CZ75 SP01 vs Beretta M9A1
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arthury
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Trigger reset distance
What about the trigger reset distance: are they more or less the same?
What about the trigger reset distance: are they more or less the same?
Walt Sherrill
Member
Probably closer to 500,000 than 250,000. (I think the original order, back in the mid-1980s, was 450,000 -- and they've bought more, since then.)
This whole discussion may be another example of the much-discussed INTERNET FACT/MYTH conundrum at work -- and the problem may be more apparent than real.
The US Military DID have problems with locking block failures,and with slides cracking. Retrofits and modifications seemed to resolve the problems. Beretta supposedly designed the locking block to survive 22,000 rounds, and I've read tests of Berettas pushed to near that number of rounds without problems.
That there have been any failures of any sort is a little surprising, as sidearms really aren't used all that much in combat, and non-combatants generally use them only for periodic qualification courses. (Handguns are a poor source of stopping power on the battlefield... one Navy Seal I met said he'd rather carry an extra full canteen than a pistol, happily relying on his other weapons instead of a handgun.)
All that said, and if the stories we hear are TRUE and not internet myths, can you cite any OTHER major gun maker's product with comparable problems? The US military and Federal agencies use a lot of SIGs (but NOT almost 500,000), and there have been MANY, MANY 1911s in service over the years.
(Note: I think a lot of folks are still P.O.d that the U.S. mlitary chose an Italian-made weapon rather than something from Colt, S&W, or Ruger, and will happily repeat stories that make Beretta look bad.)
Madcap_Magician
Member
I used to think the M9 had the ergonomics of a brick, but people still shoot Glocks, don't they?
Then I shot an M9, and my opinion changed. It still feels bulky, but it's accurate, low-recoil, and is more comfortable shooting than you might guess from the bulk. Also, I have small hands, and the M9 is not problematic.
The CZs are nice guns, and I would give them a better out-of-the-box trigger, but to me the fact that the slide rides inside the frame instead of outside makes the slide substantially harder to manipulate.
Then I shot an M9, and my opinion changed. It still feels bulky, but it's accurate, low-recoil, and is more comfortable shooting than you might guess from the bulk. Also, I have small hands, and the M9 is not problematic.
The CZs are nice guns, and I would give them a better out-of-the-box trigger, but to me the fact that the slide rides inside the frame instead of outside makes the slide substantially harder to manipulate.
HorseSoldier
Member
In my days as a support guy in an SF unit the general rule of thumb was that for every day on the range with reasonably heavy pistol training about one locking block per fifty shooters would fail. Weapons sergeants and armorers made it a habit of always carrying extra locking blocks to the range because breakage was expected. This was mid to late 2000's, after Beretta's improvement of the locking block design (radiusing the edges, IIRC, but might be wrong).
My personal belief is that the M9 didn't handle M882 9mm ammo very well, as it's loaded somewhere towards the +P side of things. Some of the SF team guys I worked with believed it had a lot to do with springs not being regularly maintained/replaced at an appropriate rate by the army's official maintenance schedule, which is why SOF units (who train with pistols a lot) have significant issues with locking block failures but line units who train once in a blue moon with them rarely do. I also heard a theory back in those days that if a locking block failed that pistol frame likely suffered fatigue/damage that would make it likely to have subsequent failures. (I don't know on the last, which seems like it would be visibly apparent, and it may have been an attempt to explain one pistol we had suffer two locking block failures a couple days -- and maybe 2000 rounds or less -- apart.)
Anyway, long story short -- I find the Beretta to be a workable design with which I feel adequately armed, but I also have some serious reservations about it as a design. If it were not an issued and mandatory weapon, I would not carry it (never did as an LEO, for instance, only on the .mil side).
needmorecowbell
Member
Nothing wrong with the M9, but I'd much rather have the CZ. I consider them both good quality. However the CZ is much more enjoyable to shoot.
Madcap_Magician
Member
A note- The M9A1 has Beretta's improved locking block and should not see the failure rates of the original M9.
MTMilitiaman
Member
What kind of a silly question is that?
CZ.
CZ.
Radagast
Member
I've has a 92FS for ten years, my BIL has a CZ75 SP01 Shadow. I've changed the mainspring in my 92FS so the double action pull is much reduced and lighter than the Shadow.
The CZ has rather sharp edges, including the trigger.
The single action on the CZ is better than many 1911s for crispness of break. The CZ sights can be swapped out. The reset is shorter and the weight of pull lighter. The Beretta has a lot of pre travel, even in single action mode.
The CZ grip feels a tad smaller, which may be important if you have smaller hands.
The CZ is the more accurate of the two, but not by a great deal. For competition shooting i would consider this important, for close range self defense not so much.
Both are available with a factory .22 conversion. I've the Beretta Practice Kit, it is quite reliable but not that accurate, its a training and plinking aid. I've no experience with the CZ Kadet system.
The Beretta has a de-cocker, a major plus point for a carry pistol.
If I was starting again I would choose the CZ in a heartbeat for a range and competition pistol.
The CZ has rather sharp edges, including the trigger.
The single action on the CZ is better than many 1911s for crispness of break. The CZ sights can be swapped out. The reset is shorter and the weight of pull lighter. The Beretta has a lot of pre travel, even in single action mode.
The CZ grip feels a tad smaller, which may be important if you have smaller hands.
The CZ is the more accurate of the two, but not by a great deal. For competition shooting i would consider this important, for close range self defense not so much.
Both are available with a factory .22 conversion. I've the Beretta Practice Kit, it is quite reliable but not that accurate, its a training and plinking aid. I've no experience with the CZ Kadet system.
The Beretta has a de-cocker, a major plus point for a carry pistol.
If I was starting again I would choose the CZ in a heartbeat for a range and competition pistol.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I had a Beretta 92FS for 5 years. It is still a good gun and I get to see it frequently since I sold it to a friend.
I replaced my 92FS with a CZ75 with a decocker.
The Beretta is a fine gun and shot well in my hands. The out of the box trigger on that Beretta was a bit better than my CZ with the Beretta having a cleaner break in single action.
What I couldn't get around was the fat grip of the Beretta and the stabbing motion to swing the safety off. The Beretta really doesn't fit my hand. The CZ does and the decocker on the CZ doesn't slam the hammer down like on the Beretta, which is unnerving to some people.
Both guns shoot equally well in terms of accuracy in my hands or in the hands of others.
I replaced my 92FS with a CZ75 with a decocker.
The Beretta is a fine gun and shot well in my hands. The out of the box trigger on that Beretta was a bit better than my CZ with the Beretta having a cleaner break in single action.
What I couldn't get around was the fat grip of the Beretta and the stabbing motion to swing the safety off. The Beretta really doesn't fit my hand. The CZ does and the decocker on the CZ doesn't slam the hammer down like on the Beretta, which is unnerving to some people.
Both guns shoot equally well in terms of accuracy in my hands or in the hands of others.
wheelyfun66
Member
Have owned both (steel version of CZ, not polymer)
the Beretta has that whole "classic" thing going for it...
But CZ is the most undervalued and overlooked gun around (in my opinion)
Just shot a CZ today, which belongs to a friend. shot it side by side with my new Sig....
The CZ is SO ergonomic....feels perfect in the hand.
Loved the single action trigger pull as well.
the Beretta has that whole "classic" thing going for it...
But CZ is the most undervalued and overlooked gun around (in my opinion)
Just shot a CZ today, which belongs to a friend. shot it side by side with my new Sig....
The CZ is SO ergonomic....feels perfect in the hand.
Loved the single action trigger pull as well.
armoredman
Member
We had a Beretta 92F at the rental range I worked at 11 years ago, locking block broke on it, requiring factory attention. In all fairness it WAS a rental, and got shot a lot. I never saw if the CZ pistols broke under rental conditions - they were stolen off the rental range one night. Seriously.
Bozwell
Member
The Beretta has a nice history and is a very sharp looking gun. That said, if I could only own one, I'd take the CZ. With a bit of work, you can get an almost 1911-esque trigger on the CZ and they're generally just very comfortable, accurate guns to shoot.
armoredman
Member
viking, they left the Beretta behind. 
True story.
It was a popular rental due to the history and the Lethal Weapon films.
True story.It was a popular rental due to the history and the Lethal Weapon films.
The CZ is better out of the box shooting. I'm a average built guy and it feels better in my hand. Even better the my Kimber 1911. I "point" it better and my grip is higher on the frame. The high beaver tail must be worth $100 extra. In fact I no longer buy handguns unless they have a high beaver tail. It also comes with night sights. The SP-01 is my favorite hand gun in a 15 pistol collection.
The Beretta is easier to service and the safety/decocker makes it a safer hand gun. It's easy to learn/start with, which is probably why it was GI. I do like the standard M9 over the M9AI. My first M9 must have 30k rounds down it. It is a classic but the new 92 are not made as well as they were ten years ago. I'm not a big fan of the external trigger bar. Also 92 require a extra $200 if you want to swap out the plastic parts for metal (Like it should be) $300 for the stainless. I love Beretta's but I will admit that they are a little out dated.
If you were to own one pistol and plan not to hit the range often to hone your skills. You just want a home protection pistol or maybe your first pistol. I always say Beretta 92. Anything more, then CZ is a good place to start.
The Beretta is easier to service and the safety/decocker makes it a safer hand gun. It's easy to learn/start with, which is probably why it was GI. I do like the standard M9 over the M9AI. My first M9 must have 30k rounds down it. It is a classic but the new 92 are not made as well as they were ten years ago. I'm not a big fan of the external trigger bar. Also 92 require a extra $200 if you want to swap out the plastic parts for metal (Like it should be) $300 for the stainless. I love Beretta's but I will admit that they are a little out dated.
If you were to own one pistol and plan not to hit the range often to hone your skills. You just want a home protection pistol or maybe your first pistol. I always say Beretta 92. Anything more, then CZ is a good place to start.
Well, I gotta disagree with some of the CZ guys. I have shot some before - I prefer the Beretta 92 platform. Plus, drop in a $5 "D" spring - a factory part to lighten the trigger pull... Instant trigger job - taking off 3lbs from the DA pull and almost a pound off the SA pull. Great gun.
Bozwell
Member
You can do the exact same thing with a CZ Shipwreck by replacing the main spring with a lighter spring. It requires a 1.5mm punch and about 5 minutes of time. That's not really a "trigger job" though - that's just replacing a spring. But, you're right, in both guns it will have a noticeable affect on the DA pull.
With a proper trigger job, the CZ will end up with a much nicer trigger, and that "potential" is one of my favorite things about them. While they aren't bad in stock condition, I always considered them to be "diamonds in the rough" that can really have a fantastic trigger with the right setup.
Both are good guns though.
With a proper trigger job, the CZ will end up with a much nicer trigger, and that "potential" is one of my favorite things about them. While they aren't bad in stock condition, I always considered them to be "diamonds in the rough" that can really have a fantastic trigger with the right setup.
Both are good guns though.
Each has it's good points and each has it's bad. The tough point is what will you like the best (which gun). It is your choice and your money, so you will need to be satisfied with the one you end up with.
I can only tell you what I like or dislike about each design, I do not own or have used either of the two models that you have listed, but do have both types.
Both companies are very good, Beretta for over 500 years and CZ since 1934. Both are popular pistols and each has it's following.
If I had to pick one, it would probably be the 92. While I do not like the safety/decocker on the slide (a real pain in the lower regions) the shape, weight and reliablity of the 92 can not be over looked. The feel of the CZ is the best I have ever had in my hand and is one of the best designed pistols in the world.
First any M-9 that you purchase will NOT be the military version, not legal to sell or so I thought. The other part, that of the slide lock breaking is a non issue, this part needs to be replaced after 5,000 rounds and most 92 owners know this going into a purchase.
I do like the sights and sight radius on the 92 better than the CZ, I like the trigger pull of the 92 over that of the CZ, but I have never tried the SP-01 trigger pull.
Also I am not a big fan of the poly guns, but do own a few. I like the weight of a alloy pistol better than that of the polimer ones.
If I was comparing guns I would look at the 92 FS and the CZ 75 B to compare.
Just my thoughts.
good luck
Jim
My choices:
CZ 75 P-01
Taurus 92 AFS - I use this one for IDPA
arthury
Member
Differences between the two:
- Reset distance: Looks like the reset distance is more or less the same for SA; the 92A1 has a more distinctly tactile feel when it clicks.
- Grip: The grip of the SP01 is certainly more commendable than the 92A1.
- Slide smoothness: Nothing can beat the glassy smooth slide of the 92A1, not even the CZ.
- Mag engagement: For the CZ, when engaging the mag into the pistol, the positive click indicating engagement is not very clear; in fact, it is a little vague.
- Disassembly: The Beretta has the easiest disassembly mechanism I have ever seen, no tools needed; just press a button and flip a tab.
I'll take the SP01 to the range with the 92A1 and feel the difference in terms of performance.
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arthury
Member
Trigger creep: CZ
I forgot to mention that there is a distinct trigger creep in the SP01 just before the trigger is released. Yes, I understand that it can be reduced or eliminated if I send it in to the custom shop and pay more $money. But, I have to say that none of my other 9mm semi-auto (92A1, Px4, M&P9) have a trigger creep that is so distinct. Have to highlight the fact that the Beretta triggers when released in SA mode is as close as I have felt to my 1911's.
I forgot to mention that there is a distinct trigger creep in the SP01 just before the trigger is released. Yes, I understand that it can be reduced or eliminated if I send it in to the custom shop and pay more $money. But, I have to say that none of my other 9mm semi-auto (92A1, Px4, M&P9) have a trigger creep that is so distinct. Have to highlight the fact that the Beretta triggers when released in SA mode is as close as I have felt to my 1911's.
Bozwell
Member
They tend to vary from good to creepy in the stock configuration. Sounds like yours would really benefit from a new hammer or having the hammer hooks redone. If you get to feeling adventurous one weekend, get yourself a CGW hammer kit and install it. It's a good learning experience and it will really transform your CZ's trigger.
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