Defensive Shotgun training - OUCH!

[silverlance]

How do you guys who shoot shotguns a lot reload your guns? Or, more accurately, how do you repair your thumbs?

Yesterday I shot off about 80 rounds in self-training out of an M1S90. 40 bird, 30 #4, 10 slug. my shoulder hurt like heck and i stumbled around recoil-silly for an hour or two afterward. 80 rounds is a lot when you shoot it all within an hour or so.

anyway, my thumb is FUBAR'ed. my nail is all buggered up from slamming into the receiver, and the flesh is all brusied from being pinched by the loading ramp.

how do you guys do this? is it better to leave a bit of nail, or cut it all off? do you wear a thimble? oh if only the benelli could top load with stripper clips....

 

[ZeSpectre]

I've never done serious defensive shotgun training but I'd suppose (in order)...

1) Use light trap loads for practice
2) Get a Maverick 88 (no loading ramp )

Sounds painful but sounds like you had fun overall!

 

[GTSteve03]

If you're going to be shooting a long session, I don't see any reason not to wear a recoil pad on your shoulder to help lessen the impact. No reason to beat yourself up, you're not going to fire that many rounds in a real encounter so I don't see it hurting your training.

Maybe you could look into taping up your thumb before training or maybe wear a set of neoprene gloves? They're thin enough to not get in the way too bad and would protect your thumb and fingers from getting pinched or bashed on something.

 

[USMC Tanker]

Try to get a good pair of shooting gloves.

You don't have to go spend $80 on some uber-tactical gloves, there are some simple solutions out there.

Mechanix gloves are a good choice. Nomex flight gloves work well, they protect your hands from heat/flash but are thin enough to still offer adequate dexterity.

My favorite shooting gloves at the moment are Nomex flight gloves manufactured by Hatch. They're coyote brown, and I roll down the cuffs to my wrists so they don't cover half my forearms. I'm might give Mechanix gloves a shot soon.

 

[sm]

Adding to above

Gun fit assists, correct form, recoil pad tweaks , as does keeping thumb on same side of trigger (not over the back of receiver).

First Aid Gauze or Nylon hose , is another trick, and not just for shotguns, any firearm.
One may have a gun that "seems" smooth, no rough edges, corners and all, until they have to shoot it a lot, and under pressure.
Then all the little sharp edges, corners and such, make themselves known.

One can "look", and one can run hands over a gun, even with eyes closed, and miss areas.

Just run the gauge, or hose over the gun lightly, from all directions and pay attention to any "snags" and "hang ups".

Smooth accordingly.

This includes parts removed from gun and finding edges in and on loading areas and all too.

 

[col_tapiocca]

Do you shoot 3" Magnum shot for Defensive shotgun training?
Maybe you not shoulder your shotgun properly...
I shoot approx. 200 round (80 bird shot, 120 slug) at last Saturday's IPSC shotgun training not that dire.

 

[foghornl]

Previous posters have a lot of good info about smoothing things out. "SM" has the right idea about using gauze to find hidden "pointy things with sharp teeth" on any gun.

I have 2 names to help with the kick..

LimbSaver
Kick-Eeze

(actually, most after-market recoil pads I use are the less expensive ones..Butler Creek, Uncle Mikes, etc. But get what you can to soak up some of the 'thump' on your end of the stock.) "Fit" is a HUGE factor. I feel less recoil from my Maverick that my brother's 870 with the same loads...The Maverick "Fits" me better. Brother says his 870 kicks him less than my Maverick.

 

[TEXASTACTICAL]

The infamous "Benelli Thumb" strikes again. The Benellis lifter design grabs more than a few peoples thumbs, mine included. I installed an extended lifter from
C-Rum. Now I can load strong hand, weakhand, upside down or on the shoulder and no get "bitten".

 

[CWL]

Cloth medical tape on sore areas before they get sore. Replace as necessary.

Also sounds like you aren't shouldering the shotgun properly. If not, then you just need to spread out your training until you get more accustomed to a SG's recoil. Reduced recoil ammo in buck & slug may do the trick (they work fine on my Beretta semi).

Read about your potential problem posted in S&T, I'd recommend that you switch to reduced recoil SD ammo like the Federal stuff. Stick with RR 00 and slug and stop using bird & #4. You need to hit BGs with enough lead to stop them. You certainly don't want to let multiple BGs get close enough to you for #4 to pattern well -and birdshot is definitely not good for SD purposes in any circumstance IMO. You need to maintain distance while still delivering a world of hurt on the BGs.

 

[TEXASTACTICAL]

What method are you using to load, silverlance?

 

[Robert Hairless]

TexasTactical, I've been eyeing the C-Rum lifter. Did you install it yourself and, if so, what was involved?

 

[TEXASTACTICAL]

It wasn't hard at all. I just removed the trigger group and seperated the lifter from the TG and installed the new one. The hardest part was replacing the spring that controls the lifter. I think my GF lent me one of her hands.

I know I did look everything over very carefully a few times before I disassembled it.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I used to watch a lot of guys go through some hig round count training at Ft. Bragg from time to time. Bandaids in advance, or tape over moleskin, were real popular items to prevent blisters as well as wear and tear from 'gun bites.'

I've never run a Benelli in a long session, so I never got chewed on by one like that. Never had that kind of problem with any of my 870s, if there were any 'teeth' anywhere on one of them I smoothed them up while working on the gun.

Proper gun fit is critical with a shotgun, no matter what you're doing with it (wingshooting, small game hunting, clay games or defensive work) a shotgun has to fit reasonably well. Gun fit should always be a priority- commercial makers try for a 'one size fits all' approach to gun fit. sometimes the averages work and sometimes they don't. If the average gun doesn't fit, you have to adjust it to make it fit properly.

A premium recoil pad is another must-have IMHO. Remington's R3, the Limbsaver, KickEez, Pachmeyer Decelerator etc. are well worth the $20-30 they cost. But even a good pad won't make up for bad form in mounting the gun- if you're putting the butt in the wrong place, it's gonna hurt eventually.

I shot Louis Awerbuck's Stage I Shotgun class a couple years ago. The ammo list for that class calls for 400 Birdshot, 50 Buckshot and 70 Slugs, expended over three days of training. I got through it with no real physical damage beyond a couple of hangnails, due to some health problems I am sorta on my last legs as far as serious physical stuff goes. Having a de-fanged gun, a good recoil pad and good habits made a lot of difference.

lpl/nc

 

[silverlance]

thanks for the replies.
in terms of shoulder recoil, i can handle it easily since i learned how to handle that type of recoil from shooting a lot of M39 and M91/30 Mosin-Nagant with them recoil-reducing steel buttplates.

it's the cheek bashing.. more accurately right zygomatic arch bashing that got me holding my head and going "oh my poor aching noggin" after all those shots. i guess a kick eeze will help. the PG stock is way better than the original in that the original non-pg stock's comb tapers into a thin blade that really FUBARS your face up during recoil. but it is still very painful. yes, i think i will get a kick eeze and stick it where my cheek goes.

as for why im shooting birdshot, well, it's cheap and since i'm practicing at in-house range (7-15 yards) birdshot will allow me to see where my shot is equally well. by the way, this is express birdshot... some really hurtful stuff. i woudln't use it for HD, but training with it is much more affordable than the 45 cents a shot low recoil tactical ammo i use for in-house.

 

[Geno]

Look into the Remington 870 Tactical shotgun. They manufacture it in 12 & 20 gauge. The stock has a built-in recoil absorption, and a Limbsaver recoil pad. It is extraordinarily soft and forgiving on the shoulder...I should know, I have a multi-level fuse, and an electronic stimulator inside of my spine. No discomfort whatsoever.

Re: reloading, I reload two shells per hand at a time...it reduces movement...cuts reloads about 1/3 of time...same process for reloading pistol magazines...2 at a time. For the fingers, during practice, use gloves. In real life you may not have the luxury of putting them on. BTW, I shoot exclsuively 2 3/4" shells...never 3" or 3.5" shells. The 2 3/4 is sufficient and one allows 1 more round than 3". The Tactical, probably knew this, is the top one.

View attachment 317639

 

[esheato]

Does anyone have the link for the CRum lifter? I'm interested as my thumb gets bit by my Benelli also.

Thanks,

Ed

 

[sm]

it's the cheek bashing.. more accurately right zygomatic arch bashing that got me holding my head and going "oh my poor aching noggin" after all those shots.

It is the gun fit.
Followed by the form.
Fit will assist with form, if that makes any sense.

[Bad fit, means compensating, which means the form is altered and the Domino Theory kicks in...everything starts falling down.]

Human computer is programmed it sounds - "When this gun is mounted to me, and that trigger is slapped, I am going to get whacked"

Recoil pad will NOT help, until the fit is corrected.

 

[00-Guy]

C Rum Website

http://www.c-rums.com/Shotgun.html

enjoy.

 

[Mannlicher]

Thankfully, if you ever have to use your shotgun in a self defense mode, you probably wont' need more than the rounds in the gun.

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

Have you tried reduced recoil loads? I've also heard good things about Limsaver recoil pads...

http://www.simsvibrationlab.com/Products/Firearms/Speed_Mount_Recoil_Pad.aspx

 

[Correia]

Yesterday I shot off about 80 rounds in self-training out of an M1S90.

Start shooting 3gun. 80 rounds is three shotgun stages.

When I was learning to speedload a tube fed shotgun (4 rounds at a time), I got out dummy rounds, pulled the end cap and recoil spring out so the rounds would slide right through and fall out the end, and just practiced loading, over and over again.

I load with my weak hand. At night when I would relax in front of the TV, out came the shotgun and the dummy shells, and then I would just start thumbing them in. So I would sit there for an hour, loading over and over, then refill my bandoleer and carriers, and do it again. I've probably practiced speed loading 10,000 rounds through an 870.

Then when that was automatic, the mag spring went back in, because it is harder with the added pressure.

My thumbs got cut. But that was good. It taught me where to take a small file and break the edge so it was smooth.

I got down to a consistent sub 2 second load for 4 shells.

Then I switched to a mag fed Saiga.

 

[Paradiddle]

You can always get a shotgun with no feed ramp - like a Ithaca 37, Mossberg, Browning BPS, High Standard Flite King, etc.

Jeff

 

[swatmedic]

I used a Benelli m1s90 for a 2 day defensive shotgun class at Sig Academy. On TD2 we fired 100 rounds of slugs, I used a pair of mechanics gloves from home depot. I finished the class with no problems to my hands.

 

[McKnife]

and the flesh is all brusied from being pinched by the loading ramp.

One solution: Mossberg

 

[MCgunner]

Mossberg, Ithaca, or Browning BPS all lack a gate/elevator in the way of the magazine and that's why I like 'em. Now, I've never done anything tacticool with a shotgun, but out duck hunting when finger tips are wet and cold, that danged shell elevator HURTS!!!!! Even neoprene gloves will get caught in it, too. When hunting on a cold day, I'm wearing bulky gloves, not mechanic's gloves.

Of course, you could shoot a double barrel, no loading gates there. But, you gotta be tacticool in those classes, I guess. All I'd need for a class is a bed and a target 10 feet away so I could practice grabbin' the gun, sitting up in the bed, and blasting the target. That's all I keep a shotgun in the bedroom/saferoom for. I don't plan to go to combat anytime soon seein's I'm 55 years old next month and a long way from being agile on my feet anymore.