*** out of whack.






Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian!

 

[kalashnikat]

No-Knock makes No-Sense.

So if they'd identified themselves and knocked, would they expect the guy with the gun to flush it down the drain? Absolutely they should sue the city, the individuals and the higher ranks who planned and approved that raid, up to and including the judge, if it was specified as no-knock.:banghead:

Worst case, if the guy they were looking for had actually been there they'd have likely been charging in on an individual with a gun in hand...and obviously they didn't properly surveil the place or they'd have known there were innocents present. Lazy, sloppy, shoddy, and illegal, potentially deadly malfeasance and malpractice by the "law" enforcers.

Whoever planned and approved that raid should have been first through the door and should have received a face full of 00 buck.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

One might also wonder why the grandchildren were handcuffed. Assuming the police had at least a vague idea of what their intended suspect looked like, it should have been immediately apparent that the kids were not the targets (nor, presumeably, was the 60-year old woman), so why the blazes were they detained in handcuffs? Why weren't they removed from the house and taken to the nearest McDonalds for a cup of coffee and a Big Breakfast so they'd be out of harm's way if the alleged miscreant popped out of a closet and started shooting?

I forgot ... we must not assume facts not in evidence. Perhaps the police did NOT have a description oif their suspect, and thus the kids and the grandmother were legitimate targets.

 

[obxned]

Sue them!

 

[PedalBiker]

I say give them a fair trial. It sure looks like breaking and entering, assualt with a deadly weapon and kidnapping. I'd be willing to hear the evidence and give them a fair trial, though.

That's what the courts are for isn't it?

 

[nobody_special]

No, the courts are for throwing out such cases due to "sovereign immunity."

 

[xd45gaper]

... shakes head man im glad i moved out of that state along time ago, hunting and trapping was good, that was about it seems you wont be able to do much of that anymore unless you use a single shot lol

 

[ebd10]

Oh My Gawd!!!!! Let's outlaw all Police Departments!!!

No don't outlaw them , privatize them Make them face the same competition as any other service. When something like this goes on, you can fire them and get a new police department. As long as government has a monopoly on force, this kind of stuff will continue to happen.

 

[ceetee]

Can judges be sued for the damages resulting from the search warrants they issued? Part of the problem as I see it is the judge not requiring any substantiation before giving his official okey-dokey...

 

[mountainclmbr]

I bet I know a house that has a gun in Chicago. Last name is Daley.

 

[thexrayboy]

Four days after more than a dozen heavily armed police officers raided her Elgin home, Betty Granger got the news she was waiting for early Thursday: The city would repair the damage—pronto.

Four days... . That is considered pronto?

Now maybe the PD is telling the truth, maybe not. However, I get kinda suspicious that they may have gone beyond the limits of a search warrant for "a person" when the clearing of a house takes TWO HOURS.
Seems like they may have some wrongdoing on the part of the LEOs there, even if the original address was "an honest mistake".

It's Illinois, where if your transgressions are not caught on videotape they did not occur.

 

[Autolycus]

4 days would piss me off. I think it is an awfully long time to wait for the city to fix their mistake. I would be planning a lawsuit for additional damages.

 

[yhtomit]

What threads like this make me crave ...

... is an unobtrusive camera system throughout my home (and car), battery-backed, running whenever there's movement, recording to either off-site data storage or at least to some non-obvious, durable storage. No visible cameras -- those. perhaps, could be the "backup" system, though hopefully would serve as deterrent as well. For purposes of keeping law enforcement honest (and for documenting it when conventional criminals are not), such a system doesn't need too much resolution.

And Yes, clearly this is a technically feasible arrangement (I don't need any links to small cameras or tiny recorder to match, thanks, though I'm not trying to discourage especially nifty ones ); for now, though, it goes on the wishlist behind a great many other things.

Police should be watched, for the very good reason that they have a grant of authority to use force, including non-defensively. I also think that police of the type who don't actually need watching are the ones who would generally welcome it -- hence the need in the first place!

Musing on this topic; I'd feel a lot better if every single government camera (Philadelphia seems to be getting into this kick) had a split feed so citizens could get their tax dollars' worth out of them by independently recording and observing their output to the degree they choose to; Neighborhood Watch II. As has been noted many times on this board with chapter and verse, the police have no individualized duty to protect citizens, but only the populace at large -- so the question of who's peering into your windows at dusk is one that might concern you and your neighbors even though it's not even a blip on the people paid to deal with crime.

(Note: This is not an endorsement of government cameras everywhere! )

timothy

 

[Anotherguy]

I live 20 miles from Elgin and never saw or heard anything on the news or any other media outlet about this incident until I read this thread.

So all it takes now for some judge to issue a no knock warrant is for some faceless, nameless person to "inform" the police that you have a gun in your home?

Where IS the outrage. If no legal action is taken against the Elgin PD or any other PD for that matter, these incidents are only going to become more and more common and eventually be considered normal practice.