Cutting Edge 10mm and .45 HG Solid Bullets

[5pins]

I had the opportunity to shoot some Cutting Edge .45 ACP and 10mm solid copper bullets in some Clear Ballistics Gel. Test pistols were a Colt Delta Elite in 10mm and a Colt 1991 in .45 ACP with 5-inch barrels. Two shot each into four 16 inch blocks of Clear Gel.

The first round out of the 10mm hit at a velocity of 1104fps and penetrated to 50.25 inches. The second round hit at 1118fps and penetrated to 52.75 inches.



Round one in .45 ACP had a velocity of 1052fps and penetrated to 42.25 inches. Number two hit at 1025fps and penetrated to 41.75 inches.



For a more in-depth review click the link.

http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/cutting-edge-10mm-and-45-hg-solid-bullets

 

[jmr40]

That is interesting, thanks for posting. I've seen enough to be convinced that with the right ammo traditional pistols in 10mm, 45, and probably even 9mm are as capable of stopping large predators as the magnum revolvers. I still think a longer barreled revolver is a better option for hunting where longer shots and more precision is needed. But up close and fast I'd leave the revolvers at home.

I've shot the DoubleTap 200 gr hardcast through my G20 and G29. Lots of people shoot lead through Glocks, but I'd not recommend hundreds of rounds without a thorough cleaning. As expensive as those rounds are I won't be shooting many anyway. Just enough to satisfy myself of reliable functioning and POI. After that they are carried only in certain situations.

After reading about Phil Shoemaker stopping a brown bear that charged some fishermen he was guiding with a 9mm loaded with 147 gr Buffalo Bore hardcast bullets I ordered some in both 9mm and 45 ACP.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/alaska-man-kills-charging-brown-bear-with-a-9mm-pistol/

I have no way of testing for penetration, but the 9mm ammo shot fine in 3 different pistols I tried it in. I fired one round of 45 through a Smith M&P and had a malfunction. The fired round ejected and the brass didn't show any over pressure signs. But the next round didn't quite go all the way into battery, and I had a very hard time ejecting it. Not exactly sure what went wrong, but I'm a little spooked about using that ammo in that gun anymore.

 

[CraigC]

That is interesting, thanks for posting. I've seen enough to be convinced that with the right ammo traditional pistols in 10mm, 45, and probably even 9mm are as capable of stopping large predators as the magnum revolvers.

Based on what, wishful thinking?

The cartridges you mentioned are simply incapable of delivering the payload a magnum revolver cartridge can. They don't have the powder capacity and are limited in bullet weight due to length restrictions. They also have nose profile limitations not applicable to revolvers.

The CEB solids are a step in the right direction but you're unable to get the velocities possible with similar cast bullets and slower powders due to those stupid bands. Not enough resistance to build enough pressure for them to burn properly. That's why top loads utilize powders like Power Pistol instead of H110. They also fell short on the nose profile. Some of them are basically just a truncated cone with a small meplat and no ogive. Others more like an LFN.

 

[sparkyv]

What were the bullet weights 5pins? They sure did hold together well.

 

[5pins]

What were the bullet weights 5pins? They sure did hold together well.

190gr for the 10mm and 200gr for the .45.

 

[1KPerDay]

Cool read. Thanks

 

[jmr40]

Based on what, wishful thinking?

Near 5' of bullet penetration, numerous very large animals including cape buffalo, brown bear, and moose taken with such rounds. This isn't just theory, people have actually proven they work.

I'd still take a magnum revolver if hunting because of better accuracy at distance. But for personal protection I leave the magnums at home in favor of semi-auto's that have proven just as capable with the right loads.

 

[1KPerDay]

But for personal protection I leave the magnums at home in favor of semi-auto's that have proven just as capable with the right loads.

That's the bit that's going to cause arguments.

 

[CraigC]

Near 5' of bullet penetration, numerous very large animals including cape buffalo, brown bear, and moose taken with such rounds. This isn't just theory, people have actually proven they work.

I'd still take a magnum revolver if hunting because of better accuracy at distance. But for personal protection I leave the magnums at home in favor of semi-auto's that have proven just as capable with the right loads.

Near 5' of penetration in what? Who proved they work? Who has taken Cape buffalo, brown bear and moose with such rounds and what were the results? What bullets? What are the "right loads"? Sorry but 30yrs of handgun hunting tells me otherwise. I don't think you have any idea what it takes to get reliable results on large critters to make such statements. We don't use revolvers strictly for greater effective range. We use them for greater effective cartridges with more effective bullets, at all ranges.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Interesting design and I'd like to trying them out. I'm looking for a monolithic bullet that will survive 10mm carbine velocities.

@5pins where did you get load data from? They said to load using a similar bullet weight and reduce by 0.2 gr of powder to start, but given the length of solid copper projectiles, I'm reluctant. I am too new to reloading to feel comfortable experimenting. Maybe I just need to find a bullet with a similar length. Although, HP versus a monolithic could change things.

 

[5pins]

There is a thread on the 10mm forums about this bullet. I just used it as a guide to come up with a start load. However, my start load was a little on the high side.
http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/cutting-edge-190-grain-copper-solid/

 

[5pins]

Near 5' of penetration in what? Who proved they work? Who has taken Cape buffalo, brown bear and moose with such rounds and what were the results? What bullets? What are the "right loads"? Sorry but 30yrs of handgun hunting tells me otherwise. I don't think you have any idea what it takes to get reliable results on large critters to make such statements. We don't use revolvers strictly for greater effective range. We use them for greater effective cartridges with more effective bullets, at all ranges.

http://razordobbsalive.com/razor-dobbs-kills-two-cape-buffalo-10mm-auto-pistol-interview

 

[CraigC]

Razor Dobbs is a stunt man and most of what he does qualifies as a stunt. Sorry but 10mm is nowhere near enough ass for Cape buffalo, let alone anything bigger. A 200gr 10mm at 1300fps is equivalent to a 230gr .44, which could be accomplished in the .44Spl. Which is about 100gr too light. Having taken 6000lbs worth of angry beef, I don't want any less than a .44 loaded with a 330gr cast (preferably 355gr), 300gr Punch or 300gr Barnes Buster bullet.

 

[BigBore44]

Razor Dobbs is a stunt man and most of what he does qualifies as a stunt. Sorry but 10mm is nowhere near enough ass for Cape buffalo, let alone anything bigger. A 200gr 10mm at 1300fps is equivalent to a 230gr .44, which could be accomplished in the .44Spl. Which is about 100gr too light. Having taken 6000lbs worth of angry beef, I don't want any less than a .44 loaded with a 330gr cast (preferably 355gr), 300gr Punch or 300gr Barnes Buster bullet.

Craig,
You ever get tired hearing what Razor Dobbs did? I think I was the first to post that story last year. And you basically said the same thing. It was a stunt.

Maybe it was a stunt. But it did prove that it can be done....effectively. The gun, shooter, and bullet have to perform correctly and bullet placement must be precise. But really, that’s true no matter what you’re using.

I would like to know how much penetration he got on that buffalo. Obviously, it WAS enough. But, to me, when it comes to critters like Cape Buffalo and Brown Bear, I’m not sure “enough” is ever enough.

I would like to see that same test, into the same gel, with the 10mm 190’s and a 44mag with 330gr hardcasts or punches. That would give you a real comparison at least for ballistics gel. Things can change when heavy bone gets involved though.

 

[CraigC]

I do and it's always taken out of context. As if it's just easy as pie to waltz out there and kill a buffalo with a 10mm. Or like here, that because it did work, then it's "just as good" as the big bore revolvers. Sure, it worked, the critter is dead but the presentation was perfect and no major bones were encountered on the way in. Pardon the pun but doing something like this is walking a razor's edge between being a hero and being dead. It's a publicity stunt and I wouldn't shoot anything bigger than a deer with the 10mm.

I am going to test these and more in SIMTEST before it gets too hot. Probably in the next month or so. I have some hardcast loads but guess I need to get some of these CEB solids to see how they fare against the heavier revolver solids. It will be the first time the 10mm cylinder for my Ruger Buckeye has ever been used.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

There is a thread on the 10mm forums about this bullet. I just used it as a guide to come up with a start load. However, my start load was a little on the high side.
http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/cutting-edge-190-grain-copper-solid/

Interesting read and thanks for the link. I'm not trying to parrot what I've read on the internet, but I have heard that older Delta Elites tend to have poor chamber support. Do you feel using that firearm perhaps enhanced the pressure signs you were seeing? I know you mentioned flattened primers, but I'm surprised by the issues you were having versus what Ridgerunner was posting. He said he was getting fine results at nearly a full grain more of Longshot than you were.

If I decide to try these bullets, I will be shooting them out of a Sig P220 5", and a Kriss Vector CRB with a 16" barrel. I'm wondering if the slower powders being mentioned as less than optimal for this bullet, like A#9, would still be a good choice for my carbine.

 

[5pins]

Interesting read and thanks for the link. I'm not trying to parrot what I've read on the internet, but I have heard that older Delta Elites tend to have poor chamber support. Do you feel using that firearm perhaps enhanced the pressure signs you were seeing? I know you mentioned flattened primers, but I'm surprised by the issues you were having versus what Ridgerunner was posting. He said he was getting fine results at nearly a full grain more of Longshot than you were.

If I decide to try these bullets, I will be shooting them out of a Sig P220 5", and a Kriss Vector CRB with a 16" barrel. I'm wondering if the slower powders being mentioned as less than optimal for this bullet, like A#9, would still be a good choice for my carbine.

Yes, I do think the Colt DE was part of the issue. IIRC Ridgerunner was using a Glock with an aftermarket barrel.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Yes, I do think the Colt DE was part of the issue. IIRC Ridgerunner was using a Glock with an aftermarket barrel.

Well you inspired me 5pins. Despite the difficulty getting this bullet up to warp speed, I think the penetration and weight characteristics are desirable for a woods defense cartridge. And I only have mountain lions to worry about, so this would be plenty.

I think I'm going to order 150 of them once I get a chronograph. I want to experiment with the 10mm a bit.

 

[paul105]

Was working up some loads for my Kahr CW45 with 200gr Cutting Edge WFN Solid and Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator (phillips head nose). Had a couple left after chrono work and shot them at the bottom of a large popper from about 5 yards. I was at a slight angle so the bullets wouldn't come straight back at me. Bullets very hot when picked up from the ground -- had to "hot potato" them back to the bench.

Top bullet is Lehigh, bottom Cutting Edge (shot at a bit more of an angle). Velocity was right at 1,000 fps. Both spent bullets weighed 200gr. The bottom of the popper was basically the "immovable object". Not suggesting this type of expansion would occur in soft tissue or on bone -- would expect no expansion at all. Just thought the results were interesting.



Paul

 

[The Happy Kaboomer]

Cast bullets will do the same thing as a solid copper one will.......A lot cheaper.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Cast bullets will also lead a barrel with polygonal riffling.

They will also violate the laws in areas where lead projectiles are prohibited.

Copper monolithics exist for specific reasons and scenarios.