Department store security authority

[CannibalCrowley]

I don't shoplift so there's no reason for me to stop for a "loss prevention agent". I don't need my receipt checked and if the alarm goes off it's due to the incompetence of an employee. I just keep walking no matter what. If someone feels the need to detain me, then he can do so and I'll likely laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[Moondoggie]

Good point, Mcavada. I hadn't looked at it that way.

I'll usually let the person at Sam's make their mark on my receipt as I push my cart by them since it's not too invasive...they're just doing a quick scan of # of items...but wait in line to leave; not gonna happen. I've walked out of different Sam's several times when there were folks in line and just ignored the clerk at the door. Couple of times I've said something like "I'm not waiting around for you to sign my hall-pass so I can leave, and YOU FOLKS are idiots for standing in line and taking this". Guess I'm a bad person.

They're gonna let me back in..."they" want my $!

 

[Daemon688]

Since asking for receipts is too invasive, is that why companies like Walmart forcing all their suppliers to implant RFID's in all their products?

 

[GhostRider-Nine]

You can't be searched by other than a sworn LEO, and then only if you're under arrest.

You don't have to be under arrest for a LEO to frisk you. "Terry" has been extended to you and your "grabable area." Just about the only thing they can't do (or at least there not supposed to) is search your locked trunk, or any locked cases. And you better have your papers in order.

 

[Moondoggie]

My understanding is that the RIFD's are supposed to replace the bar code/UPC's. The next step in vertical computerization. Loss prevention is just one of the factors. Manual inventories will be a thing of the past. The RIFD's won't require as much manual manipulation by checkers as the UPC scanners to "see" the bar code. Actually, the goal is to eliminate "checker/clerk" personnel almost entirely...everybody will self-checkout. Phenomonal cost saving for retailers. Better for all of our mutual funds.

The RIFD concept will also effect all aspects of product control from mfg to transport to dist ctr to point of sale. Also allows "Big Brothers" in the ivory towers of marketing to capture data much more efficiently.

That chip implanted in the back of your hand with ALL of your info on it is coming!

 

[SMMAssociates]

Daemon:

Since asking for receipts is too invasive, is that why companies like Walmart forcing all their suppliers to implant RFID's in all their products?

There appears to be no provision to deactivate those implants - at least none that I've heard of. They would be useful while checking reciepts at the door, but it's primarily a way to check in merchandise, and then check it out when sold.

Bar codes do essentially the same job - this is really a non-contact/no-visibility version of the bar code.

The folks who are concerned about privacy feel that these implants can be read at fairly long distances (like somebody driving down their street and learning what brand of toothpaste they're using). Or, you could be scanned unobtrusively to see what brand of underwear you're wearing, and have that recorded, somehow - perhaps to direct you to the shelves selling another brand.

Is this an invasion of privacy? Yeah - I think so, but the grocery stores already "profile" people who use their "discount cards", and it'd be easy for the average Best Buy (for example) to record what you bought there.

Bringing that data together (I.e., combining what you by at WalMart with what you buy at Best Buy and Sears, etc.) is what bothers me.

Guess the good news is that it'll be used to target advertising, IMHO, rather than anything more nefarious.

I hope....


(Besides my rent-a-cop experience, I'm a Computer Consultant. One of my specialties is inventory control for small businesses - bar code printers & readers.)

 

[Art Eatman]

I don't get all knotted up about being checked for my receipt, if a buzzer sounds off.

You see, I remember the days before everything was individually wrapped in cardboard and plastic. Tools or toys, like items were in bins along a display counter. You just reached in, grabbed what you wanted from some dozens of them, and then went to the checkout counter.

The advent of large-scale shoplifting put all that to a screeching halt. Stores couldn't afford the losses. As small items with higher value, like cassette tapes, became popular among the younger or the poorer, the shoplifting problems got worse.

So when the purely innocent YOU gets challenged by a doorway checkout type, just remember Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and he is us." Your neighbor or your neighbor's kid. Maybe (perish the thought) a relative of yours. Regardless, the public itself, as usual, has brought its problems upon itself.

And an unintended consequence of shoplifting: All that anti-theft packaging material is a major item in landfills...

Art

 

[SMMAssociates]

Art:

And an unintended consequence of shoplifting: All that anti-theft packaging material is a major item in landfills...

Ain't that the truth....

I really get frosted when I buy something I want to unpack in the car - a flashlight, for example, for the glove box - and find that I need a table saw to get it out of the package....

I have visions of buying something in an airport that I need "now" - a new earset for a "walkman", perhaps - and find out that I can't open it 'cause guess who's pen knife is in checked baggage.... :banghead:

As to the rest of your post, agreed.... I try to visit these stores in off-peak times. Finding a salesperson can get interesting, but getting out quickly isn't a problem. I've never run into an exit wait of more than a minute unless there was a problem with somebody else. But it's early today....

 

[Azrael256]

the manager explained that they didn't want me to actually catch anybody unless it was absolutely necessary. They wanted the visibility.

That sounds about like the giant Sveedish dude we had at Best Buy. It was like having a bouncer. Real nice guy who told the worst jokes. He said that his instructions were to never, ever touch a potential shoplifter. He was to stand in front of the door until the police arrived, and only if we had the guy on tape or if a cashier had caught him (the common practice is to buy a CD case, and help yourself to a few CD's stuffed inside it. Cashiers know the difference in weight.). Several times he let them run out of the store without giving chase. Most people who pull the CD thing pay with plastic or checks that are not stolen. Go figure.

We were always instructed that we should be honey-dripping sweet to anyone we thought was a potential shoplifter. Four or five salespeople walking up in the span of three minutes asking if they need any help stops most theft.

I did have a guy at an electronics store accost me at the door. I didn't want to wait in line while he checked ten other receipts, so I just walked on by. He chased me down and grabbed my shoulder. The moonlighting policeman followed him and informed him that touching me was a REALLY dumb idea as I walked out the door. If I were trying to run out with a laptop stolen out of a display case, ok, but not waiting to have my receipt checked does not give him cause to assault me.

 

[TinCup]

When the door guy at WallMart asks to see my reciept I just laugh at him and walk right on out.

 

[TallPine]

Four or five salespeople walking up in the span of three minutes asking if they need any help stops most theft.

This is the thing that I can't understand ....

If they would put half as much effort into customer service as they do harrassing people at the door, they would reduce theft AND increase sales. I have been in Wal-mart trying to buy large expensive items and nobody there could find time to help me get them up to the checkout. I almost just walked out that day, like my $500 ain't good enough . I go to town maybe every other month, and when I do I usually buy a lot of stuff - or would except for lack of service, sometimes I just forget it and go home and do without.

The other stores (that is, NOT walmart) are just about as bad anymore

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Man, a lot of paranoid folks around here…

I leave Wal-Mart after purchasing something from the sporting goods counter or electronics area, even if it’s in a bag if there is a person at the door I usually walk to them asking if they need to check my bag.

I’ve never had one tell me yes I do need to check your bag, most say no and smile.

If the alarm went off I’d just stop turn around and walk to the nearest uniformed employee I saw.

Why create a confrontation when 30 seconds of your time will set everything straight and let them know you did not steal anything.

They most likely will not search you if you cooperate as I describe above and have not stolen anything that you are aware of. If they insist and you want it done right cause you are carrying tell them they cannot touch you, you want them to call a LEO then you will let him/her search you.

That’s what I’d do…

Of course the first thing I’ll be telling the cop is I’m a brother officer here is my badge/ID, I did not steal anything, you can do a full pat down and I am armed.

 

[R.H. Lee]

You don't have to be under arrest for a LEO to frisk you. "Terry" has been extended to you and your "grabable area."

You must have "reasonable suspicion" that I have committed a crime, or am about to commit a crime. It you do a Terry stop or frisk on me, and I later file suit and request discovery, interrogatories, etc., you'd better be able to back it up. Anecdotal 'evidence' won't do.

 

[DRZinn]

if they wanted to call the police I'd wait for them, but if not, I'd be leaving. No searches, no going to the back room, no discussions, nothing.

My strategy precisely. I paid, I'm leaving. Deal with it. Don't like it, call the cops.

in California any person can effect a private person arrest via CA Penal code 837 for an offense committed or attempted in their presence.

But no letting them see my receipt is not an offense. They may suspect that I'm stealing it, but they can't detain me because they suspect something. See above.

If you carry a weapon you will be held to a higher standard.

Why? Either a response is justified or it isn't. The fact that I have a gun on my hip makes absolutely no difference. The gun only makes a difference if I use it. BTW, I'm arguing morals, not the law.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

DocZinn,

That’s fine in Kali and a good example, for Kali but simply stating that…

They may suspect that I'm stealing it, but they can't detain me because they suspect something. See above.

Works in Kali, but what about my state of GA?

It won’t fly here; a store loss prevention officer can detain you based simply on a suspicion the bar for a citizens arrest is very low in GA and if you resist the can use force to effect the arrest/detention just like a LEO.

I worked a call at a Wal-Mart ironically on the south side of Atlanta where a guy ran from two LPO’s into the McDonalds inside the store, they cornered him told him he was under arrest for shoplifting and he was not going to leave the property the cops were on the way, he used a mouthful of colorful language and stated he was walking out the store and if anyone touched him he would hit them, well he did and they did and he lost badly.

Court upheld the shoplifting charge and allowed the LPO’s to charge him with two counts of battery and one count of unlawful flight while committing a crime.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

They most likely will not search you if you cooperate as I describe above and have not stolen anything that you are aware of.

They likely won't search you if you just walk on by either.

If they insist and you want it done right cause you are carrying tell them they cannot touch you, you want them to call a LEO then you will let him/her search you.

Nope, I don't have the time to wait around for the police to show up. If they show up before I leave I'd talk with them and that's it. Other than that I'm leaving, if the store employees want to detain me they can do so if they wish to face the legal repercussions.

Why create a confrontation when 30 seconds of your time will set everything straight and let them know you did not steal anything.

No, we do them a favor by purchasing something from their store. They create the confrontation when they treat all their customers as thieves.

 

[Norton]

AFAIK....regarding the receipt checker thing....you are under no legal obligation to wait for those people to check your receipt. This might be the only useful thing I've ever learned from those news shows like 20/20 or 60 minutes. They have no probable cause......

 

[SUE ROVR]

The best advice I can give is to consent to NOTHING.

Loss guy at door at Wal-mart: "Hey, can I see your reciept"

ME (In LOUD voice): "Am I under arrest, are you detaining ME?"

Loss guy: No, I ah . . .

ME: Then you cannot see my reciept. Muttering . . . while I leave.

Do not consent to any detainment. Tell them you want to leave, make them make it clear they are detaining you against your will. If they insist on detaining you and you did not steal anything then you are in for at least 10k in a settlement from what I have seen.

DO NOT go into the back room, ever (they could plant stuff, fabricate evidence, and lie even if you did not take anything). Wait up front until the cops come in view of others.

As always, call an attorney before making any statement or saying anything to anyone.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

All this chest thumping is absolute idiocy if all of you want to risk a fight over the fact that you have done nothing then so be it you can sue Wal-Mart from the comfort of your wheel chair because the LPO broke your back or you were resisting when the cops arrived and the cop beat the brakes off you.

A lot of folks here post a lot of stuff about the law; they claim to know a lot they want to know a lot.

But the simple fact is in my state of GA you do what you are suggesting you would do and you will be the one going to jail.

Especially when it come to pass that you in fact did not steal anything but instead of acting like a sane, normal human being you decided to nut up and cause a scene creating a problem, yes that is exactly how the courts here in GA would see it, how do I know this???

Because I am a cop, I see it everyday.

Judges abhor stupidity almost as much as the abhor criminals, especially when the stupidity of one person places the other party in a situation where they have to use force, any force to effect a arrest or detention.

Just like a cop shooting an unarmed man because he jumps out of a car with a coat over his hand pointing it like he has a gun.

Foolish!

 

[SUE ROVR]

"Why create a confrontation when 30 seconds of your time will set everything straight and let them know you did not steal anything."

WHY?

Because by being detained they are at least implying you did something wrong. Also, it is their incompetence that is causing the issue, nothing I did.

If one of them ever touched me (like the gentleman whose shoulder was grabbed) they could facing a criminal battery charge as well as civil liability.

If they screw up, I will sue, and I will win. I would never willingly consent to any impediment to my free movement with my purchased goods.

 

[DRZinn]

It won’t fly here; a store loss prevention officer can detain you based simply on a suspicion the bar for a citizens arrest is very low in GA and if you resist the can use force to effect the arrest/detention just like a LEO.

But they better be damn sure I stole something. Using force on me when I have not stolen anything is assault, and will be treated as such. No chest-thumping here, just refuse to be treated like a criminal when I'm not. The individual in your example did steal something, so obviously he had no leg to stand on to resist.

instead of acting like a sane, normal human being you decided to nut up and cause a scene creating a problem,

I'm not going to cause a scene. I'm going to pay for the products I have decided to buy, and then, transaction complete, I'm going to walk out of the store with my property. If they cause a scene, so be it. You want to detain me, you better be right.

 

[P95Carry]

First few times I was carrying, I always felt awkward entering and leaving as I went past the detector panels!! Almost waiting to be ''found out'' LOL ... Haha - such nievity at my age!

 

[Art Eatman]

I've never seen a Wally-guy bother anybody; that blue bag is a good indicator that the contents have been paid for.

When I buy an auto battery and pay for it at the back of the store, and head out the front door with the battery in the cart, it's zero problem whatsoever to wave the receipt at the Wally-guy.

Whatever the store, I'm just not bothered by a courteous request to see a receipt. It never has happened, but I don't see any reason not to be polite if it does.

Come to think of it, though, I've never been particularly hassled by anybody outside of minor-level governmental bureaucrats. Is there a profile for "honest and friendly"?

, Art

 

[Edmond]

Geez, you guys are tough!

I just flash my receipt and that's it. They're just trying to do their job.

"I didn't steal anything so I'm not going to show them my receipt." Would someone who stole something admit to it? I don't work in security or in retail but I can understand where they are coming from.

 

[Zach S]

Why create a confrontation when 30 seconds of your time will set everything straight and let them know you did not steal anything.

Why use the reciept as a checklist for items purchased by someone who hasnt set the alarm off?

You're a LEO, how often do you stop a car that is, as far as you can tell, perfectly legal?