Decide, les baer, wilson combat, ?
- Thread starter ericuda
- Start date
tark
Member
Why is it B.S.?
Seems to me that is exactly what you are getting. Pros and cons about a wide range of choices. Everyone thinks his choice is the best and everyone else's is inferior. Arguments are presented, pro and con, for many different brands. None of them are perfect. Your choice should be influenced by many different criteria: Price, reputation, wait time, customer service should something go wrong... are just a few.
Glad I wasted my time trying to honestly help someone spend their hard earned cash wisely.
I’m gone…
I'm not sure what you appear to be upset about. Both of those members are offering exactly what you are asking for...and are doing so from points of wide experience as opposed to narrow focus opinions
If you’re going to drop that much change on a 1911, I’d recommend you join a dedicated 1911 forum and do some research. Lots of pros and cons to every maker - and maybe some options that will scratch your itch for less than $4K. I personally prefer the 1911 Addicts forum - good people, lots of helpful advice, and after you’ve been a member long enough and can access the classifieds, some great deals to be found. There are other forum options - that’s just my favorite.
The 1911 world is a massive rabbit hole and it’s well worth taking some time to really get familiar with them before taking a high stakes plunge.
The 1911 world is a massive rabbit hole and it’s well worth taking some time to really get familiar with them before taking a high stakes plunge.
johnmcl
Member
Ericuda,
Allow me to give you a rather one sided perspective on your question. On background, I have shot Wilson 1911s much, but do not own one now.
I do own a Premier II and an Ultimate Tactical Carry (UTC), both in 45ACP. Both are Tark-engraved. The Premier is my target gun while the UTC is my defensive gun. I wanted a similar trigger experience with both guns. I got identical. Both guns came to me new, oily, in the cheapest cardboard box possible, and really tight. I'm no Superman, but both guns were rack-able.
2,000 rounds later through both, they are a joy to shoot. I define joy as the pistols being superbly reliable and more accurate than I. There's a photo attached from a recent range session. In slow fire mode, this target is repeatable all day long. With the Premier, I have made IDPA Expert quite a few times.
In short, these babies can shoot.
Neither gun are heaven issued. My biggest complaint is that a Kydex holster will peel the bluing off like a banana. One can see that in the photo.
There was a comment earlier about sub-optimal customer service. That is not my experience. I put a call into the Customer Service number, and Les himself returned the call. Not bad.
The bottom line is that you could do a lot worse and a lot more expensively than a LB.
Allow me to give you a rather one sided perspective on your question. On background, I have shot Wilson 1911s much, but do not own one now.
I do own a Premier II and an Ultimate Tactical Carry (UTC), both in 45ACP. Both are Tark-engraved. The Premier is my target gun while the UTC is my defensive gun. I wanted a similar trigger experience with both guns. I got identical. Both guns came to me new, oily, in the cheapest cardboard box possible, and really tight. I'm no Superman, but both guns were rack-able.
2,000 rounds later through both, they are a joy to shoot. I define joy as the pistols being superbly reliable and more accurate than I. There's a photo attached from a recent range session. In slow fire mode, this target is repeatable all day long. With the Premier, I have made IDPA Expert quite a few times.
In short, these babies can shoot.
Neither gun are heaven issued. My biggest complaint is that a Kydex holster will peel the bluing off like a banana. One can see that in the photo.
There was a comment earlier about sub-optimal customer service. That is not my experience. I put a call into the Customer Service number, and Les himself returned the call. Not bad.
The bottom line is that you could do a lot worse and a lot more expensively than a LB.
Attachments
I have an issue with any 1911 that requires X amount of ammo to be shot in order to break the pistol in. Some have put too much into thinking that a super tight slide to frame fit makes a 1911 more accurate. While slide to frame fit has some effect, the barrel to slide and barrel bushing fit is what really affects accuracy. I have proven this with the old battle rattle 1911's we were issued in the Army.
For the OP, do your homework and look at all the different brands. As mentioned they all have their pro's and con's. Go with the one that works best for you.
MarshallDodge
Member
My experience with Les Baer pistols is that they are built well with quality components, and they run.
I picked up my first Baer about 15 years ago. That choice was made because back then, Wilson was cutting corners on components by using MIM parts. I'm not going to get into the pros and cons of MIM but if I am going to pay premium prices, I want premium parts used in the build.
I won't get into the conversations that I have had with industry experts in the know, but Wilson seems a lot more about marketing than they do function.
I picked up my first Baer about 15 years ago. That choice was made because back then, Wilson was cutting corners on components by using MIM parts. I'm not going to get into the pros and cons of MIM but if I am going to pay premium prices, I want premium parts used in the build.
I won't get into the conversations that I have had with industry experts in the know, but Wilson seems a lot more about marketing than they do function.
Mark_Mark
Member
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- Jan 9, 2021
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my experience with Les Baer… none.. except I have handles a dozen different one at gun shops. Everything from used old guns, unfired old guns, new guns .
From tight as snot, were you have to pop the muzzle with your palm to unlock the gun to SMOOTH as silk 9mm!
I’ll eventually get one… but it’s definitely a try before you buy gun, in a good way. Some people like tight and new, some like already broken in!
I was very much in this school when I first became interested in higher grade 1911s, likely influenced by Bullseye shooters at the range I frequented....this was before the days of the internet.
More research lead me to discover that accuracy was more a function of the fit between the barrel and the slide...at least as long as the sights were mounted on the slide.
More research and speaking to folks who built higher end 1911s then taught me that ultimate tightness of the slide to the frame only had to exist when the pistol was in battery. That is why most high end 1911s have built-up rails at the end of their travel. Out of battery, the slide glides on the rails for increased reliability and reduced wear. It's a lot more work to produce, so you won't see it in lessor builds...what you'll see is the tight fitting of the slide to the rails which most folks think reflects higher quality work
actionexpress
Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2023
- Messages
- 102
I vote Nighthawk. I had one a while back, a Talon commander I'd purchased used and it seemed every bit as good as the Wilsons, Baers. Back then I didn't think it was as popular, I got it quite reasonably. Seemed a little subtle compared to the other stuff, and was a wonderful shooter. I don't really shoot 1911s anymore, fell into the 2011 trap but the Nighthawk 1911s and double stacks still draw my attention. We were admiring a new TRS that was optic ready, and I could barely see the line between the sight plate and where it met the slide. Just beautifully made. Just my $0.02, but I kinda want one again..haha
I was the battalion machinist and I worked with all of the company armorers to go through the 1911A1's we had to hand pick the best for our shooting teams. All of the 1911s were your typical rattle battle pistols with loose fitting slides. But the ones with a good barrel to slide fit and good bushing fit were very accurate even with the loose slides. This was right before we had to turn in the 1911s for the M9 in late 1992/early 1993 while I was stationed in Germany.
tark
Member
Exactly right. I have seen guns with looseness in the F to S fit that were very accurate. Barrel lockup is the key.
tark
Member
Here's a dirty little secret: My avatar has a bit of side to side play in the slide and the tiniest but of up and down play as well. This is with the bare slide on the frame. Put the barrel and bushing back in the slide and the thing locks up like a bank vault. The play is gone. Les knew that most of these high end guns wouldn't be shot very much anyway. I have only shot this gun seven times, just to say I DID shoot it. The gun writer ( Roy Huntington, I think it was ) that Les sent it to put 200 rounds through it. He said it was deadly accurate.
Lo-Profile
Member
Own 2 Wilson Combat guns.
Both are great shooting pistols, wouldn't hesitate to buy another.
Both are great shooting pistols, wouldn't hesitate to buy another.
I bought a Les Baer PMII with custom features about 10 years ago. Never a complaint or a moment's regret. My brother bought a Dan Wesson some years back. He has not regrets either. Wilson's are fantastic also. It is more about what style speaks to you most. Each brand has its own aura so to speak. Enjoy your decision making process!
My bad if I took it wrong, just seemed like was getting derailed.
I have made up my mind. I'd like to see tarks checkering as seems like it is some of the best in the business according to folks here. Lots of good opinions and the pii was my first choice but the break in I guess is a turnoff. Seems like all have good and bad. Mag won't lock back on some, extractor breaks at 2,000 rounds, etc etc and yes i have done countless hours of research. Seems odd complaints on higher end pistols are more prevalent than run of mill 1911's which seems magnified as they do not sell as many so to me complaints are more common. My lowly Springfield a1 has worked flawlessly with none of those issues.
I have made up my mind. I'd like to see tarks checkering as seems like it is some of the best in the business according to folks here. Lots of good opinions and the pii was my first choice but the break in I guess is a turnoff. Seems like all have good and bad. Mag won't lock back on some, extractor breaks at 2,000 rounds, etc etc and yes i have done countless hours of research. Seems odd complaints on higher end pistols are more prevalent than run of mill 1911's which seems magnified as they do not sell as many so to me complaints are more common. My lowly Springfield a1 has worked flawlessly with none of those issues.
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It's because folks who spend more expect fewer issues. Sometimes these complaints are because of unrealistic expectations. In my opinion, a correctly built 1911 starts at something between $2500-3000...like a Springfield Professional. Ones costing less means that corners have been cut. Ones costing more usually indicates that the manufacturer is trading on name recognition or there are added custom touches.
With the Professional as a baseline, any 1911 that cost more but doesn't offer the same level of workmanship or finish is of lessor value
Mark_Mark
Member
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- Jan 9, 2021
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- 18,066
also, spending big money doesn’t make you a better shooter. Slowing down, going back to the fundamentals will!!!
I when back to Double Action revolvers. That’s what made me a better shooter in all handgun platforms
JTQ
Member
I believe this is correct. You also see this regarding Dan Wesson's line-up of 1911's.
Contemporary shooters, with all the polymer framed striker guns on the market, have come to think of handguns as a $500 commodity. Spending multiple times that amount on a handgun does seem to bring unrealistic expectations.
JTQ
Member
I'm pretty sure the Les Baer break-in period is not to get the gun to work, but rather to make sure the gun is working just as well at 50,000 rounds as it does at round 50.
My experience on forums is that the guys that buy a Les Baer 1911 because they want a Les Baer 1911, with all the good and also the little "oddities" that come with a Les Baer are almost always enthusiastically pleased with their purchase.
On the other hand, those that buy a Les Baer 1911, but really wanted a Wilson/Brown/Nighthawk, but just couldn't justify the price of those other makers guns, are usually less pleased.
The Les Baer 1911 is different than the competition. If that's what you want, there is no replacement. If you really want something else, you may not appreciate those differences.
This has been my observation also. When you get much above the mid-level 1911s, you really should figure out what you want and be willing to pay the price for those features/workmanship.
Folks often get hung up on a "brand name." You really need to look beyond that to look for what functionality you really desire. For most folks, those needs are easily met by the Dan Wesson lineup.
My personal feeling is that if a Dan Wesson doesn't offer what I want, I'd be inclined to save up for a Stan Chen or Ned Christensen...both of whom are really nice people too; even when they knew I wasn't going to make a purchase
MarshallDodge
Member
Dan Wesson's quality has really improved over the years, and are a solid bang for the buck.
I also agree about Stan and Ned. My limited interaction with them has been solid.
tark
Member
Yeah...Les' guns have the reputation of bluing that isn't up to snuff. I have no idea why. He used to use Du-lite bluing salts when I worked there, maybe that had something to do with it. And remember what I posted earlier,: If requested Les will make the gun less tight.
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rabid wombat
Member
I would equate this to a couple of analogies….mutt vs pedigree or quarterhorse vs thoroughbred…. Either is a dog or horse, but what are you expecting it to do?
I have no dog in this fight (though I want ALL of them!). My ‘big dollar’ 1911 was a base series 80 Colt reworked by EGW (I also have some National Match and others reworked by Clark). The EWG started with a conversation… some back and forth... Some shooting, a refinish… I have my pistol. I do not remember the total spent, but not out of line for the lower end of this conversation.
Echoing MANY above, narrow down what is important to you - buy it, and do not look back. You will have a great pistol, regardless….