Cross draw/Calvary draw

[NewGuy1911]

From a post by ArmedMan #6

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=736945

Some surfing suggests the Cavalry draw is a no-no, what about a cross-draw holster at or near 9:00 to 9:30 something like ArmedMan shows?

Thinking this position more conceilable on my youthful body.

 

[Sam1911]

Not sure I follow. What exactly are you trying to do?

 

[NewGuy1911]

The holster I have lets the pistol butt print behind me on the right side. I might get more concealment from a should holster/cross draw set-up. My present holster is like the Wilson-combat/nighthawk style. Just does not work for me with the 1911.

 

[Sam1911]

There are far too many drawbacks with a cross-draw holster or shoulder holster to abandon strong-side carry just because you think the butt prints.

What holster are you using exactly? Can you post a picture?

Some holsters are "straight drop" (muzzle points directly at the floor) and that does let the butt project a bit behind you. Many others have a bit of forward "cant" -- rotating the muzzle rearward, and so the butt upward more in line with your side. A bit slower on presentation, but a bit better on concealment.

A few can be used either way.

This is a "speed scabbard" or "pancake" design sold by DeSantis:

(LINK)

In the picture the wearer has the belt run through the top belt slot which drops the front of the holster, rotating the butt up along his side -- that's the forward cant which is very good for concealment.

He could also choose to run the belt through the lower slot which would rotate the gun upward for a straight-drop carry. A bit faster for range use or competition.

Note, that holster design does something else well, which is that, since the belt passes through the top layer of leather as well as the bottom layer, the hoslter draws the gun in tight against your side, and also smooths out the outside profile as you tighten your belt. Those things are more important than whether the butt prints a little.

 

[Sam1911]

Here's a "Bruce Nelson" or "Tunnel" style holster, as sold by Dillon Precision:



While this is a very quick holster, and great for competition use, it has a very straight drop, so that butt projects to the maximum degree, and it also doesn't draw the gun in tight against your body quite as well as the pancake design.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Why is a "cavalry" draw bad? If you do it right you shouldn't muzzle-sweep yourself.

 

[rcmodel]

How can it be good if you have to turn your arm around backwards to get a grip on the gun???

A proper strong-side holster simply will not print as bad as any butt forward carry cross-draw ,or bass-Ackwards grip 'Calvary Draw' holster.


You only imagine people are seeing or staring at your gun under your cover garment.

They actually aren't.

98% of the adult male population would not know a gun printing under your shirt if it jumped out and shot them three times.

The other 2% are either cops, or crooks.
Or someone who is having weird thoughts about how your designer jeans fit you so tightly!!!
And they are not looking at your gun!

Females on a cell-phone?
Less then 0.1% I would guess!

Fuggedaboutit!

rc

 

[9mmepiphany]

The holster I have lets the pistol butt print behind me on the right side. I might get more concealment from a should holster/cross draw set-up. My present holster is like the Wilson-combat/nighthawk style. Just does not work for me with the 1911.

I'm suspecting that you are wearing the holster too far forward.

There is a hollow behind the point of your hip where a gun will hide perfectly on most people.

Over the years, 40+, I've likely carried a handgun in any positions you have considered and more. Every position has an optimal use, most very limited, but I've always returned to a strong side carry.

The optimal use for a calvary carry is in the MOB, as it allows the most natural draw...for the right hand. But the MOB carry is in itself of limited use...standing post in formal dress...with a huge downside if involved in a fight

 

[rcmodel]

+1

While we are at it though?

Lets put the gun butt foreword to give the bad guy the best fighting chance of grabbing the grip, snatching it out of your holster, and shooting you with your own gun!!

Yea!
That's the ticket!!

rc

 

[NewGuy1911]

Cavarly draw Chip Glaylord book

Paddle holster at 3:00, 3:30, and 4:00. Nighthawk/Wilson Combat style slight forward cant. No way this will hide under a T-shirt. How picky is IDPA if under a light vest.

Did buy an Askins Avenger, have not tried it.

Not for action-type sports, the cross draw might conceal a little better on some one with a front tire.

Happy Holidays

 

[JTQ]

Paddle holster at 3:00, 3:30, and 4:00.

In general, paddle holsters don't conceal well. Most have too much "mechanism" to allow the holster to ride close to the body.

Nighthawk/Wilson Combat style slight forward cant.

I don't know what this is. Could you identify the holster from Wilson's website?

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Holsters/departments/186/

 

[9mmepiphany]

Nighthawk/Wilson Combat style slight forward cant.

You're going to have to be more specific about the style of holster...neither Wilson nor Nighthawk design or make holsters

 

[Sam1911]

Paddle holster

Yeah, paddles offer about the lowest concealment level possible. They project quite far from the body, don't have any "smoothing" function to reduce the bumpy projection away from your hip. They are convenient, at the expense of almost all concealability.

at 3:00, 3:30, and 4:00.

3:00 is going to be your least concealable position -- right out there at the point of your hip bone. Even 4:00 may not be far enough back to really hit the sweet spot. Don't go any farther than the 5:00 position or you'll start putting it over your kidney or even spine -- not good -- but 4:00 - 4:30 is about where most folks find their concealment sweet spot.

Nighthawk/Wilson Combat style slight forward cant.

Doesn't help much. Wilson does offer a pancake style holster, though, that would likely suit you much better.

No way this will hide under a T-shirt.

A t-shirt? Yeah, not much conceals really well under just a t-shirt. If you're going to conceal with only a t-shirt you might end up needing something like a tuckable IWB holster to really make that satisfactory.

How picky is IDPA if under a light vest.

IDPA? IDPA just requires that the holster not be directly visible when you hold your arms straight out to the side. The rules say nothing at all about "printing."

Did buy an Askins Avenger, have not tried it.

That's the same basic idea as the "Bruce Nelson" or "tunnel" style I posted before. It will give better concealment than any paddle holster, but not as good as a pancake/speed-scabbard style, and definitely not as good as an IWB.

But, as others said, worrying about printing is sort of a newbie mistake. No one's looking, no one notices, and you will stop feeling conspicuous in a few weeks of carrying experience.

Not for action-type sports, the cross draw might conceal a little better on some one with a front tire.

Well, you're right that cross-draws aren't applicable for competition as they pose grave risks to bystanders from the muzzle being pointed the wrong way when you clear leather. But they don't really offer the concealment benefits some folks think they would. They just redirect the lump from there to here. The holster features that would tuck a gun butt well in against your gut on the weak side will tuck it in well against your hip on the strong side, too.

 

[tacxted]

IWB at around 1:00. Ive been using this position for awhile with my g26. It can be comfortable and has very good concealment, the gun is quick to access and easy to draw. im 6 foot 200 lbs and this method will disappear under a tee shirt and overshirt.

 

[Sam1911]

Some folks really seem to like "appendix carry" such as up in front at the 1:00 position.

The OP did mention IDPA (not sure if that's important to him or not, really) and a position forward of the hip isn't legal for that.

And he said he's carrying a 1911. If that's a 4-5" barrel, he's probably not going to like appendix carry very much! Not so bad with a short compact or sub-compact, like a G26.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I don't like cross draws. You have to reach across your body and that is slower. The exception is a shoulder holster but that's for the woods. When you have to squat, you piece is in the same place all the time.

 

[NewGuy1911]

Pancake

http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/custom-leather.html

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Lo-Profile/products/196/

http://www.ubgholsters.com/owb.htm "Bonneville"

Having never owned a semi-auto pistol and also being out of this sport for some 35+ years, I bought a 4" Kimber 1911 45 acp. It felt right. Someone posted a used NH holster for sale and I jumped on it, knowing zip! Looking at the holster with pistol, from above, these no way it will "pull-in" the pistol butt/heel. Maybe I bought someone else's problem, or a second.

Is a holster placed at 4:30 to 5:00 still IDPA legal? Is that still considered sweeping the target. If some one with a cross draw stands at 45 degrees towards the target they would be sweeping less. If a person was very afraid of car jackings the cross draw might make scents.

The young Naval Officer that was conceal carrying in the Los Vagas Costco was printing and it did not end will for his family.

Many, many thanks for the responses. Many of you have a life time of experience.

Anyone UBG Holster owners?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Lets put the gun butt foreword to give the bad guy the best fighting chance of grabbing the grip, snatching it out of your holster, and shooting you with your own gun!!

That's not a disadvantage that I've considered but it is obviously a scenario that could present itself.

 

[Sam1911]

Is a holster placed at 4:30 to 5:00 still IDPA legal?

Assuming you're right-handed, 4:30-5:00 will be just behind the point of your hip bone, and that's right where IDPA dictates it has to be for use in competition.

Is that still considered sweeping the target.

I'm not sure what you mean? You're allowed to "sweep" the target -- it is encouraged -- but not sweep bystanders.

If some one with a cross draw stands at 45 degrees towards the target they would be sweeping less.

To draw from a cross-draw holster safely (on a firing line or range) one has to stand turned about 135 degrees around from their normal firing position, draw the gun, then turn back around to shoot -- all the while keeping the muzzle carefully downrange. That makes it difficult to practice, as the motion is unnatural and alarming to bystanders -- if the range allows it at all. Very easy to screw up and end up pointing the gun at someone and/or back up range.

If a person was very afraid of car jackings the cross draw might make scents.

Yes, someone who drives a lot and spends more time in the car seat at stop lights than standing in public (like a taxi driver, for instance) would really benefit from a cross-draw holster. In fact, there are holsters set up just for that sort of thing.

 

[Sam1911]

That's not a disadvantage that I've considered but it is obviously a scenario that could present itself.

It tends to be overlooked because most folks have an idea of what a gunfight looks like, and in that scenario the good guy and bad guy are some distance apart and the good guy draws his gun and prepares to defend himself as the bad guy approaches.

In the real world, many encounters happen a lot closer than that, and can develop in ways that leave you very vulnerable. If some guy is getting aggressive with you and he's managed to close in so you're essentially standing belly-to-belly, which one of you has the better position if you're wearing a cross-draw holster? If someone were to knock you down and jump on you or grapple with you, who does the cross-draw holster favor?

Maybe he grabs the gun and there it is, pointed at your belly. Maybe it's just that his body and position blocks your ability to reach across and access the gun -- and you're either left with trying to draw it backwards with your weak hand, or if you do snake your hand through between you and draw the gun, now you've got to pull your arm back somehow to bring the gun to bear on him. Strong-side doesn't induce those concerns.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

In the real world, many encounters happen a lot closer than that

Yeah, I've read that in the old West shootouts (not the stand ten paces apart and draw it out it the street ones of Hollywood, the real ones) there were times when the combatants' clothing actually caught on fire from the muzzle flash. Even with BP loads that would have to be very close range.

And there's a reason the 7 yard target is so popular among law enforcement, defensive shooting classes and CHL requirements.

 

[armoredman]

I was asked by a member here to post this picture of how I used a cross draw holster. I have been called many foul names for this one, (thanks to those who came up with new combinations of bad words - I can use those at work), by many different people, but it is a version that worked/works pretty well under a light jacket/vest, for a BUG. I call it my, "It's OK, just let me get my wallet for you" draw...
The name of the holster company has been blacked out, as they are no longer in business, unfortunately.



I also do this with an IWB rig.

As for concealing under a t-shirt, this works wonders for me, a High Noon Down Under, High Noon Rock Steady belt and a full size CZ SP-01 Phantom, and yes, it conceals under a t-shirt in AZ summer weather.



I also concur, paddle rigs are terrible for concealment, unless you're wearing a parka.

 

[NewGuy1911]

My limited understanding of the real old day shootings; two about equally matched tended not to face each other and some fast-hands would "surprise" or back shoot.

 

[JTQ]

The Wilson Lo-Profile has a trailing loop (as do all pancakes) that does a pretty good job of pulling the grip in close to the body. One disadvantage of the Lo-Profile, is it has a relatively shallow cant. Usually more cant will help as it will allow the grip to rotate closer to the vertical. The more horizontal the grip is, the greater chance you'll have for the grip to stick out the back like a diving board. Much like Sam1911 commented about the straight drop holster from Dillon Precision.

Here is an excellent series of pictures from forum member tmoore912 at post #29 in this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567867&highlight=tmoore912

While these are all IWB holsters, you can see what wearing just behind the hip will do for concealment.

As Sam1911 comments

3:00 is going to be your least concealable position -- right out there at the point of your hip bone. Even 4:00 may not be far enough back to really hit the sweet spot. Don't go any farther than the 5:00 position or you'll start putting it over your kidney or even spine -- not good -- but 4:00 - 4:30 is about where most folks find their concealment sweet spot.

With the holster behind your hip, the hip will lever the leading edge of the holster out (along the top of the slide) which will bring the grip closer to your body.

You can see how the grip of tmoore912's 1911 is pressed against his body. Admittedly, everyone has a different body shape, but putting the gun behind the hip is usually an advantage for concealment.

 

[NewGuy1911]

JTQ, Thanks!

The "model" is slimer and in better shape. Also, really hate to say this butt (mine) does not stick out much.

I bought the NightHawk/Wilson Combat pancake (?) used and it could have even been a second. Nighthawk showed no interest in replacing it. The Heel/butt of the Kimber Carry Pro II HD sticks out and is not pulled in. My arm would hit it a 3:00 and 4:00- 4:30 will print under light clothing; have a beer gut.

Thanks guys

Have a UBG Bonneville on order, hoping for the best.