Department store security authority

[Flyboy]

Just re-read my post after a good night's sleep. I can see where I might be reasonably suspected of "Internet Machismo." Such was not my intent; I meant to point out that such policies, if true, are foolish. In fact, such policies could easily be used to fund my retirement, effective immediately. My apologies if it came across any other way; I intended no such thing.

That said, I still take exception to being implicitly called a thief, having my integrity questioned, and being forced to prove my innocence.

 

[only1asterisk]

Care to elaborate so the rest of us have an idea what your stance on this topic is?

I once knew a older gentleman of the finest caliber, a Marine at Iwo Jima, a retired firefighter, a respected member of his church and community. When his fixed income could no longer meet his wife’s medical needs he began to look for work. Nobody would hire him, except WalMart. He despised it, but he put on the clown vest and stood at the front door. He doesn’t need to be called a lackey, a “door drone†or “wannabe-authority-figureâ€. He was a great man who was humble enough to do what circumstances demanded of him.

The teenage cashiers at Kmart, the loss prevention guy at Lowes and the middle age waitress at Outback are people. Anyone who mistreats, disrespects or judges them because of thankless work they do to support themselves or their family deserves to take their turn wearing the stupid vest standing at the door of Walmart. Many of these people could be on welfare if they wanted, but chose to work at whatever they can find instead.

What would it hurt you to take a second and show some courtesy?


David

 

[carebear]

Art,

Ya sure you want to give reason free rein?

 

[Edmond]

David,

That's a very good point and I think a lot of us here just don't think that way. I don't treat those people with disrespect.

In fact, I just bought a laptop from Best Buy today and it's pretty common knowledge that they check your receipt at the door. The clerk even tells you, "Just keep your receipt out because he'll check it at the door." They don't do that for small stuff like CD's or video games but they do check the big stuff.

I walked up to the guy, laid the stuff down and said, "I'm going to go get my car real quick. Can I leave this here?" He said, "Sure thing." I left it there, went to get my car and came back inside. He said, "You're all set to go. Have a nice day, sir." I said thank you and left.

Treat people how you'd like to be treated. Defeat his aggressiveness in the flow, like water!

 

[Fairlane63]

only1asterisk's post reminded me of the situation at my local Wal-Mart-- the door checkers are senior citizens 90% of the time. I've thought that maybe the reason for this is that many people would find it harder to be rude to an elderly person than they would a teenager or middle-aged person. But here's my problem...

Three times in the last few years, I've activated the door alarm as I was leaving with paid-for merchandise. The first two times, the door person went through all of my stuff as I stood there embarrassed while all the entering/exiting customers looked at me like I was some sort of shoplifting pond scum. The first time, it turned out there was an "alarm sticker" under the plastic child-seat of the cart. The second time, I had exchanged a clock (an "alarm" clock, no less) and apparently the girl in the clock section didn't deactivate the alarm tag. I was a little steamed both times, but I just couldn't bring myself to tell the door checker to "stuff it" and just leave-- who could be rude to an elderly person who didn't cause either one of these problems? But I am getting a little tired of being embarrassed this way so...

After the second "alarm incident" I resolved that in the future, when this alarm goes off, I'll just keep on walking and not let myself get into the situation where my bags are getting searched. I know I didn't steal anything and that alarm is not my problem. I got a chance to try this out just recently. My stepfather and I paid for a pellet rifle at the sporting goods counter, and, sure enough, the alarm went off. My stepfather didn't even notice it and we just kept walking. About twenty yards into the parking lot, a W-M employee came to the door and shouted to us-- I just waved and kept on walking and that was the end of it. Problem solved. Not the perfect solution, but this is how I'll try to handle this problem in the future and hopefully there'll be a minimum of problems for everyone.

I worked retail at Winn-Dixie for nine years, so I can appreciate the hassles of dealing with the shopping public, but Wal-Mart really needs to do something about those alarms.

-Chris W.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

What would it hurt you to take a second and show some courtesy?

I tend to show people at least the same level of courtesy they show me.

However, I will not willingly submit to a search on the false presumption that I, like everyone else they stop, am a thief.

My beef is not with the kind old gent (or at my local Sam's Club, the 60-year-old, 4'10" lady) at the door, but with the policy he or she is following.

It is wise to be aware of state laws; some states allow merchants a distressing degree of permission to violate shoppers' rights.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

What would it hurt you to take a second and show some courtesy?

The ones who aren't treated with coutesy often haven't treated customers with the same. Go back and read Sean85746's post. Should he have treated that person with courtesy? Many LP people have the same additude, is it any wonder that many people don't hold a very high opinion of them.

 

[SkyDaver]

We just bought a DVD/VCR player at Wal-mart

I lifted it out of the cart far enough for the cashier to scan it, and put it back in.

We set off the alarm as we were walking out, and a Little Old Lady politely asked us to stop, saying that she guessed that the cashier did not deactivate the tag.

She wanded the DVD player, to deactivate the tag, and wrote down the cashier's info from the receipt.

The LOL was polite and friendly, and I cooperated.

If LOL had not been polite and friendly, I probably would have cheefully waved and said no thanks, and kept on walking

 

[XavierBreath]

Thanks for reopening the thread Art.

This kind of makes me think of another instance last week. Three gentlemen were just doing their job in New Orleans at the Razzoo Club and Patio. They forcibly restrained a young man until police arrived. When the police arrived, the young man was dead. These three gentlemen are now facing charges of murder. True, they were bouncers, but what's the difference? Their employer gave them license to forcibly restrain a person. Now their employer is liable as well. Yes, it was videotaped. If you have not yet seen it on the news, you will.

The best policy is to keep your hands to yourself.

edited to add: I went searching for a news article on the web that mentioned the charges, buy could not find any. I am 99% sure I heard about these charges on the 6:00 news last night though.

 

[Cosmoline]

Up here I believe they can attempt to either hold you for police or ask you leave (trespassing).

\

I set the alarm off all the time at Fred's. Their security people put them all over the place, and the clerks often miss a tag or two. But I just keep walking. I keep hoping they will try to hold me for questioning, but so far they haven't.

The only time I was stopped was a Wal-Mart, where a guy at the door was checking receipts. I let him have my receipt, then continued walking out. His brain imploded, and he tried to chase after me with the receipt to give it back. I ignored him

 

[Cosmoline]

Further, if one of our plain clothes people stops you and you refuse in my store, you will find your self flat on your stomach with your hands cuffed quicker than you can say "Please do not hurt me."

This is what I keep hoping they will do, but sadly I have had no takers so far. Alaska affords store security no greater authority than any other private citizen in searching people. That means they do it at their own risk. And I never steal anything, so all they will find if they press matters and knock me down is a universe of trouble. They cannot be sued for violation of civil rights, but they can be sued for assault, false imprisonment, trespass to chattles, defamation, etc. Just like I could if I announced someone was a thief, tackled them and searched them on a false belief of theft.

 

[RGO]

The question for me is, is it morally wrong to refuse to submit to a voluntary search? I don't think so.

You can be polite and still refuse.

You can also submit to the search if you think it's warranted. If I set off an alarm, I volunteer (but am usually waved through). If I have a large item at Best Buy, I volunteer, because I really could have just picked it up without stopping to pay for it. If a Wal-Mart person bothers me over a six-pack of Coke, I keep walking.

BTW, the only place that I have had a problem with door checkers is at one particular Wal-Mart. I think it's that store's policy to check EVERYBODY, which is just insulting (treating everyone as a criminal). I don't go there anymore.

 

[DRZinn]

The teenage cashiers at Kmart, the loss prevention guy at Lowes and the middle age waitress at Outback are people. Anyone who mistreats, disrespects or judges them because of thankless work they do to support themselves or their family deserves to take their turn wearing the stupid vest standing at the door of Walmart.

I'm (We're?) not advocating mistreating, disrespecting, or judging of those people. I'll be courteous. Courtesy does not demand that I stop and let you look through my property on a general suspicion that I could have stolen something.

And no, your age/size/intimidating glare will not change the situation.

 

[Mark in California]

Retail Trade

I have set off alarms. Always had a clerck clear it up. My wife this last week set a alarm off coming into a store. I thought it was very funny, she did not even know the alarm was for her. The clerck just wanded her purchase to remove the active mode from the tag. I have never been accosted or treated with disrespect.

These alarms are just to give the stores a fighting chance to try and slow down shoplifting. This has never been a PIA.

Being in the security industry, I know if a shoplifting prevention team has made a determined to stop you, you will be taken into custody. (if you are armed and fight them you just added ADW to the charges) If they are wrong, they will be sued for mega bucks.

I am just glad my company does not have any contracts for retail trade jobs. Just getting the insurance to work these jobs is hard because the insurance companies do not like the liability.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Being in the security industry, I know if a shoplifting prevention team has made a determined to stop you, you will be taken into custody

Probably because they have you shoplifting on videotape. IIRC, you need to leave the store with the stolen goods first.

 

[Cosmoline]

At least here, it's no different than any other private property. They can ask to search you. You can refuse. They can then ask you to leave and not come back. You cannot refuse to do that. But they don't get to tackle you, beat you or confine you. If they think you have stolen something, they can report it. And they can certainly ASK to search you and demand you leave if you refuse. But that's as far as it should go.

 

[Cosmoline]

Obviously, though, unless the security guards are armed and threaten deadly force, you would not be allowed to use a deadly weapon in your defense. As I understand Alaska law at least, non-deadly force would be entirely appropriate for attempted assault on their part, after the appropriate demand for them to stop.

I suspect the reason I'm never tackled or stopped is because they have been watching me on the videos, and they know me as a regular customer who has never shoplifted. The smart ones will never rely on those alarm tags, that's for sure. The things are constantly setting the ringers off.

 

[spacemanspiff]

that sounds more like store policy cosmo. i know a handful of undercover store detectives, most of them are in other lines of work now though.

one guy, who worked the carrs aurora village, stepped down after he 'accidentally' broke a kids arm over some stolen merch.

the security at nordstom is also authorized to detain. since they did have radios and cell phones often they would be in contact with their manager or police dispatch and at least follow the thieves. on several occasions the lone security person on the floor would ask us employees for help, more as witness that they didnt rough up the thugs, instead of for muscle.

i've talked to one guy that used to work the floor at sportsmans warehouse. he quit because his boss wanted him to target youths primarily, who were stealing the cheap stuff worth only a couple bucks instead of the experienced thieves walking out with higher priced items.

 

[Edmond]

I hate to say it but who gets watched really depends on what they look like. Store security personnel stand out like a sore thumb, at least to me they do because I've worked in retail before.

I admit that they sometimes watch me. I'm a little 5'6", 130 pound Asian guy with khakis, a skull cap and a black down coat. Am I offended? Not at all, they can watch me all they want because I'm not stealing anything.

On another note, whenever I go into a place where there are sales people, I always get ignored! I guess I look too poor to buy anything! LOL.

 

[Sean85746]

LEGAL CITIZEN'S ARREST my rear end.

If probable cause does not exist, and it didn't. If the "security" personel did not see you conceal, and attempt to leave with any merchandise, in AZ it is NOT a citizen's arrest...PERIOD. It is AN ASSAULT.

I took umbrage at his attitude first. Then when he "squared off" in a confrontational manner, and I simply walked around him, and then grabbed my arm...that his second mistake of the day.

What can I say?

I will not ever, and I do mean EVER be manhandled by anyone, PERIOD. If you want to talk to me...be polite and I will kill you with kindness in return. I hold doors open for people if we are entering or leaving an establishment because it is POLITE. And I NEVER, not even when was still active LEO grabbed anyone without cause or justification.

I have always been a firm believer in leaving a person's dignity intact...right up to the point where they forfeited it.

I apologize if I have offended anyone's sensibilities (Moondoggie), but you what, no one has to be a sheep. You are under no obligation to submit to a search without cause. I know the 4th Ammendment is dying, but it ain't dead yet.

So...this is the last time I will visit this forum...apparantly my kind isn't wanted here.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm 99% sure in Alaska, unless they've changed the law in the past few years, store security guards have absolutely no quasi-law enforcement status. Maybe company policy says they can detain people, but they do so at their own risk just like any other land owner. They are emphatically NOT LEO's and they cannot order anyone to do anything other than leave the property. Well, they can try but a smart person who has done nothing wrong is entitled to ignore their demands and leave.

 

[carebear]

You worked at Nordie's spiff? They actually let you out on the floor with the hoity-toity folk?

 

[spacemanspiff]

thats probably the catch. non-criminals dont have much to worry about, but if we did have something unpaid for under our jacket when we exit the store, the last thing we gotta worry about if we get tackled by a storedick is whether or not it was lawful for him/her to hold us until LEO could arrive to place us under arrest.

edit - downstairs in 'the Rail', i fit in perfectly. had the hip-fly mohawk action going, wasnt a tubby bastid either. this was back in the day when the guys they hired were all schmucks but all the females hired were 15's on the scale of 1-10.

 

[carebear]

Oh, I remember...

My job interview seemed to go well. Might be spending less time online soon.

 

[Mark in California]

Retail Trade

A shoplifter prevention team will be made up of two or more people. I was on one once that had seven. (five in uniform standing in front of the door where the suspect would came out) Would you beleave we actually caught someone dumb enough to try walk between us to get out. It was like we had appeared out of thin air when the primary undercover officer came out the door asked: "Sir I need to see your receipt." At that point he tried to run, and we all just grabbed a piece of him, handcuffed him and called the police.

You are correct, you eye ball them from the point they concealed an item to all the way out the door where you make the stop. You never make a stop solo, you always have your partner with you. These people are not "customer service types", but security enforcement officers working retail trade.
If stopped by a team, you already have at least two possibly more security officers around you. At best you will be given one chance to stop. At that point whatever force is nessary to arrest you will be used.

As a added bonus, if one of the officer is a full time police officer and you fight him, you just commited assualt on a officer. (In Humboldt County all agencies consider a full time LE officer working as a security officer a conflict of interest and forbid it)

However, if a reserve officer identifies himself as a police officer and you fight, you also could be charged with assualt on a officer. So you had better listen to what they tell you.


Some are paid by the hour. Some work on contract and sue the thief in court for damages. (California allows stores to sue shoplifters for the cost of security plus a set amount. The security company enters into a contract with the store to provide free security in return for the store turning over the right to sue the security company)