Daggers, Boot Knives & SD Folders

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If you have a problem with small handles, you better handle a Kershaw MBK before you buy it. I like mine, but the handle is pretty narrow.
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P35, good point. Let me clarify.

It wasn't the narrowness of the Gerber that I didn't like. It was the length; it was just too short.

It had the same feeling to me as the stock grips on my airweight snub nose, those little two-finger grips that allow one to pocket carry, but at the expense of a good, firm grip that I want to control +p rnds. Since I don't pocket carry that gun (it's in an OWB), I replaced those stock grips with Hogue monogrips that allow a full grip.

That was that feeling I had with the Guardian: just not enough handle to hold onto.

I've been thinking about the narrowness of the Kershaw, and especially in light of Hso's point about grip shape (#71). The Kershaw appears to be just a bit too "rounded", but - and I'm going out on a limb here - I'm wondering if it could be modified by a craftsperson. I've been dreaming of all manner of ways to make it larger, more substantial. If I work up enough nerve, maybe I'll discuss them here later. :uhoh:

:rolleyes:
 
I'm now convinced "new and Improved" square handles was a marketing and design patent ploy.
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You'd be incorrect. The Applegate-Farbairne was designed before such issues were germane. Subsequent models might fit into the box, but that's doubtful as well since a round handle isn't patentable and there aren't any patent ploys out there using a traditional scale on tang design since it would constitute prior art and wouldn't receive a patent. Round handles would be cheaper to produce since they could be churned out like the S-F and could be put over a rat-tail tang and peen or thread locked cheaply. Scales may be less expensive to produce (if you're talking about S-F brass or bronze cast grips), but the S-F would be cheaper to attach. About a wash on cost of grip on the two approaches. About the only round handled modern boot knife or dagger is the Sykes-Fairbairn, the S-F "inspired" knives, and this Eikhorn.

The history of the A-F starts with the S-F and it's well known deficiencies, fragile tip, fragile blade, small grip, indexing the grip, soft tang, etc., but the S-F became iconic amongst small daggers. Col. Applegate and Leutenant-Col. Fairbairn developed their earliest design in 1943 as an outgrowth of the lessons learned on the S-F and it's use. Prototypes made for Col. Applegate at Camp Richie and then Randall in Orlando in 1944 started to refine the original idea for a stronger knife. Another prototype supposed to have been made by Al Buck in 1952 further refined the design. Col Applegate worked with Barry Wood in developing prototypes in the late '70s where different handle materials were tried and the design nearly reached it's final stage. Col Applegate first proposed having it made as a custom knife for sale in 1980 and T. J. Yancey subsequently made them in 154-CM. Bill Harsey took over making the custom knives in 1986 while the first mass-market production was by the Al Mar company in A6 steel in 1987. The A-F had it's own design flaw in having used a partial tang that didn't run the whole length of the handle and the ambitious feature of having the handle be removable so the user could move lead weights in the handle to "tune" the balance of the knife. AL Mar abandoned the synthetic "tunable" handle for permanently riveted laminated wood. Col Applegate was very opposed to the change in the handle, even though it brought an end to the breakage of the synthetic handle scales that had plagued the production model. Blackjack Knives took up production of the knife in 1984 two years after Al Mar's death. Blackjack used both 440A and A2 steel in the blades and discontinued the use of wood handles. The problem with breakage of the handles occurred with this version of the A-F and I remember Mike Stewart complaining about the Col. "insisting on those damn plastic handles". When Col. Applegate and Blackjack parted ways over royalty payments in 1996 the door opened for Gerber to produce the knife with a FRN handle material that wasn't subject to breakage. Boker got the design for the fixed blade in 1997 and currently makes the knife with FRN handle scales and a 440C blade. All that history on the evolution from the F-S to the A-F simply illustrates the very early, non-commercial, abandonment of the ribbed round handle and the rat-tail tang.
 
HSO,

How sure are you that the re-design was not able to fetch a royalty ( PATENT) if Applegate was collecting on payments form a different model in 1996. ( per the information you provide) ????

Marketing ( royalties /patents) was part of the game. And nothing wrong with that either.

My point is the original model was not patentable ( as you say as well) so if Applegate wanted ROYALTIES ( like he got from AL MAR, and I'm sure Boker) then a re-design would be needed.

I don't want you to waste your time trying to prove a negative...I just don't think that everything I read is true ( unless it came from the PTO ;)) and their has been substantial marketing since 1987 ( per your information) so many sources are suspect IMHO.



I have medium to small hands, and the round handle works wonders for me. Maybe with bigger hands it would be "too small". But then again a bigger handle would be easier to disarm from ME...average size of humans has increased in the last 100 years. The Eickhorn is not peened, uses a hefty pommel nut on a sturdy screw. The tip is not fragile on this model, of that I am sure...

In any case I am pretty sure the F-S was designed with a FOIL grip ( round yes! ;)) and vase like as an original design feature, not to speed production...

My PTO search skills led me to D399113 is the patent referenced to Applegate, but I could not open that patent. ( before 1975?)
 
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Irony

Izzy, you might want to contemplate the text you wrote in post #74 in contrast with what you wrote in post #75.

You might discover just a tiny bit of irony there.

 
Knives are designed all the time that royalties are paid by companies to the designer for and no patents are involved.

Jim Hammond, Darrell Ralph, Ed Haligan, Ken Onion and Blackie Collins and numerous others all have designs in current production by mass market manufacturers without having patents involved. Look at any of the "custom-collaborations" and you'll find the majority of them don't involve patents. Ken and Blackie have patents on knives as well. Where a patent is involved the designer makes more money, a lot more money, but the good companies pay royalties to good designers for good designs and the right to market on the designer's name whether a patent is involved or not.

The only knife patent that Col. Applegate received is D373,521 for the folding A-F. He does have that boat patent 3023331 from his days in Mexico, but no other patents that I'm aware of or that I could find. 1943 to his death and no patents in spite of being paid royalties for the A-F, the Smatchet and the folding A-Fs.

The D399113 patent you refer to is a 1998 patent and isn't assigned to Col. Applegate. The inventor is listed as Shiraz Balolia of Bellingham, Washington and the assignee is Gutman Cutler. Col. Applegate is listed, along with numerous others like Spyderco and Gerber, in the patents referenced section. The 373,521 patent on the A-F folder is what's being referenced.

I get a kick every time I remember him asking me, of all people, if the compact A-F folder would sell and his disbelief when I told him it would outsell the bigger knife because it could be carried by more folks with it's just shy of 4" blade. He gave one to me and autographed the box at the next Blade show when it was obvious I had guessed correctly and we had a good laugh about it. That was the last time I spoke with him. Wished I'd spent a lot more time talking with him.
 
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Okay, well I personally know of someone who was attacked by a mob and disarmed in the way I described.
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There may be a clue to this in your words, "by a mob." That would suggest to me that he was slashing and stabbing, but holding the knife out in front of him. Maybe brandishing it in some fashion. My remarks presumed a single engagement with a person attacking full-on. This is quite easy to verify yourself in a training setting.
 
To me, the iconic boot knives/daggers are the Gerber Mark I and the Guardian. The size, shape and construction are nearly perfect. Anything close to these "standards" is good, IMO. Regarding the purpose of such knives when you can have a backup gun instead, I offer the following. They are not instead of another gun, they are in addition to one. If you are down to your backup gun and you're out of ammo or have a malfunction, a sharp pointy knife can be handy. If you are on the ground because you are wounded or have a bad guy kneeling on your chest and your gun was knocked out of your hand, a sharp pointy knife in your boot or tucked away in some other handy place can be... handy. Your choice. Depends as always on your perception of the threat and how much time, money, and effort you want to expend to prepare for that threat.
 
Arfingreebly Wrote:
Izzy, you might want to contemplate the text you wrote in post #74 in contrast with what you wrote in post #75.

You might discover just a tiny bit of irony there.
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Main Entry: iro·ny
Pronunciation: \ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural iro·nies
Etymology: Latin ironia, from Greek eirōnia, from eirōn dissembler
Date: 1502

1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also Socratic irony
2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance
3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play —called also dramatic irony, tragic irony
synonyms see wit


Ok so inform me of the supposed Irony.

( IF you're referring to the tight grip of the round S-F, in post 74; vs. the ability to take two open hands and pry away a longer bladed knife esp. a single edge, in post 75...then I fail to see any irony)
 
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Shockwave wrote:

There may be a clue to this in your words, "by a mob.".....my remarks presumed a single engagement with a person attacking full-on. This is quite easy to verify yourself in a training setting.
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Quite possibly.

From what I was told by the individual in question, and backed up by the people who live there, he just drew it out in self defense and was jumped on by two individuals, one of whom used two open palms to wrestle the knife away from him.

The rest of the story is irrelevant, but I appreciate the fact that you have been gracious about that. The whole incident shook me into thinking differently about blades with large "flats" or long blades that are single edges in general.

Also keep in mind the assailants were agricultural workers who work with pointy rocks, thorns, and cement all day, so their hands /palms are thicker and more calloused than you and I...
 
HSO,

I'm impressed you knew the man. (Honest)

So if they don't use a design patent, on what do they collect royalties and protect their property? ( just the name, is it copyrighted or Trademarked???)

I'm sure if anybody could, you could clue me in on that.
 
Ironic

Ok so inform me of the supposed Irony.
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In your post #74, you forward an argument that it is possible to maintain a firm grip on a knife against substantial twisting force. In this case, the knife has a round grip.

In your post #75, you affirm that a large, strong man (with, presumably, a better than average grip) has a large knife wrested from his grasp . . . by a manually applied twisting force.

The juxtaposition is ironic.


Yes, it is possible to maintain a good grip -- against a strong twisting force -- on a knife with a round handle. Yes, it is possible to take a knife away from a large, strong man, using only the twisting force that can be applied by bare hands.


Perhaps I have failed to understand something, or perhaps my reading of what you wrote falls short of full comprehension.

As it stands, though, it seems that you have contradictory propositions.

 
Izzy77,

The practice for a good company, there are "bad" ones that use anyone's design without attribution or renumeration, is to work out a contract with a custom maker or designer to use a design of theirs. If they're using a design that they want to attribute for marketing purposes the contract will include using the design and the maker's name and likeness in marketing the mass-market version. If the maker/designer is just selling a design that they're not known for (Blackie Collins does this all the time) they'll just buy the design in some form (sometimes outright and at other times a license with time and use limitations) and make and market the product. Most makers/designers aren't patenting or trademarking their work. The manufacturers are working out specific contracts for specific designs with specific makers/designers.

Our own Fuad Acawi has a design that will be brought out by a major manufacturer. Fuad will keep making the custom versions of his knife and the manufacturer will produce a mass-market version.

As to knowing "famous" people in the knife world, I do. Some are acquaintances, some are buddies and some are good friends. Some makers that post here are good friends and they'll be internationally famous some day as their art and craftsmanship become wider recognized. Col. Applegate was an acquaintance that I would have liked to have had more time to get to know. It's amazing the people you get to meet in small communities. Kinda like here.
 
Arfingreebly Wrote:
In your post #74, you forward an argument that it is possible to maintain a firm grip on a knife against substantial twisting force. In this case, the knife has a round grip.

In your post #75, you affirm that a large, strong man (with, presumably, a better than average grip) has a large knife wrested from his grasp . . . by a manually applied twisting force.

The juxtaposition is ironic.


Yes, it is possible to maintain a good grip -- against a strong twisting force -- on a knife with a round handle. Yes, it is possible to take a knife away from a large, strong man, using only the twisting force that can be applied by bare hands.


Perhaps I have failed to understand something, or perhaps my reading of what you wrote falls short of full comprehension.

As it stands, though, it seems that you have contradictory propositions.
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No. In one case I was talking about large single edge blades. (Non-Retention by Leveraging force)

In the other case , ( Retention under twisting force) I was talking about Daggers, and short narrow single edge blades. The round handled knife is an good version of a S-F dagger.

Not irony by any definition.
 
I know I will probably be panned for this but I prefer a push dagger for a fighting knife. Yes, I know they aren't ideal for an experienced or trained knife fighter. My reasoning is that I have zero training/experience with knife fighting and I don't have the time or money to get any training. I know how to punch people, with the safe maker I from cold steel I think I would do about as good as I could in a knife fight if I ever had to get into one.

cs12bs.jpg

The blade is 4.5" long and once I've drawn it it will be very hard to take away from me. The steel is AUS8A, nothing to write home about but then again its a rare moment when you will have to sharpen this knife and its very sharp right out of the box. Even a slashing strike will make a nice long wound on whatever it hits.

Another push dagger option would be the benchmade 175cbk but the steel is still crappy 440c and the handle sucks. Price remains about the same as the Safe Maker I.
 
mgregg85 said:
The blade is 4.5" long and once I've drawn it it will be very hard to take away from me. The steel is AUS8A, nothing to write home about but then again its a rare moment when you will have to sharpen this knife and its very sharp right out of the box. Even a slashing strike will make a nice long wound on whatever it hits.

Another push dagger option would be the benchmade 175cbk but the steel is still crappy 440c and the handle sucks. Price remains about the same as the Safe Maker I.
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AUS8A is equivalent to 440B, which is actually a worse steel than 440C. 440C is a good stainless steel with good edge retention properties. It's not a super steel, and it's been around a long time, but the quality difference between properly heat-treated 440C and 440B or AUS8 is definitely there.
 
I'm glad the idea of push daggers is now part of the discussion.

I agree that legality is an issue that should be considered, but then we've already agreed that this entire thread requires that we pay attention to legality. We're exploring options here, not making any recommendations about what people should or should not buy or carry. And again, speaking only for myself, I'm also considering options that could be of value in a future time when, um, lawful order has broken down (but again, we're not going to discuss the specifics of those circumstances in this thread, says the OP).

But we can discuss the utility of push daggers, pros and cons, etc.

I've looked at the push daggers from Cold Steel (though not a real one, only on the I'net).

But the Kopromed name is new to me. I've got their pages open now, but I'm not finding that push knife. URL?
 
Push daggers are designed for stabbing, not slashing. Their "advantage" is that they are stealthy, easy to use (just punch) and secure in the grip, if properly designed.

Their disadvantages are that they don't slash or draw cut worth a fig and are almost always short (the latter isn't much of a fault since they're intended to be concealed last ditch knives which by their nature are small).

Since most makers aren't actually serious about them being used the portion that fits between the fingers is often too square and too large making them not only uncomfortable, but actually difficult to use.

I'm not a Cold Steel fan, but they make very practical push daggers with good ergonomics.
 
Well, shockwave, there are other problems too, but since the poster who asked about push daggers mentioned having no training, the other issues didn't matter for him, right?

A big problem is understanding what people mean by "fighting knife".

Combat knives are used by soldiers. They are tools that- under very rare circumstances may also be pressed into service for defense.
There are no knives especially useful for taking on someone else armed with a knife. If your opponent/attacker has a knife, you want something with reach, like a firearm or at least a stick...or rocks or anything else hurtful you can throw until you can escape or police arrive.

As far as the "ultimate knife fight", it's certainly not two idiots with a scarf in their teeth hacking at each other. An example of the "ultimate knife fight" is seen in the mediocre movie Soldier with Kurt Russell: a single, clean, powerful thrust to an armed enemy who is not aware, never aware.

I have heard at least one instructor say he didn't believe in teaching "knife fighting", only knife killing. Teaching two people to duel with knives is foolish and wasteful of time that could be better spent elsewhere.

John
 
JShirley, knowing the abuse I heap on my little folding pocket knife, I'm thinking a primary concern for a combat knife would be toughness, both of the edge, and of the entire knife. I mean if I use my folder for everything from cutting to a screwdriver, scraper, prybar, etc, and I'm just piddling around my normal life, I can only imagine what a knife gets used for in wartime.
 
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