Department store security authority

[ctdonath]

You're a LEO, how often do you stop a car that is, as far as you can tell, perfectly legal?

When it looks like the LEO's, every time. Especially if the annoyed SO has been threatening to sell it.

The door checkers, as annoying as they are, just make sure that everything has been paid for and taken - no more, no less. Most likely they have NOT "been watching you the whole time from checkout to door". Everyone may be on camera, but it's a lot easier to nab a shoplifter (being an obnoxious number thereof) on the premises than try to find them after reviewing videotapes.

With the proliferation of "self-scheckout" lines, the door checker becomes far more vital as even "good" people become tempted to not-quite-scan everything.

I'll submit to the door checker most of the time to keep peace. I understand why they're there (though it bugs me as much as anyone). If too much of a delay I may not comply, having already paid, but a few seconds delay does keep prices down. In December, BJ's warehouse store had bouncers at the door - if you did try to bypass the checker, you would obviously be bodily retained.

Ultimately, it's private property. If you don't like their process, don't go.

Airports on the other hand...but that's another thread.

 

[R.H. Lee]

so he lied, and i told him since he had no authority over me, he could take a long walk. i told him to tell the police i went 'thattaway'.

Headline: "Urban Savage Taunts Security Guard, Escapes in Broad Daylight"

 

[Sean85746]

Ask nicely...then maybe.

Ok, I was a deputy for 2 years before crossing over to the dark side and joining the DEA. I had worked a joint task force, and was recruited by that agency. I served for 12 years before getting hurt in Panama, and retiring. That being said...

I went to a Best Buy in Tucson, AZ in 1997 to buy the new Johnny Cash CD box set. Unless I am in a gun shop, sporting goods store, or Cabelas, I HATE shopping. I knew the item I wanted, went straight to the department in which it would be found, and went straight to the checkout. I did not linger.

I paid cash for my purchase, and walked toward the exit door. IN MY HAND was the receipt for my purchase.

I was wearing jeans, a polo shirt, and a light cotton vest that covered my Glock. My badge was clipped to my belt, just to the right of my belt buckle. In my humble opinion, I did not fit the profile of a desperate criminal mastermind in charge of a gang of serial shoplifters.

As I got to within 10 feet of the door, a yellow-shirted "security specialist" said in a loud rude voice: "Open your bag!!"

At first, I KNEW he wasn't addressing me. I looked around for a subject. Not seeing one, I moved on.

Now, I have a 6' crew cut standing in front of me, saying in a louder, more rude voice: "Open the bag NOW!"

He did not say: "Sir, we check all bags leaving our store, may I look inside?"
He did not say: "May I check your receipt sir?"
He did not say anything in a manner consistent with courteous behavior.

"No." And I walked around him, headed toward the door.

His next mistake was grabbing my arm, and trying to force me to turn around. At this point, he found himself on the floor in am arm lock with my foot between his shoulder blades.

I told him that I would let him up if he would calm down, otherwise I would remove his arm and beat him with the stump.

As you can imagine, quite a cowd has gathered by this time, including a pimple-faced "manager" who could only sputter: "Sir, is there a problem?"

I told him that there most certainly was a problem. I told him his employee had assaulted a federal officer.

You could have heard a pin drop when I dropped that bomb on them.

I let the yellow-shirt up, and took my badge from my belt, showed it to the manager, and suggested we take our conversation to a less public area to straighten it out.

I suggested Tucson PD be called, as there may still be charges filed.

We went to the office where security tapes were kept, and the manager had to call another manager to come access the tape we needed.

A few minutes later, two officers from TPD arrived, I showed them my ID, and we chatted.

By the time it was all over, I had my money back from the cd's. I went to another retailer to buy it later. The yellow-shirt had the fear of God put in him by myself and TPD.

The moral of the story...don't touch the nice policeman!, be polite, and you better be damned sure of what you're doing before you grab someone.

 

[Edmond]

The moral of the story...don't touch the nice policeman!, be polite, and you better be damned sure of what you're doing before you grab someone.

I don't think they're allowed to touch people, are they? They're lucky you didn't file a lawsuit against them!

 

[Andrew Rothman]

The moral of the story...don't touch the nice policeman!, be polite, and you better be damned sure of what you're doing before you grab someone.

Unfortunately, you were only spared a trip to the slam yourself because of your shiny piece of tin, despite the fact that you were not there in an official capacity.

Don't get me wrong: I'm glad you taught the punk a lesson, but it sucks that he would have gotten away with his behavior had he grabbed me.

Had the yellow-shirt assaulted a mere mortal non-LEO such as me, and I had taken him down, I'd be the one getting a ride downtown.

And that double standard is infuriating.

 

[Sindawe]

I have to ask.

With respect to Sean85746's entertaining post, would this have worked out the same way if you were NOT a federal officer, but just another dude buying some CDs? As far as I can tell from your post, you were not in the performance of your official duties while there, but on your own time. I know the litany about LEOs always being on duty, but unless I know you're officially on duty and ID yourself as a LEO or in uniform, you're just a stanger to me, and to the Mr. Yellow-shirt in this case.

Perhaps the moral should be: Be polite, be darned sure of what your doing, and don't touch the nice person unless they touch you first or you know your case is air tight.

 

[P95Carry]

I'd be the one getting a ride downtown.

Matt - anyone? ... is that a total given?? Even if he laid hands on you first in that manner.?

 

[RGO]

With the proliferation of "self-scheckout" lines, the door checker becomes far more vital as even "good" people become tempted to not-quite-scan everything.

Then pay for more checkout cashiers. Several problems solved.

Ultimately, it's private property. If you don't like their process, don't go.

Agreed, however, I thought their process was to sell me goods in exchange for money. Liberty can be left intact in this process.

I'm also curious about what would happen to a non-LEO in Sean85746's situation. It was a good read, in any event.

 

[R.H. Lee]

With respect to Sean85746's entertaining post, would this have worked out the same way if you were NOT a federal officer, but just another dude buying some CDs?

Nope.

 

[DT Guy]

Everyone should be aware of the variations in state law regarding this topic.

I've been involved in this industry for many years, and much (perhaps most) of what has been posted is not applicable in the state I work in. Some of it is also, if I dare say, injudicious.


Larry

 

[Sean85746]

In Arizona, he'd have been charged with assault.

 

[Edmond]

I think it would be total BS that I would get charged if some guy lays his hand on me and I defend myself. It's a reaction that if someone touches us like that unexpectedly, we defend ourself.

I thought store personnel were told to not touch anyone unless it was to defend themself?

 

[CannibalCrowley]

Matt - anyone? ... is that a total given?? Even if he laid hands on you first in that manner.?

Well, according to TheFederalistWeasel if you were in Georgia the cops would "beat the brakes off you" and then take you to jail. Apparently in Georgia what the the employee tried to do to Sean85746 was make a "legal" (according to TheFederalistWeasel) citizen's arrest.

Here's his response to what would happen if someone tried to leave the store and was assaulted/"arrested" by a store employee.

But the simple fact is in my state of GA you do what you are suggesting you would do and you will be the one going to jail.

Especially when it come to pass that you in fact did not steal anything but instead of acting like a sane, normal human being you decided to nut up and cause a scene creating a problem, yes that is exactly how the courts here in GA would see it, how do I know this???

Because I am a cop, I see it everyday.

Judges abhor stupidity almost as much as the abhor criminals, especially when the stupidity of one person places the other party in a situation where they have to use force, any force to effect a arrest or detention.

Just like a cop shooting an unarmed man because he jumps out of a car with a coat over his hand pointing it like he has a gun.

Foolish!

If he's correct that just gives me one more reason to never go to Georgia.

 

[why_me]

Georgia l;aw enforcement

Here is a link to this and all stories with clayton countys new sheriff.
Very entertaining and informative
http://www.news-daily.com/shared-content/search/index.php?search=go&o=0&l=&s=&r=&q=VICTOR+HILL


Under tight security, sheriff rearranges staff

By Ed Brock
With armed "observers" stationed on the roof of the Clayton County Jail Complex, the county's new sheriff spent his first day on the job rearranging his command structure

By mid-morning Sheriff Victor Hill decided not to reinstate 16 members of the Sheriff's Department command staff and he was still making more changes.

Hill confirmed that his "observers" on the roof were armed, but he wouldn't say if they had rifles. Their role, he said, was to watch for trouble and report it to the patrol cars below.

"Any time you don't reinstate somebody, emotions run high," Hill said.
According to a press release issued by Bell, the discharged employees complained about how they were treated.

"The employees told Bell they were herded into an area of the jail where they thought they were going to be sworn in. Instead, they stated, their badges and equipment were stripped from them and they were then escorted off the premises in a prison van," according to the press release.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've never seen or heard any local stories about door-checker problems or cop problems in Thomasville, Georgia. That's definitely in a part of Georgia which has folks who would not have needed costumes or makeup to have bit parts in "Deliverance". My wife's home has been there, all her life. We've been married fifteen years (second marriage), and I've spent about a third or so of these years, over there.

I had the Wally-thing bleep at me one day. I didn't know what it was, at first. I looked around. I looked in the bag. Didn't see anything that should have caused a bleep. I looked over at the welcome-lady and shrugged; she shrugged; I walked on out of the store.

This all really seems like a tempest in a teapot. I've met a few of the local LEOs in T'ville; no different from some of my LEO buddies here in Texas.

Art

 

[c_yeager]

The only place that I have ever been "door checked" in my life is at Costco. I pay a membership there and I knew all about the door checking when I signed up so I can't complain too loudly about that.

If i knew about a store that had such a policy that I didnt like, I simply wouldnt shop there. If you walk into a store that you KNOW does this door checking thing then I don't really see how much you get to complain about it. If you don't like it, dont go there.

Now, those gate buzzers are a whole nuther story. They go off so often for so many reasons that I don't honestly think that they amount to any quantity of suspicion these days. I just walk right through them.

The standard around here is that a shoplifter is only to be detained if they were under constant observation from the time they took the item till the time that they left the store. Under those circumstances it is perfectly legal to use force to detain them untill the arrival of authorites. Loss prevention people carry handcuffs for this purpose.

On the other hand mistakes do in fact happen. It appears that some members of this board want to take an honest mistake and turn it into a felony simply because they are "tough". Don't be suprised if that lands you in trouble regardless of wether or not you did in fact steal something. If a security person approaches you and you start behaving a manner that is PERCIEVED as threatening (yelling and scaring the hell out of the other shoppers is a bad sign) then that person is in a good position to argue that they felt threatened enough to detain you by force. In the end it is going to come down to a judgement call by the police as to who goes to jail. If they have a calm and collected store employee on one hand and a sputtering lunatic on the other, who do you think is going to jail?

Just because the other guy is wrong doesnt make you right. It is quite possible for EVERYONE to be wrong in any given situation. Usually the person that is more wrong ends up in trouble.

 

[DRZinn]

If a security person approaches you and you start behaving a manner that is PERCIEVED as threatening (yelling and scaring the hell out of the other shoppers is a bad sign) then that person is in a good position to argue that they felt threatened enough to detain you by force.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone advocate that kind of behavior. If anyone did, most of us didn't. "Keep walking" is about the extent of most of the advice.

 

[moby clarke]

As a current Target LP person, I can tell you that shoplifting does in fact affect you. You like to pay higher prices? Then do not be courtious to the LP staff. Further, if one of our plain clothes people stops you and you refuse in my store, you will find your self flat on your stomach with your hands cuffed quicker than you can say "Please do not hurt me." Further, the local LEO's will enjoy the fact that you resisted a couple of folks just doing their job and made them get physical with you. You, on the other hand, will not enjoy the LEO's. So everyone talks tough on the net, but in reality, most people are in fact polite and allow me to do my job. But I do enjoy those who don't. Being over 6' and 300 lbs does have its advantages.

PS. I am not a teenager who knows nothing.

 

[Flyboy]

As a current Target LP person, I can tell you that shoplifting does in fact affect you. You like to pay higher prices? Then do not be courtious to the LP staff. Further, if one of our plain clothes people stops you and you refuse in my store, you will find your self flat on your stomach with your hands cuffed quicker than you can say "Please do not hurt me." Further, the local LEO's will enjoy the fact that you resisted a couple of folks just doing their job and made them get physical with you. You, on the other hand, will not enjoy the LEO's. So everyone talks tough on the net, but in reality, most people are in fact polite and allow me to do my job. But I do enjoy those who don't. Being over 6' and 300 lbs does have its advantages.

Moby:

I don't like paying higher prices. I support theft reduction measures. I do not support having my personal effects violated by somebody with no right to do so (hint: that would be you). As far as being "flat on my stomach with [my] hands cuffed," well, you bring it on, and I'll bring witnesses with hidden video cameras. Your 6'+ and 300lbs are going to be mighty cramped on the witness stand and/or behind the defendant's table. I'll be polite when I say "no," but I assure you, unless you have a warrant, that "no" is going to be final.

I don't get to Minnesota often, but if you'll tell me which store you work, I'll make it a point to stop by; alternatively, come on out to my store in Oklahoma (which, BTW, just happens to be where the incident I described took place; no, I haven't been back. They've lost a good customer, probably for life.)

 

[Sindawe]

As a current Target LP person, I can tell you that shoplifting does in fact affect you. You like to pay higher prices? Then do not be courtious to the LP staff. Further, if one of our plain clothes people stops you and you refuse in my store, you will find your self flat on your stomach with your hands cuffed quicker than you can say "Please do not hurt me." Further, the local LEO's will enjoy the fact that you resisted a couple of folks just doing their job and made them get physical with you. You, on the other hand, will not enjoy the LEO's. So everyone talks tough on the net, but in reality, most people are in fact polite and allow me to do my job. But I do enjoy those who don't. Being over 6' and 300 lbs does have its advantages

Moby:

I don't like shoplifters, nor do I like paying higher prices as a result of their theft, but this in no way means I support being treated as a possible thief after I've just purchased good from a retailer. Such behavior is not acceptable by a merchant, and WILL loose them my business, and prompt me to tell others of their unfriendly behavior. See my earlier post on this topic. I too will be polite (or at least civil) with "No", but No means exactly that. If you should chose to escalate the situation, well...

Does Target post this policy of customers surrendering their privacy and control of their personal property for all potential customers to see before entering their store? More importantly, does Target Corporate Office support YOUR talking tough on the Internet? Lets find out, shall we? If they do, then YOU have just lost 'em a regular customer, and gained them on one very vocal and opinioned detractor.

 

[only1asterisk]

This thread is certainly makes me think twice about the character and maturity of some of our senior members.


David

 

[Sindawe]

This thread is certainly makes me think twice about the character and maturity of some of our senior members.

Well, THAT certainly is a nebulous statement. Care to elaborate so the rest of us have an idea what your stance on this topic is?

 

[Art Eatman]

Anybody ever notice how threads of over three pages tend to become absolutely underwhelming as to the quality of discourse?

Art

 

[Art Eatman]

Reopened per rational request. But my tolerance for Internet Macho, twisting of meanings and personal insults is declining...

, Art

 

[R.H. Lee]

Further, if one of our plain clothes people stops you and you refuse in my store, you will find your self flat on your stomach with your hands cuffed quicker than you can say "Please do not hurt me." Further, the local LEO's will enjoy the fact that you resisted a couple of folks just doing their job and made them get physical with you. You, on the other hand, will not enjoy the LEO's.

Start circulating your resume right away. With this kind of attitude you won't be in your current profession much longer.