Daggers, Boot Knives & SD Folders

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Nem,

Both Byron and I trained in Japanese martial arts. There are some techniques that can only be done with single edges, such as reinforcing the spine with your non-dominant hand. This allows a great deal more power, especially if your blade has become dull, or your opponent is wearing thick clothing, and you have a smaller knife. Singles can also be safely held in more grips than doubles. Versatility is one advantage single-edged knives have.

Single-edged knives are also usually stronger than double-edged.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, singled-edged blades are much more likely to be legal.

Double-edged blades don't necessarily penetrate better, and since a natural, saber, or hammer style hold all require cutting in the direction your knuckles are pointing, they can't make powerful cuts any faster, despite the additional cutting surface.

shockwave,

The tanto blade has been proven, along with the Bowie, to be a very effective design.

I don't want to hijack Nem's thread, but I challenge you to start another thread to "prove" just that. Expect to be trounced politely but thoroughly. :)


John
 
I'll add that in Filipino and Indonesian bladed arts the reinforcement of a strike with the off hand occurs as well in some cuts. In FMA you'll find that the reinforcement comes in the form of placing the off hand on the back of the gripping hand or even on the wrist because of the issue of getting cut touching the blade. The same occurs in some Chines forms with swords and knives.

The legal issues around carrying a knife for self defense are almost as significant as those for carrying a gun for self defense. The knife at some point is viewed as a tool in almost any jurisdiction, but the carrying of a dagger is often specifically prohibited because of it's definition as a dangerous weapon. (AG Russell opined that his Sting was a hunting knife with two edges so you could change to the still sharp second edge after dulling the first. Yeaahhhhh, riiighht, AG;)) Somewhere in between are those jurisdictions that allow the carry of smaller fixed blade knives.

As to how to carry, forget all the Wild Wild West and James Bond carry methods. If you're going to conceal a knife stick with a good OWB or IWB sheath. The IWB allows for much more discrete carry and you'd be amazed how big a blade can be discretely carried with most of it out of site with only the grip above the waist band. Smaller blades are very discretely carried as neck knives, but they can get to wear on the wearer when they're blade length approaches 4 inches (unless you want to drop big bucks on a Ti/Carbon fiber model).

I'd also like to avoid hijacking Nem's thread with a debate on so-called tanto's. There have already been plenty of threads debating them with plenty of learning opportunities fulfilled in them.
 
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Even though I'm still most interested in owning one or two double edged daggers or boot knives, this information about the pros of single-edged analogs is interesting and thought-provoking, increasing my appreciation of my SOG seal pup elite, which I truly appreciate and value, especially when I'm in the wilds (even though I often carry it around the studio/workspace as an EDC).

Part of what I'm attempting to do here is to understand the distinction of the niches between the SPE and a dagger of comparable blade length.

I certainly do not view the SPE as a back up knife. That's what I want a boot knife for, and am leaning towards something small and light like the Pentagon Mini. At 3.3 oz, what's not to love (other than the serrated edge that I'm not as fond of)?
 
A cyber-friend in the 642 club - who's advice about those revolvers I trust implicitly
after years of reading his ideas, along with personal knowledge of him and his experience -
posted this in this post after I pasted a link to this thread in that one.

It's relevant in this discussion, so I'm quoting it here.

UCP = "up close and personal", like snub nosed revolvers.

Nem - As far as UCP weapons are concerned, you are right on the money...actually there are many scenarios where the blade is superior to the gun. In extreme CQC when you have lost situational awareness the knife may be faster to deploy and is just as effective, sometimes more so. The importance of being physically fit and practiced in unarmed combat is sometimes (OK, most of the time) not a priority to a lot of concealed carry folks who get into the mindset that the gun is the goto weapon of choice. Many times, if not most times it will be the last. You stand a very good chance of having to fight your way clear to deploy a primary or secondary weapon and that is why it is always good to be...aware... :scrutiny:
 
So, given John's and Hso's comments above about knife use in martial arts, let's discuss training a bit.

Suppose that you were going to recommend a training course for someone like me who does not intend to become a knife fighter per se :eek:, but wishes to learn some basics of ... how to effectively employ a boot knife (4" blade max) in a last-ditch SD role with greatest safety for myself (like not loosing fingers, for example).

What course of study might you recommend? Any books or articles for starters?

I'm assuming the recommendation would differ for single- v double-edged tools,
so since we're discussing both here, let's address both just for completeness.
 
This discussion, this thread, is occurring in multiple cyber-venues. Without naming the others - you can PM me if you wish to know what they are - I'll say that I just read a public post from someone on one of the others that is well-written and relevant here in terms of legalities and training. So I'll copy it in.
______________

Nem,

At the outset, I'll make no claims to expertise, nor list any tactical schools I've trained under, with a knife. A fighting knife, IMO, is very different from a utility knife, and one will not do the job of the other, as effectively.

[Another poster] points out one of the types of knife prohibition law, generally, which is felonious use and intimidating use (e.g., brandishing). Unfortunately, there are a number of types of laws that you should consider in order to set the parameters for knife selection. From my review, knife laws in a State or local jurisdiction, are of the following types (and there may be more, but these are what I found, generally):

(1) Prohibition against possession
(2) Prohibition against open carry
(3) Prohibition against concealed carry
(4) Prohibition against intimidating use (brandishing)
(5) Prohibition against use of a knife in the commission of a crime (whether felony or otherwise)

Any of the first three categories may have prohibitions without looking at your actions, but are based upon type (knives defined as daggers, dirks, trefoils, switchblades, auto-openers) upon blade length, or upon other explicit characteristics (double-edged blades, for example).

I've discussed this subject with peace officers (retired and current) and, I received varying answers, which, to me, were unsatisfactory. I had a po at a gun store tell me that a fixed blade over 3" was illegal, and that any fixed blade surely will be confiscated, if I couldn't answer why I was carrying it, to his satisfaction. Ironically, within a few seconds, he drew a larger AO lockblade with a clip-draw from his front pocket, and extended it to within inches of my face, and said 'this is legal', without any suggestion that the actions he took in drawing it were improper. I was dumbfounded.

On a practical note, with knives, just as wrt some guns, how would one know what you have, until it is deployed? My county has specific laws dealing with concealed carry of knives, and some, who want to carry a larger fixed blade, put it in a sheath, openly displayed on the hip, to stay legal.

Some knife manufacturers (I spoke with one at SHOT, who was very helpful), specifically make their knives a hair shorter than 3", and are confident that they will be 'legal' in most, if not all, jurisdictions (even in Europe).

After considering the legalities on-the-surface, you will find that police officers are not fond of concealed fixed blades. A fixed blade knife is considered by them a VERY deadly weapon, depending on the skill of its user, with good reason. Deployment is very fast, and people, generally, have a very visceral reaction to the presentation of a knife, perhaps more so than to presentation of a firearm.

O.K. so that's IMO a summary of types of laws you should be aware of.

Onto knife selection ....

There are many schools of thought on the use of a fighting knife. The type of martial training you have or don't have should dictate the type of knife used. To my mind there are two major classifications, the Asian sword/knife systems and the Spanish/Euro-American sword/large-knife systems, and, then there are hybrid systems (krav maga, kali, escrima, etc.). They are very different, in that the size, shape, and characteristics of the knife employed relate closely to the 'forms' of martial/hand-to-hand combat in which one may be training.

As a general comparison, Asian systems focus on contracting movements, defensive movements, very close contact with hand-to-hand-elements, blocking, and slashing, while Spanish/Euro-American systems focus on expansive movements, engagement distances, and the thrust, as a primary skill (with slashing as secondary).

I've had difficulty with where and when and how a knife will be the most effective tool, just as I've had difficulties with where and when and how a BUG is to be employed, if at all. It always 'just depends'. E.g., someone may tell you their BUG is a pocket 642, while the primary is a 1911 IWB. But why must one attempt to draw the 1911 first? I simply won't generalize about which one should be deployed first in a confrontation. Same goes with a knife. It may or may not be the primary weapon, depending on the circumstances.

Another topic is the 'ingredients' to your knife. Type of blade (tanto, spear point, recurve, wharncliffe), length of blade, materials, and other components to the blade (types and size of guard, grip and pommel, quillons, notches, etc.). There are many choices here, and anyone who tells you which is best, without qualification, is coming from a perspective of bias, usually, in part, based upon their training pre-requisite martial arts, hand-to-hand combat. The martial arts training, or lack thereof, usually has a big effect on knife selection. But this bias convinces people who have no training in asian martial arts to go out, nonetheless, and acquire a knife not suited to their background.

The knife posted by [another poster] has all the attributes of a traditional euro fighting knife. If you have experience in that style of knife deployment, it can be very effective. I have one very similar that I picked up at a pawn shop, excellent handling/manipulation characteristics, but I can't carry it concealed (it likely would be classifed as a dagger, here, and the length is over 4") in my county, so it stays home.

Know your physical limitations and training background, and how far you are willing to go, training in that style. There isn't necessarily a 'best', so I'm not going to argue Bowie (which I'd prefer, however, based on my own skill-set) over Asian systems, here.

I think the discussion of knives, even moreso than discussion of types of firearms, remains a wide-open area, despite the fact that Americans have been fascinated with and have shown a general bias toward the Asian systems for over a generation now. Knife-design reflects some of that bias. Not necessarily a bad thing, but something to consider.
 
Anyone have any experience with the clinch pick from Shiv Works? While not a dagger or boot knife, it is in a similar vein with its primary purpose being for use as an offensive/defensive tool. (However it is legal in many more places being sub-3" and single-edged)
 
I've played with one. You're right, it isn't a dagger. It is a very effective piece of gear for it's purpose.
 
Nem,

The WA and OR state laws clearly make carrying a dagger illegal regardless of blade length. Pretty simple summary of the laws in the state you're in and closest to you. If you choose to carry one, you need to understand this so you can make an informed decision.

Daggers are predominantly associated with European fighting styles, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any Asian daggers. Most Asian styles are not focused on daggers, though. They focus on single edged knives and the styles you'd learn would almost exclusively focus on the single edged knife for much of the early study.

In summary, WA and OR state law prohibit carrying a dagger legally. If you want to carry a dagger and you don't want to find a western blade combatives school to spend a few months learning from a Maestro how to make it dance, keep it simple and study Applegate and practice.
 
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JShirley: I'll be happy to qualify my remarks somewhat. The "best" knife for a given purpose is always debatable. Something like the tanto I linked to earlier would be a poor choice for an outdoorsman or hunter who wants to dress game. As a general purpose combat knife, they are extremely strong and versatile. If someone is asking for advice about selection, as in this thread, I'll forward this type of knife for consideration. Ultimately, the user will have to make his or her own decision, same as with firearms.

What course of study might you recommend? Any books or articles for starters?
Get a rubber knife and practice with a friend. Nothing in a book will help you as much as real life practice. From an attacking perspective, assuming you aren't interested in lengthy training, it can be effective to hold the handle of the knife with the blade concealed against the back of your wrist and forearm (another argument for single-edge). You can slash, block and transition to a stab, without revealing that you have a knife.

From a basic self-defense standpoint, a knife is just a really useful thing to have in your hand. Hold it in any way that feels strong and natural to you, then fight per normal and let the blade come into play naturally. Use both hands for punching, kick, etc.
 
Suppose that you were going to recommend a training course for someone like me who does not intend to become a knife fighter per se , but wishes to learn some basics of ... how to effectively employ a boot knife (4" blade max) in a last-ditch SD role with greatest safety for myself (like not loosing fingers, for example).

What course of study might you recommend? Any books or articles for starters?


Check out FMA otherwise known as Filipino martial arts --- there are a bunch but the three basic are Eskrima , Kali, and Arnis ------- after takeing Korean Tae Kwon Do for a few years and then Japanese Isshinryu Karate -- I was lucky enough to find a local Datu who taught Eskrima along with JKD etc.

What you will learn is that in a very short time --- a edged weapon , impact weapon , or even empty hands are all interchangeable !!! I had to take Tae Kwon Do and Isshinryu Karate for AT LEAST a year before being taught any kinds of weapons -- with Eskrima , you start on single and double sticks the first day/week !!!

Do a search on youtube ---- you will see many vids on Eskrima to get a idea on what you can learn.
 
Here is your best dagger:

www.pistolanddagger.com

eickhorn.jpg
 
Hiya Nem,
Here is a link to the basic strikes , you will see MANY different " strike systems" or counts in Eskrima --- the most used/agreed on are #1-#4 --- and remember the strikes/angles are the same be it a ballbat/2" blade/sword/nunchuck etc. etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16myQqtAnJc

When you get time , look up "Barong knife/blade" on youtube --- some good vids.
 
Eskrima

GF (and others),

I'm now officially "et up" with Eskrima.

Can't stop reading and watching videos, and am now actively seeking training opportunities with the help of someone via pm. I think it's what I've been looking for for a long time.

I'll not turn this into an Eskrima thread - I'm sure there are good ones out there already (and if not, we'll start one) - but keep it focused on daggers. However, Eskrima is going to be riding in the background (along with Applegate's techniques, I'm told by an adviser).

I did search "Barong knife/blade" and found this. Quite impressive, and they fit the theme of this thread, me thinks. Will look for more videos later. (Sort of overlaps with John's love of kukri, also, I think.)
 
I'm now officially "et up" with Eskrima.

Ah! Well if you're willing to train, then you get to be extremely dangerous with a blade. Eskrima is one of the most widely respected systems in the world, because, like Brazilian jiu jitsu, it has to work for real on the street. I'd happily take a pair of rattan escrima sticks over a knife. Fortunately, you don't have to choose - get both.
 
I'd happily take a pair of rattan escrima sticks over a knife.
I feel the same way, even though Eskrima is brand new to me. Gimme that distance.

Still, having a nice back up boot knife is justified, me thinks.
 
and they fit the theme of this thread, me thinks

My barongs are short swords by most measures (>12-18 inches becomes a short sword). Unless you're looking at some miniature version the barong, or you're 10 ft tall with knee high boots, that's a bit beyond the dagger/boot knife range.

John and I and many others have said repeatedly that under almost all defensive conditions the stick trumps the knife (in the hands of a trained user). It takes a lot of training, and exceptional quickness, for guy with a knife to deal with a guy with a stick.

As shockwave said, if you're willing to train (every week) then you'll find Escrima or Silat or Kali or PTK to be very effective.
 
The Kershaw boot knife is back on my short list.
It makes more sense now on several levels.
I'd like a larger handle, but ... nice blade.

There was a homicide this morning in my town. Night worker.
First of the year here. Reminds me why I'm considering a boot knife.

I'm still et up with stick fighting. Now focusing on Arnis.
In fact, more specifically, Modern Arnis.

Why? Because it focuses on one stick.
Kind of like one knife, one tennis racket, one frisbee ...
focuses on the flow of that one instrument.

I've also found a master of it in my region.
 
I went to a couple of Arnis classes before monetary difficulties (IE: I was broke) forced me to abandon it, and I really liked it. The thing that sort of sucked me in was that while you learn with a stick, the movements are applicable to any weapon, to include the bare hand, plus there were only 8 basic movements as I recall.

NI want to make it clear that I am in no way, shape or form knowledgeable about Arnis or any other martial art other than collegiate wrestling, but it seemed to me to be a pretty practical system. Some of you might read this and say "8 movements? Is this guy dumb?". Your answer is yes, in this particular area with my extremely limited experience, I am very dumb, so cut me some slack!
 
The thing that sort of sucked me in was that while you learn with a stick, the movements are applicable to any weapon, to include the bare hand, plus there were only 8 basic movements as I recall.
That's what got me in, also.

That, and the fact that it's done with sticks.
Being a mad drummer, that appealed.

Plus, knives like daggers are
pointy sharp steel sticks, so
it all just sort of works out.
 
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